| Author | Message | ||
     Hoser |
In keeping with the correct topic................ , further discussion of oiling systems. A project I have been assisting with recently is a 96 S1 , which was one of the first in Canada and spent the early part of it's life as a lab rat / dyno mule ( now privately owned ) , is being converted to track use only and being raced in a new class at the regional level here , a spec class for twins. It was used for several track days last year and during one of those events suffered an oil pump drive gear failure , a new oil pump and drive gear was installed , schrappnel collected and the bike put back in service for a short time. Right now the bike is being exstensivly modified for racing duty , full bodywork , dual disc , engine rebuild / modification and such . The new oil pump drive gear which has very few hours on it is already showing signs of wear !!!! ( WTF ). This has been one the " design flaw " subjects that has been discussed here several times , and a solution has to be developed !! . S&S does not make a replacement gear for this application , the gear that was once available from Zippers is no longer available , the stock gear is all I know of as a service replacement !!! Some of you Engineer types , feel free to comment , but here's my theory on why this geqar is such a high wearing piece. One gear has ten teeth,the other having twenty teeth , the way these gears mesh is the nature of the wear . In the automotive world rear wheel drive vehicles use a ring and pinion gear in the rear axle , ratios as mentioned above are known as "hunting" gear ratios , known for wearing at a much higher rate than "non hunting" ratios. What I'm getting at here is someone has to develop a better drive system for these oil pumps!!!! , HD is quite busy developing new products , and yes they are making improvements to older products too , like gaskets , shifting issues etc. , I just wish they would address this problem. | ||
| Buellistic |
Hoser: What is the PART NUMBER on the OIL PUMP you are running in the engine?????????????????????????? In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Reepicheep |
LaFayette... I posted my part number for a badly worn gear a couple months back, and it was not the part number you suspected was related to a bad "batch. Hoser... Either you posted that same theory before, or somebody else did, either way it makes sense. One of the "perks" of pulling the oil pump to inspect the gear is that when you put it back, different teeth will likely mate. In a couple of posts, I suggested pulling the pump, inspecting the drive gear, and rotating the pump gear a quarter turn before reinserting. Don't know if this will help or not. On my badly worn gear, sitting right here on top of my monitor, I can see the tooth that would have gone first, it is visibly worn the most and obvious to the naked eye. The wear pattern is obviously non-uniform across the teeth. The oil pump is a breeze to pull. I don't remember if it is easy to pull the drive gear off the end of the pump or not. It IS a PITA to replace the drive gear. I would rather get a super soft oil pump side gear replacement that will protect the drive gear, even if I have to pull it and replace it every 8k miles or so. It is only a 15 minute job to pull it, and a 65 cent gasket. On the other hand, replacing the drive gear allowed me to note what must have been a manufacturing defect on my front exhaust cam (probably bad hardening), so I was able to replace that at the same time and avoid two possibly catastrophic failure modes for just three evenings work and less then $100, thanks to people that took the trouble to post their experiences and wisdom on the matter. | ||
| Hoser |
Reep: This board exists for people like us to share , learn and experience things , I have been crticized for my participation here ( by non participants ) but , I stongly believe the Internet to be a public place destined to be of service to all. The gear on the pump shaft , I have not tried to ever remove , any questionable parts simply need to be replaced ( & displayed on moniter with other schrapnel ), besides it's the worm gear on the pinion shaft that seems to be the worse off of the pair in this discussion. We need an Engineered solution to this , more ideas and then someone to build the parts. That cam you mentioned , I've not personaly observed in recent times. Gotta have supper now | ||
| Henrik |
Hoser; I think it's safe to say that we really appreciate your participation here  Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Henrik done said it! I'll take a Canadian "Hoser" over a Texas "Dawg" ANY day! Right LaFayette?  I've got a brand new '98 oil pump just waiting for me to get my arse in gear. Nallin Racing had the cams out not too long so I'll be surprised if the gears are noticeably worn. | ||
| Sarodude |
Speaking of oil pump drive gear failures, has anyone noticed if the XB or Blast suffer from such maladies? -Saro | ||
| Hoser |
I'll leave that up to you fella's ,XB's are a tough sell here , so,ooo not enough on the road just yet , I'm waiting to see what happens. | ||
| Buellistic |
Hoser: PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE!!! What is the PART NUMBER on the OIL PUMP you are running in the ENGINE... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Buellistic |
Blake: Make sure you put a screen over the upper hole in the oil pump where it sucks oil out of the cam gear cover(you will have to improvise this)... Now why would "i" say this, well here it is!!! The enginer who thought this oil pump modification forgot to put a screen over this hole... This is what happens to the oil pump with this slot when left uncoverd is: Metal from who knows where(maybe the oil pump drive gears when they start to go bad or some where else)and causes a heavy drag on the oil pump drive gears... "OR" this mystery metal locks the pump up to some extent(heavy drag) and the oil pump drive gears go bad... "ANOTHER THING" there is no "OIL FILTER" on the return line to the oil tank, therefore any msytery metal goes to the oil tank and back through the oil pump(take a magnet and see how much metal is in the bottom of your oil tank, you could be surprised)causing some more aditional oil pump drag helping the oil pump drive gears to fail... "FOOD FOR THOUGHT" In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Hoser |
LaFayette: I have been using #26204-98 , both my 96's have that one , the S2 being the most recent recipient , the S1 deserves to be inspected due to the age of that pump , it was updated -winter 97/98( no drive gear replacement ever , odometer reads 41,000km now ). Your comments above are valid , the screen idea was standard issue in the ironhead days as well as early XR 750'S. Another piss poor feature we should cover too is the chimpy little key on the pinion shaft , I suspect that to be another manufacturing cost savings ( lot's of those ). Earlier cranks had a splined pinion shaft and cam drive pinion , more rugged but more difficult to manufacture , High contact ratio cam drive gears are another cost saving measure but that one can be considered a benefit. To see what I mean there , look in the appendix at the back of a pre 2000 XL / BUELL parts catalog , the combination of gears ( Formally available ) is staggering , high contact gear drive eliminates the necessity of fitting all those gears to an appropriate gear cover and having to manufacture / inventory those components. Where this may lead someone who is not happy with the stock set up ?? , to the aftermarket , S&S cranks have the early splined pinion shaft which can be can be removed from the right flywheel and replaced if necessary , I think Sceamin eagle should be an option that be available to us , look at a genuine HD accessory catalog lately , Come on Harley , enough with the endless supply of big twin ( barge ) stuff , WE WANT More XL / Buell perfomance parts !!!!!! | ||
| Buellistic |
Hoser: Have a -98 oil pump in my 97S3T(INSTALLED IN 98)... Mileage is 60,648.15 as of last ride and all is well... BUT,"i" have changed the oil every 2k and use a magnet to get metal out of bottom of oil tank, PLUS have flushed(CLEANED OUT) oil tank... HDI gives us a basic product and we have to improvise to improve the product... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Henrik |
Spurgin oil cooler question: Does anyone have one mounted? I have one that I'm trying to fit onto the S2 on the left side horizontal frame tube just above the shifter. It looks like the hoses would need to be run on the inside of the frame tubes, but for the hoses to clear, the cooler needs to be rotated in toward the motor until it's just a mm or two from the rear cylinder. That doesn't seem to be enough clearance?? Any comments/suggestions? Henrik | ||
| Buellistic |
Henrik: For the "OIL COOLER" to be EFFICENT it has to be in the slip stream... OR you make a wind catcher as on the XB models... Be sure to put a THERMOSTAT that opens at 180 dedrees... If you want to do it RIGHT put on a COOLING FAN and a FORD motorcraft FL-1A oil filter to get your oil system to a 3 quart system... In buelling LaFayettte | ||
| Bomber |
henrik I've got a spurgin mounted in exactly the way you've outlined . . . . it lowered the oil temp 20 degree F during a trackday with ambient at 95+ . . . . I'm not convinced the cooling fan is necessary (highest temp seen at track day is 230, and then only for a short time) . . . . I'm running a Dyna long oil filter from HD . . .. . darned near a 3-quart system now . . . .. ping me with any questions | ||
| Blake |
A small oil cooler mounted out of the way with a small but powerful electric fan? Seems like you could mount it just about anywhere that way. Sorry Henrik, probably too much for you to assemble and integrate prior to your trip. I wonder if header wrap would help to cut down on the heat in the cylinder heads. | ||
| Buellistic |
Blake: Your right again!!! Not only does the wraped header pull the "HEAT" form the heads it also pulls(IT SUCKs,oppsite of BLOWER which BLOWs) the intake charge in to fill the cylinders... If you have a "RACER" a COOLING FAN is really not required... Remember for every 12 pounds you add in weight you loose one rolling "HP" and for every 12 pounds you can remove you gain one free rolling "HP"... "NOTE": These do not show up on a DYNO!!! In buelling Lafayette | ||
| Hootowl |
Fan is nearly useless while motoring down the road. Stuck in traffic, it helps quite a bit. I have been thinking about putting a fan on my oil cooler, as it sits sideways near the battery, and out of the stream of air. Only thing is, do I make it blow on my leg or the battery? | ||
| Henrik |
Thanks guys - the Spurgin came with all the hoses and hardware to install. Even mention the mounting location on Buells. But when I try to mount it there and route the hoses where I think they ought to go, the fins of the cooler are awfully close to the rear cylinder. There is however the 2 mm clearance, but with engine vibration I'd like it to be a bit more - even with the uni-planar mounting But Blake you got me thinking; what about mounting it under the tail. There may be enough airflow there. Just an idea - that will not happen before the trip. Will the hoses get too long for proper flow?? Henrik | ||
| Buellistic |
Henrik: If you mount the oil cooler under the tail section, in the rain you will get WATER COOLING... Hootowl: An OIL COOLER not in the slip stream is usless,"BUT" a COOLING FAN will some what be of an aid in cooling while in motion... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Jim_witt |
I'd mount the damn thing on top of your helment. No air flow problem there (cooling wise). Plenty of room for a fan too (if you wanted) plus it would help if you're stuck in traffic. Cheers, -JW:> (Message edited by jim_witt on May 19, 2003, %time) | ||
| Bomber |
all those hoses to the helmet would be a pain at gas stops though . . . .. how about using some velcro and putting the cooler on your knee, like a puck? | ||
| Hootowl |
Buellistic, That may be true, but since the fan is thermostatically controlled, and it has NEVER come on while I was moving, it is only useful while stuck in traffic. | ||
| Henrik |
Bomber; hoses would be a problem indeed. Not sure the knee location would be an improvement though. Imagine at gas stops gracefully trying to swing your leg over the bike, promptly getting your leg tangled in hoses. Not pretty. I guess I could just trim down the offending cooler fins a few mm. Blake; care to calculate loss of cooling if I do that? Henrik (I'm just kidding - really! ) | ||
| Bomber |
Henrik the spurgin cooler fits on my Y2K Ma Duece the way you've described, but you might consider (since your scoot is different), mounting it with the hoses routed outboard . . .would it really be in the way there? | ||
| Bads1 |
Henrik I also have a SPURGIN mounted and like Bomber said I have it mounted outward a hair and it doesn't bother with my leg at all nor doe's it ever get real hot just warm.I did it this way I guess just because I didn't like it so close to the rear cylinder.  | ||
| Buellistic |
Hootowl: Have a manual over ride switch on my Cooling Fan, it comes on by my comand or the temp SW... In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Jim_witt |
John advised: ...... all those hoses to the helmet would be a pain at gas stops though ...... Not at all, that's WHY they make quick-disconnects and shut-off valves. -JW:> | ||
| Bads1 |
Henrik here's a pic but not a real close up.  | ||
| Henrik |
Thanks Dana; I'll give it a try. Henrik |
