| Author | Message | ||
     Steveford |
What did the Mobil rep say as far as using their gear oil in place of SportTrans fluid? | ||
| Buellistic |
Steveford: HDI SCREAMN'EAGLE SYC3 is the best to use in your transmission... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Blake |
LaFayette, Please, you're going to start bleeding orange and black. LOL! | ||
| Blake |
Ar, That's strange. The Mobil engineer I talked to said that 40 and 50 weight oils are not subject to limitations on anti-wear additives. He said that only the "energy conserving" 30 weights and 20 weights were subject to the anti-wear additive limitations. He did say that that could change at some time in the future. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Blake, not sure but that is what I was told. I guess he could be wrong. He said that is what makes the v twin oil a few dollars more but also worth it in an air cooled high temp engine. Steveford, I did not ask him anything about the sporttrans fluid, but he did say that the 75w90 mobil gear oil is what he would use in the sportster tranny. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Something to keep in mind : the higher the temp= the higher the viscosity The higher the load =the higher the viscosity the higher the rpm= the lower the viscosity. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Does anybody know what the "W" stands for in the naming of different grades of oil? Example 10w40. And no it is not weight. It stands for winter! This explains the 10 when the oil is cold and once the oil is warmed up the viscosity goes to 40. In the south, changing viscosity oil is not that important, but up north where the temps change so much it is very important for initial startup.( correct me if I am wrong Blake!!) | ||
| Aaron |
Viscosity goes up with temp? I thought oils thinned out with temperature increases? The way it was explained to me, a multi-weight like a 10W-40 has a viscosity similar to what a 10 weight oil would have at low temp and a viscosity similar to what a 40 weight oil would have at high temp. That's different than saying the viscosity goes up with temp, it's actually saying it doesn't thin out as much with temp as a straight 10W would. | ||
| Blake |
You are correct. The "W" stands for "Winter" use. Not 100% sure, but I think the first viscosity grade is relative to 32oF I am certain though that the 2nd grade refers to the oil's relative viscosity at 212oF. So a 20W50 is basically a 20 weight oil that maintains a viscosity equal to that of a straight 50 weight oil at 212oF. Here's something that might warrant repeating... Why use a 75W90 gear oil when HD/Buell now recommend what would seem to be a much less viscous 20W50 engine oil? Answer... the viscosity grading scale for transmission lubricants is completely different than that used for engine oils. In fact a 75W90 transmission oil falls within the same viscosity grade range as a 20W50 or even 10W40 engine oil. HUHWHAZAT? The two viscosity grading scales were intentionally made different and easily distinguishable (no one ever uses 40 weight tranny oil or 90 weight engine oil) to avoid confusion between the two. Why? Transmission oil contains lots of extreme pressure additives that if exposed to the combustion chamber, cause the formation of really really nasty deposits and stuff. Less worrysome is that the engine oil, lacking the EP additives of the tranny lube, would not adequately protect a manual transmission or differential. New transmissions in most motorcycles are designed to operate without the speical EP additives. Apparently the new HD synthetic is up to the task. I'm sticking with a purpose engineered synthetic tranny lube. | ||
| Blake |
I think he meant that the required engine oil base viscosity goes up with temperature, up with load, and down with rpm.  | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
That is correct Aaron. I wrote it wrong. When the oil is cold , you want a thinner oil(lower viscosity) so it will flow better. When the engine warms up , you will want the higher viscosity to protect against friction and high temps. This is the benifit of a multiweight oil.(to change its characteristics at different temps. for better protection.)Sorry if I am not explaining this right. Mineral oils begin to oxidize at 160 F. Every 18 degrees after this the oxidation rate doubles. This tells me that the only oil to run in a air cooled harley based engine would be synthetic. Synthetics do not begin to oxidize until closer to 250f and they remain a lot more stable at these temps. | ||
| Aesquire |
How much better are synthetics?...  2 stroke's run FAR less synth(50/100-1) than mineral oil (20-1). (last time I looked) I went H-D Syn3, engine & primary @ 500 mile service. (5 quarts) '01 M2 shifts better now. (will it ever shift as good as the Firebolt I test rode??) This thread suggested a different smelling oil for leak identification. Good idea!  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Aesquire, I missed the smell thing earlier in the thread but.. the synths have a decidely different smell than straight dino juice. The 75W90 Mobil One tranny juice REALLY smells different, almost a bad funky smell. Reminds me of old water contaminated differential grease. Except the Mobile One smell washes off, the differential grease smell NEVER comes out of anything. Hands or coveralls! Brad | ||
| Blake |
Attention! We will be moving the site to its own dedicated big bore server as well as implementing some significant BBS enhancements later this morning. The site will be offline starting between 8AM and 9AM. You may be able to continue to view the forum, but not post. If you are still getting the view-only forum by late afternoon, say 5PM, you might want to try refreshing your browser window and even shutting down and restarting your computer. If that doesn't work you might call your ISP, especially if it is a small local operation, and ask them to update their DNS (domain name server) files. In the mean time I've asked the guys at SacBORG if they would be gracious enough to host a temporary surrogate BadWeB forum on their site. Just be forewarned that there are some very... uh... antagonistic Buell hating trolls there. Hopefully they'll leave well enough alone. If not, feel free to humiliate them with truth and grace. If you don't see a surrogate BadWeB topic there, assume it was not to be. I cannot imagine that since in truth, BadWeB is the Father of SacBORG, our illegitimate son. Kinda like the Darth/Luke scenario in reverse. LOL. Anyway, Chop and Eeeeek are great guys as are most of the others who hang there, so wish our sys-admin luck and I hope to see you back here tomorrow afternoon. Blake | ||
| Blake |
Ar, As temperature changes, the viscosity of a multi-vis oil doesn't vary as MUCH as a straight grade oil. It does vary, just not as much. The multi-vis oil's actual viscosity does significantly decline with temperature, just not as much as a straight weight oil. A 20 weight oil at room temperature is far more viscous than a 50 weight oil at 200oF. Zat make sense? The oil does not gain viscosity as temperature increases. It just behaves more like higher viscosity grade oil would at those higher temperatures. Am I making ANY sense? | ||
| Blake |
The stink in gear lube is from the EP additives. | ||
| Buellistic |
Blake: RIGHT ON!!! W = weight... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Blake |
LaFayette has been assimilated. The "W" stands for "Winter" use. It's a common misconception that it stands for "weight." Do straight grade oils use the "W" nomenclature? | ||
| Jasonblue |
Could you XB riders tell me what oil filters everybody is using out there? Unless I'm blind the XB owners manual NEVER states what filter to use HD brand or any other. Never seen that in an owners manual before. Jason | ||
| Jprovo |
Anyone else notice that Castrol stopped selling Syntec in 20w50? They now sell a 5W50. I'm not too sure about running that grade of oil in my bike. 5W50 is under the recommended cold viscosity grade for the Blast, I usually only run 20w50 grade oil. At least I can rationalise Mobil-1 15W50 because it's between the 10W40 and 20W50 recommended grades by Buell. Any thoughts on using 5W50 oil? Who the heck specs out 5W50 for use in their engines anyways? James | ||
| Reepicheep |
You sure Jprovo? I just bought some Syntec 20w50 less then two weeks ago at a local NAPA... | ||
| Blake |
First number.. the lower the better for cold running. Second number indicates viscosity in hot running conditions. A 5W50 oil is thicker (more viscous) at room temperature than a straight 50 weight oil is at operating temperature. No worries. You would freak out if you knew the viscosity of a 50 weight oil when that oil is at operating temperature (~100oC) and compared it to the viscosity of a 5W50 oil at room temperature. Point being, even a 5W50 oil is thinner at operating temperature than it is at room temperature, and at operating temperature it has the same viscosity as a 20W50 oil. That make sense? | ||
| Jprovo |
Reep, I'm sure, check their website. There will be old stock lying around for awhile, but It's no longer being prduced. Blake, Thanks, I couldn't find a nice chart on the net that had kinematic viscosity vs temperature for the various oil weights. All I can friggin find are Amsiol ads! I wonder is my old fluid textbook sitting at work had that data. You wouldn't happen to have a link to a chart like that handy, would ya? Thanks, James | ||
| Blake |
I found the following...  The viscosity grades (weights) given for oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to actual viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific emperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and so on by the S.A.E. The "W" means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use. | ||
| Ryan_m2 |
I spoke to a parts guy at a H-D dealer today, and asked him about the H-D synthetic 20W-50 oil that can apparently be used in place of Sport-trans oil. He recommended that I not use it because of increased noise and that it may not have as much shear strength as the Sport-trans oil. Is there any validity to this? Does the H-D synthetic just not have enough EP additives because it is also used in the crankcase? Thanks, Ryan | ||
| Blake |
Ryan, Japanese bikes with twice the power of your Buell share oil among engine and transmission. James, Here's a better, more comprehensive viscosity comparison chart...  | ||
| Jprovo |
Blake, Thanks, my text only has SAE 10W, 30 and 10W30, ocatne, heptane, water.... no SAE 5W, 50 or 20W50. That little chart makes my decision much easier. I totally agree, I now have no problem running 5w50 or 0w50 for that matter. Thanks again, James BTW, where's you find that data? | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I really doubt there is a "need" for EP additives in a motorcycle gearbox. Tend to need them where there is more of a sliding contact than rolling contact. IE hypoid gears or worm gears. Not so much an issue here, but EP additives can be bad for bearings with polymer cages. Steve steve_s@ukbeg.com www.ukbeg.com/ | ||
| Smadd |
Perhaps a silly question. Please humor me. Does filter length (the long vs. shorty)have any bearing, even if very minute, on oil pressure?? Thanx! Steve | ||
| Blake |
Steve, Between pump and filter, yes. In the engine, no. The oil pump is a positive displacement pump, meaning that for every revolution, it will pump out a set amount of oil, no matter the pressure. Higher pressure just requires more power be fed to the pump. That said, all else being equal (filter media, bypass valve...) a larger filter will present less pressure drop compared to a smaller filter so the pressure between pump and filter could be effected by a larger or smaller oil filter. But what governs the oil pressure within the engine (pressure after the filter) is the flow rate and that will not change through the use of a different filter. edited by blake on June 22, 2003 |
