| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
I'd sure like to see a copy of the "revised" 2009 FIM WSBK rulebook. I sure cannot find it on the official WSBK web site. The one Elvis linked to above states the following: 2.9.2.1 FIRST TIME APPLICATION FOR HOMOLOGATION What you are saying is that FIM changed the above rules at the last minute to accomodate one specific manufacturer so that they could participate and add to the field, generating more interest, more competition, and a better overall entertainment spectacle for the fans? But what DMG did is so horribly wrong and unfair? Buell had thousands of bikes on the street and fielded a race version prepared by Buell Racing and they made it available with full factory support to any AMA SBK racer/team who wanted to campaign one. I'd like to race one of those BMW WSBK machines. Where do I get one and how much will it cost? Answer, I cannot get one, if I could it will cost a heck of a lot more than $40K and I'll have no assurance of factory support. Same for all the other factories. The gyrations of logic that some are willing to perform in order to denigrate DMG and Buell racing while apologizing for WSBK sure do confound common sense. | ||
| Elvis |
Diablo, You're dancing around the issue, but not producing any evidence that the rules have not always required that production units be available prior to the racing season. The ultimate minimum units requried have been adjusted, but the rules prior to 2009 did not allow bikes that had not yet been produced as production models to compete as you have indicated but not offered evidence. At least that's my understanding and belief, but I am certainly interested in any evidence you can find to the contrary. (Message edited by elvis on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
What street bike did BMW tear down in order to build their SBK racing machines? So what they fielded was a purpose built, race only, factory built Superbike racing machine, something specifically prohibited by the rules, that is if we use the knuckleheads' favored ultra-rigidly strict hyper-inflexible interpretation of homologation requirements. How can a racing machine be based on a street bike, if there is no such street bike in existence? What BMW did was to build a racing machine first, then figure out how to make it into a street bike. That sure seems like a gross and blatant violation of the spirit of the rules to me. But if it is good for the racing, and the BMW doesn't come out as an overdog, I'm all for it. Flexibility in the rules interpretation in favor of better entertainment is fine with me. But I'm more interested in the racing than carving out a rulebook in stone and painting it in entirely in black and white. That would be goofy. (Message edited by blake on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Wait a minute..... Does any of us think that FIA will miss the chance of allowing a 1125RR in WSBK, if a team would like to race it ?? FIA is not stupid. They will be more than happy to have an American built bike in the series. I think that they will actually help, the way they helped Aprilia and BMW. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I meant FIM...... | ||
| Fast2win |
That's what I'm hoping for. Whether EBR can bend their ear and get someone to field a team is another thing. Would 185hp be enough. Maybe? | ||
| Diablo1 |
Does any of us think that FIA will miss the chance of allowing a 1125RR in WSBK, if a team would like to race it ?? No, it won't happen because WSBK isn't the DMG, and you have to make 2000 bikes. Wishing otherwise, isn't going to make it happen. EBR has a better chance of fielding a bike in Motogp - those rules don't require production bikes.}} | ||
| Anonymous |
WSBK allows bending of the rules to unbelievable levels if you actually know, and don't just read magazines. Do not believe Diablo, he knows not the facts. No way has Ducati ever built the bike witt the content required. But with a nod and a wink, and their desire to bring in crowds, the rules get bent. In fact they were bent well over backwards for BMW. But big money talks. | ||
| Court |
>>>The truth is in fact that HRC for years had provided their factory Honda racers with special built HRC race-ony Superbike machines. Is that the same Honda that got caught cheating this year? Has the BMW ever been produced yet? It appears to be like the XR1200 . . . always "any minute now" but has it actually arrived. . . can I go buy one tomorrow? | ||
| Diablo1 |
WSBK allows bending of the rules to unbelievable levels if you actually know, and don't just read magazines. Do not believe Diablo, he knows not the facts. No way has Ducati ever built the bike wit thecontent reqired. So how would you know? Care to name a part or two in a Ducati that doesn't comply with the rules? Ducati's biggest advantage in WSBK is that they are the only 1200cc twin, and the rules have been adjusted in the offseason to make sure the twin remains competitive with the 4-cylinder liter bikes.} | ||
| Blake |
"Does any of us think that FIA will miss the chance of allowing a 1125RR in WSBK, if a team would like to race it ?? FIA is not stupid. They will be more than happy to have an American built bike in the series. I think that they will actually help, the way they helped Aprilia and BMW." I agree. Good grief, back when Corser was riding for them, Aprilia had their SBK entry fitted with Cosworth engines. Yeah the rules have changed since then. But it shows the level to which FIM will go to get more competition on the track. It really is strange how some think that racing should be exclusionary. What kind of a way to run a successful entertainment business is that. Court, Actually no, the Honda cheaters were not HRC but American Honda and the racing team here. So no, we cannot put that on HRC. American Honda chose to ditch HRC a few years back. They've been building their own bikes for a few years now. I think they've won maybe two AMA superbike races since that time. | ||
| Blake |
Diablow1, How do you know what you are claiming? Far as I can tell you have ZERO firsthand experience in the field and are just making stuff up with ZERO factually backup. I can personally vouch for anony. He/she has more hands-on personal experience in the field of professional racing than anyone here. (Message edited by blake on December 03, 2009) | ||
| Diablo1 |
I agree. Good grief, back when Corser was riding for them, Aprilia had their SBK entry fitted with Cosworth engines. Yeah the rules have changed since then. But it shows the level to which FIM will go to get more competition on the track. You forgot to mention that Aprilia built and sold 150 Cosworth engined RSVR-SP bikes in 1999 to meet the homologation rules in place at the time. Do you think EBR will build and sell 150 1125RRs?} | ||
| Diablo1 |
How do you know what you are claiming? Far as I can tell you have ZERO firsthand experience in the field and are just making stuff up with ZERO factually backup. I can personally vouch for anony. He/she has more hands-on personal experience in the field of professional racing than anyone here. I can tell you I haven't torn down a WSBK Ducati. Now, can you tell me that anonymous has? Logic tells you that the other competitors and big-money sponsors would not tolerate cheating by Ducati and collusion with WSBK organizers. Alstar Suzuki complained earlier this year about Aprilia, but they could not back up their charges with proof. I didn't hear any such charges made against Ducati.} | ||
| Liquorwhere |
WSBK allows bending of the rules to unbelievable levels if you actually know, and don't just read magazines. Do not believe Diablo, he knows not the facts. No way has Ducati ever built the bike witt the content required. But with a nod and a wink, and their desire to bring in crowds, the rules get bent. In fact they were bent well over backwards for BMW. But big money talks. Don't know about anyone else, but I would give your posts more merit if you used your name. If you cannot use your name, maybe you shouldn't post. | ||
| Blake |
I personally vouch for anony's integrity. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I couldn't give 2 shits less about WSBK. This is about Moto-GT. Any Buell teams plan on switching to DSB or Supersport classes? Seems weird they'll now allow expert club racer run Supersport. | ||
| Anonymous |
Well, actually Aprilia did not build and sell 150 Cosworth motored bikes. And if Buell had been allowed to build 150, we'd have been there. But the rules of now are 2,000, going to 3,000. Unless of course you are a company like BMW... But as someone mentioned in an earlier post, I guess since we're gone that proves we weren't worth a crap anyway. Kinda a pathetic level to drop to...but that figures. | ||
| Trojan |
It's that simple. The protests I'm seeing are not based on anything but some strange chip on the shoulder against Buell Racing. Maybe it just hurts too much to see a competitive Superbike employing a ZTL brake system dicing with a race winning Ducati 1198R and beating the big factories just one race from its debut outing? This has NOTHING to do with Buell racing or their ZTL brake that I couldn't care less about (more ammo for the zealots  ). The 1125RR has NOT beaten a race winning 1198R either (check the specs of the Ducati before making claims. Just because it is red doesn't make it a factory Ducati. It may have beaten a restricted 1098 in AMA format, but that is NOT the same as a full superbike spec 1198 by any means. The debate about whether the 1125RR is a'competitive superbike' outside of the restrictive AMA rules is a moot point anyway, because it would NOT be legal for WSB/BSB or any other domestic superbike championship. As for Anony's claim that Ducati haven't built any legal bikes for WSB. Please provide some evidence of that because I'm sure the FIM would tend to disagree, having carried out strenuous, detailed and lengthy inspections to make sure factories comply with the rules. Likewise for BMW. Blake may like to say that they built the race bike first and then tried to develop a road bike, but that is wrong. BMW developed the bike as a road and race package at the same time. They were required to build a certain number of units BEFORE the bike was allowed into WSB competiton (something Buell didn't do with the 1125RR). Richard Cooper has covered many hundered thousands of miles testing the BMW over the past year to make sure that it was 100% ready to be launched to the public. Well, actually Aprilia did not build and sell 150 Cosworth motored bikes. Yes they did. I have seen plenty of them here in the UK both on the road and in racing. Most are now tucked up in collectors museums and garages but they were made and do exist. Even Foggy Petronas built the required initial number of road bikes to enable them to compete in WSB. The fact that they are all still sat in an Indonesian warehouse doesn't matter as far as the rules are concerned. This article is far more succint on the subject of AMA Superbike than can ever be (although because it is published by Superbikeplanet it will obviously be poo pooed on here) http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Dec/091202purseinfo.htm (Message edited by trojan on December 04, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Larry Pegram's 1098R machines were reportedly the same 1200cc bikes that Larry Pegram won multiple AMA Superbike races on the bike. The Buells at New Jersey were right there dicing with him. I didn't say they beat him, can't recall for sure if they did or not. But they were all there battling. Is that or is that not astounding for the second race out of the box coming from a tiny concern like Buell Racing? I've yet to see you give any credit or recognition for such an amazing accomplishment by such an underdog. All we see are criticisms. I know that tends to be the British way, but it comes across as very ungracious and even insulting. The twits at H-D have had their way and got Buell Motorcycle Company shut down yet some here, on a Buell Enthusiasts' Forum can't help but continue with the Buell bashing. Whether the 1125RR is competitive is certainly not a moot point, especially not if you are a Buell racing fan or a Buell enthusiast. My sense is that we've not seen the last of Buell motorcycles nor Erik's goal to put his racing machines up against the best in the world. Thank you for the edit Matt. I appreciate that. StuporBilePlanet is largely rejected here because they are not honest reporters of the whole story and have a clear anti-Buell, anti-DMG agenda. In short, they are totally biased and in a very mean-spirited fashion. I agree that it does seem odd that DMG/AMA Pro Racing have cut the ASBK awards so much. Until the national economic situation is turned around, blaming DMG for any decline in the series or for any scaling back in class structure is premature. (Message edited by blake on December 04, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
"their ZTL brake that I couldn't care less about" That comment does seem to reveal a lot concerning your attitude toward Buell and Buell racing. It is a real pity. | ||
| Blake |
But as someone mentioned in an earlier post, I guess since we're gone that proves we weren't worth a crap anyway. Whoever said that is a complete moron and dead wrong. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Anonymous says........ ""Well, actually Aprilia did not build and sell 150 Cosworth motored bikes. And if Buell had been allowed to build 150, we'd have been there. But the rules of now are 2,000, going to 3,000. Unless of course you are a company like BMW... But as someone mentioned in an earlier post, I guess since we're gone that proves we weren't worth a crap anyway. Kinda a pathetic level to drop to...but that figures."" Could someone verify that Buell approached FIM to race the Euro-spec 1125RR and got rejected ?? That would be big news How many street 1125R are build by the factory ?? I would guess more than 2.000. So why is there a problem to race a Euro 1125RR in WSBK ?? I am sure that when Ducati started to race the 1098R F08, they had not built 2000 1098Rs. Maybe they have still not built 2000 1198Rs. This "2.000 bikes" rule, gives companies like Bimota, Benelli, Buell a very difficult problem. I guess under the right circumstances (small manufacturers want to race in WSBK) it will be reconsidered. Racing desperately needs some new underdogs with great new ideas and charisma. | ||
| Trojan |
Larry Pegram's 1098R machines were reportedly the same 1200cc bikes that Haga campaigned in 2008 in WSBK. Must have been reported by Superbike Planet then I can guarantee you that they were not Haga's or anyone elses ex WSB machines (which would not have legal for US AMA use and not cost effective to convert) Larry Pegrams bikes were road legal 1098 bikes that were converted for race use in the US . Haga rode for Yamaha in 2008, but the Bayliss/Fabrizio 2008 factory Ducati racers are sitting in the factory in Italy under negotiation with a BSB team for 2010 (Shane Byrne's team tried to buy/lease them for 2009 but were unsuccessful). Like I said before, just coz it's red don't make it a factory Ducati. I made the comment about the ZTL brake simply because I knew you couldn't resist picking up on it  If you take a ride on a RC8 KTM or the latest Ducati/Aprilia/BMW you will find their brakes absolutely astounding. Erik and his team are skilled an innovative engineers, but that does not mean that there are no skilled engineers anywhere else or that Buell ideas are automatically better than other peoples. That would be a very arrogant assumption indeed. You pay your money and you take your choice, but I simply prefer 'traditional twin discs over the ZTL1 or 2, and having tested both to destruction I know which lats me longer and works better for what I want. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Pegrams bikes were road legal 1098 bikes that were converted for race use in the US . " So if an 1125RR can keep up with a race prepared road legal 1098R, is a great accomplishment, don't you think ? Both bikes cost about the same amount of money. So similar machines are compared. | ||
| Amafan |
The Ducati Larry Pegram was racing in AMA Superbike this year was pretty much a WSBK spec 1098R that was allowed by the DMG to race in the AMA . That was the reason Mat Mladin was bitching after Pegram beat him at Road America this year . Look at the competition section in the AMA Proracing website ,and you will notice that the Ducati 1098R was given alot of special allowances like Ducati race pistons, Ducati race swingarm,and Ducati race gas tank . | ||
| Diablo1 |
So why is there a problem to race a Euro 1125RR in WSBK ?? If you are talking about the 1200cc bike, then Buell will have to build 2,000 streetbikes before the end of 2010 to meet the homologation rules. The problem is that HD owns Buell, and they said they have shut it down, so unless they change their mind, there won't be 2,000 Buells of any displacement or model produced in 2010. EBR has approval from HD to build racebikes, not streetbikes, and certainly not 2,000 streetbikes. Here's a scenario where EBR can go race in WSBK. HD goes bankrupt. EBR makes an offer to the bankruptcy court to buy the assets and rights to Buell. EBR finds some investors to manufacture streetbikes to homologate for WSBK.} | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Here is a scenario... I manage to fit a 1200cc engine from a 1198R F09 to a 999R F07. Can I race this bike in WSBK in 2010 ?? | ||
| Blake |
It takes a lot of fortitude to avoid recognizing the benefit of trimming multiple pounds of unsprung mass from the front of a motorcycle while still retaining outstanding braking performance, race winning performance, national championship race winning performance. After witnessing Danny Eslick on his 1125R outbrake and outhandle the factory 600cc racing machines, one REALLY has to want to withhold recognition of what Erik Buell and associates accomplished with the ZTL. Then add to that
"Erik and his team are skilled an innovative engineers, but..." You really should have left it at that. The rest sounds incredibly petty and strangely appears to be an argument against a view that no one is offering here. "that does not mean that there are no skilled engineers anywhere else"? And it doesn't mean that there are no fluffy bunnies with pancakes on their heads! Whew! We saved the world from that bit of ignorance! "that does not mean that ... Buell ideas are automatically better"? "automatically"?   I'd add that the proof is in the pudding. ZTL allows a reduction in front end mass by multiple pounds and has been proved as exceptionally capable in the most extreme braking conditions. Running in the top five in ASBK in only the 1125RR's second race outing, winning the national championship and multiple races in DSB on the 1125R, and testimony from a number of test riders have proved ZTL. Yet the ZTL system was still in development and promised to offer even better performance as time progressed. Old tired debate. At one time you may have had a point. Not anymore. Now it's just obstinacy. When it comes to lightening the front end assembly of a motorcycle, the Buell engineers ARE the absolute best in the world today. Period. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
For sure, ZTL2 stands stronger now in the motorcycle world than 1 year ago..... I used to have my doubts, but not anymore. It took many race wins and a championship win to prove itself. Buell has 100% proved that they designed a different braking system that works under extreme conditions. The next question is....Would Eslick have done better with a 2-disk brake setup ?? |
