| Author | Message | ||
     Liquorwhere |
I wonder if Colin Edwards still has nightmares about that bike? Texas nut's roasting on an open fire....Jack Frost nipping at your nose.... Sorry...tis the season and all that.... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I read somewhere that Aprilia, with Edwards development skills, found that the "big" problem of the RS3 was the mounting point of the swingarm to the chassis. But at that point Aprilia run out of money, so they quit their motoGP program and they did not fix the problem. In the engine-injection-electronics department, the RS3 was ahead of its time. So if they can sort the chassis........And get Casey Stoner......... Actually I find many similarities between Ivan Beggio (former owner of Aprilia, before Piaggio bought Aprilia)and Erik Buell. Men with passion for bikes&racing that were axed by "MBA CEO managers" due to financial issues. The sad thing is that motorcycle enthusiasm and vision is axed as well. | ||
| Rocketman |
Edwards success on the SP1/2 was more down to the bike being the development of Honda Racing GB. Japan HRC had little to do with its build and development. Yamaha didn't hang on to Edwards. They shipped him off to a satellite team in favour of Lorenzo. Edwards is still with Tech because he proved consistent and finished the season the highest scoring non factory rider. As for his development skills, when he first came to Moto GP as a works rider he insisted for over a season despite being advised otherwise that he would only race with WSB front end as he could not get use to the Moto GP set-up. Fast qualifier, great racer, unfortunate not to have won a race or three (but that's all), he just hasn't been up there with the Rossi's of the world. Perhaps because he isn't good at developing his bike, or getting those that maybe should, listen to him. Then you'd have to ask. Why wouldn't they? Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Rocket...you'll have the Badweb Texas mafia on you in no time making comments like that about Saint Colin  As for Aprilia pulling out of Moto2...Make your mind up! They have teams contracted and waiting for chassis including Aspar and other top ex 250 teams, so to pull the plug at this stage seems rather naughty of them. They need to decide where they want to compete and stick with it rather than jumping from class to class. | ||
| Gaesati |
So, is Aprilia in or out of moto2? | ||
| Gaesati |
so, is aprilia in or out of moto2? | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Rocket...you'll have the Badweb Texas mafia on you in no time making comments like that about Saint Colin He is well like for a reason, he comes across as a likable guy. I think it is a disappointment for his career not to have won a race, and I have read elsewhere that he is an excellent test rider for development purposes. Hopefully the Tech 3 team, or Team Texas, can pull out some good results this season. It just seems like the non factory teams of old that were competitive with good sponsorship have fallen to the Factory teams. Who knows, maybe we can see a non factory winner next season, I would enjoy that. ESPECIALLY IF IT WERE ST COLIN!! Go Team Texas...that would be Red, White and F YOU!! | ||
| Jaimec |
As I pointed out earlier, since the switch to the 800cc machines, there hasn't been one single consistent podium threat from a non-factory team. Contrast that to the days when Sete Gibernau or Marco Melandri (satellite Honda riders) were a consistent podium threat. Rossi was right: the switch to the 800cc machinery was the single WORST decision ever made to MotoGP. | ||
| Trojan |
So, is Aprilia in or out of moto2? It seems that not even Aprilia know for certain yet. There will be a few team owners getting twitchy about it that's for sure, and Aspar has made mention of the possibility of taking over the Aprilia chassis project himself, but who knows.... Hopefully the Tech 3 team, or Team Texas, can pull out some good results this season. It just seems like the non factory teams of old that were competitive with good sponsorship have fallen to the Factory teams. Who knows, maybe we can see a non factory winner next season, I would enjoy that. ESPECIALLY IF IT WERE ST COLIN!! I would bet my hat that Spies will have a 'factory' Yamaha under him next year, even if it is in Tech 3 colours. I doubt if Colin will, but I'm pretty sure that Ben Spies will have pretty much equal kit to Lorenzo and Rossi, so there may be a Tech 3 winner but it won't be a 'customer' bike that does it. Likewise at Honda, with Simoncelli being promised factory spec Honda bikes equal to Pedrosa and Dovy, but Melandri having to make do with the customer spec version. It also wouldn't surprise me to see the Pramac Ducatis a lot closer to factory spec next year either. I think that the days of he truly independant team have now gone in MotoGP, and the satellite teams will now just be 'feeder' teams for the few remaining factory places and with a few works bikes thrown into the mix for 'special cases' such as Spies and Simoncelli who are not allowed to join a factory team in their 'rookie' season. Personally I am looking forward to Moto2 far more than another relatively boring season of MotoGP, and think that the racing will be MUCH closer and more exciting in Moto2 than we have seen for years in the top class event. (Message edited by trojan on November 25, 2009) | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Personally I am looking forward to Moto2 far more than another relatively boring season of MotoGP, and think that the racing will be MUCH closer and more exciting in Moto2 than we have seen for years in the top class event I don't know Matt...the 250cc series this year was hotly contested and I enjoyed the racing in that class immensely. I hope it is good racing, but I was a fan of the two smokes, but alas...they are no more. As far as better than the top class, maybe, depends on who comes up with the best chassis. All the HP is similar or the same, chassis and set up with the right rider will make the difference. Alot of really good riders exited after this season, hopefully the youth will rise up! | ||
| Trojan |
I agree, and also mourn the loss of the 250 'strokers..the last of the 'proper' race bikes. Hopefully the Moto2 class will combine the axe murderer mentallity of the Supersport class with the finesse of the 250 racers, giving us a real spectacle next year  There is also the real possibility of completely unknown riders coming to the fore in Moto2 that would probably never had stood a chance of landing a competitive MotoGP or 250 ride because of finances or 'passport' issues. Riders such as Gino Rea (current European 600 Superstock champion) and Josh Elliott from the UK are just a couple of guys I would like to see get a competitive ride in Moto2 next year. Josh Elliott, at just 15 years old, tested the new FTR Moto2 bike recently and was immediately on the pace. He is apparently a protege of Jeremy McWilliams and has been riding in the German Supersport series during 2009 because he was too young to get a UK licence! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Moto2 sounds promising. A class to develop chassis and suspension technology. Will there be traction control allowed in moto2 ?? | ||
| Jaimec |
I'm thinking the rules requiring the engines to last longer may even out the grid somewhat. One can only hope. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I think the kid's name is PJ Jacobson, an American, I believe is his name, that is the kid I want to see, don't know if he got a Moto2 ride, but he has been tearing up the smaller classes in Spain I think it is. I didn't see whether or not Bradley Smith took the 125 title....that kid has some promise as well. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is weird for me, after this "cost reduction in motoGP" propaganda, why GP has not followed F1 and ban traction control and increase the fuel limit. This would be solid step in reducing costs, while at the same time pleasing the majority of racing fans. Changing the capacity limits from 1000cc to 800cc and now (as expected) back to 1000cc makes the manufacturers investing a lot of money in R&D. If you want to reduce costs keep the same rules for a longer period of time, not keep changing the rules. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ It is weird for me, after this "cost reduction in motoGP" propaganda, why GP has not followed F1 and ban traction control and increase the fuel limit. This would be solid step in reducing costs, while at the same time pleasing the majority of racing fans. Changing the capacity limits from 1000cc to 800cc and now (as expected) back to 1000cc makes the manufacturers investing a lot of money in R&D. If you want to reduce costs keep the same rules for a longer period of time, not keep changing the rules. I thought the move to 800cc bikes was to slow them down? Not save money, I think the saving money part came when the economy slowed. if they would have kept the 990cc bikes and instituted rules on gearing then the bikes would have slowed down and possibly saved money in the end. I think the big bikes were more fun to watch to be honest. I loved watching Nicky and well almost everyone else for that matter slide those bikes around the track. I agree with tossing the traction control, but I think with the 800cc machines and the speeds they hit in the corners to keep the paces they are running, if you ditched the traction control you would be scraping up riders all over the track, it would look like a NASCAR mile race with only a few finishing. | ||
| Jaimec |
I just read an article (I can't remember where... I suffer from CRS) that the new crop of 800s are practically unrideable WITHOUT all of the electronic controls. So the reduction in ccs has had the reverse effect on costs. I still don't understand why they felt the need, but Matt (Trojan) seems to imply it was something Honda wanted, and what Honda wants, Honda gets. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
800cc bikes can slide around. Just watch Stoner on the Ducati at Philip Island and Valencia FPs-QP (not the race because the idiot crashed in the warm up lap). His traction control was off. They used to say that modern F1 cars cannot be driven without traction control, but it was not the case. GP riders will adapt to anything. I think DORNA realise that if they ban traction control the difference between the top riders and the rest will be much greater and racing will actually get more boring. I would not mind the 1000cc rule back, since it seems that will bring more manufacturers. But the top riders will still be the same, no matter the rules. Honda got the 800cc limit, since they "just" removed one cyclinder from their 1000cc 5cylinder engine, and they thought the smaller capacity will benefit Pedrosa. | ||
| Rocketman |
The sceptical view is a return to 1000cc is all about allowing production based engine derivatives from streetbikes. And I agree. What a fairly lacklustre season it was talking strictly of battling out o0n the track. Rocket | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Rocketman Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 05:07 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ The sceptical view is a return to 1000cc is all about allowing production based engine derivatives from streetbikes. And I agree. What a fairly lacklustre season it was talking strictly of battling out o0n the track. Rocket True, but the finish of the Catalunya was one of the best finishes to any race of any kind I've ever seen. | ||
| Trojan |
I still don't understand why they felt the need, but Matt (Trojan) seems to imply it was something Honda wanted, and what Honda wants, Honda gets. Honda are, without any doubt, the biggest movers and shakers in MotoGP, and have been for many years. If they were to pull the plug on their GP racing activities it is very unlikely that the series could survive in its current form. Unfortunately that means that they have considerable sway over the organisers and the other manufacturers when it comes to demanding changes. It was Honda that were always unhappy with 2 stroke racing in all classes (although they were rather good at it)and it was them that pushed hardest for the introduction of the 4 stroke MotoGP package. Once they had it, they realised that it wasn't going to be another stroll in the park for them after a coupe of years, so pushed for the introduction of the capacity reduction to 800cc on the weak premise that this would slow the bikes down, and using Dajira Katos frak fatal accident as ammunition for their flawed argument. Pretty much every 'expert' said that speeds would actually increase with lighter 800 bikes, and that crucially corner speeds (where crashes happen) would be substantially faster. Honda got their way though, and true to form they got caught with their corporate pants down and got beat by Yamaha AND Ducati! Now we have Honda leading the way to change regulations once again in order to try and claw back some of their advantage (it has very little to do with cost or safety). Honda were also the prime movers for the introduction of Moto2, and started the ball rolling by withdrawing their factory 250 racers some tme ago. Now we have the situation where Moto2 is a virtual Honda one make challenge series, so that should make them happy at last (except that they are now struggling to supply enough engines!). Honda put a lot of money and effort into MotoGP, but should not be allowed have the power that they currently hold over the series that's for sure. if there was an independant body that looked into safety and future technical regulations maybe we would have a stable rule structure formore than 2 years and costs would inevitably be less. We would also have less influence by 'interested parties' with their own agenda to fill, as none of the teams/factories are being altruistic or entirely truthful when it comes to wanting rule changes. I think the kid's name is PJ Jacobson, an American I agree, definitely a name to watch for th efuture. I don't think he will be in Moto2 just yet, but maybe he will get a 125 ride in GP's with Aspar in 2010 alongside Bradley Smith, who has already resigned to do 125's again next year. PJ rode for Aspar in the Spanish 125 series and was in the top ten most of the time in his first year. He also impressed in his few rides for Celtic racing in the US. | ||
| Jaimec |
You can accuse me of schadenfreude, but I just LOVE hearing tales of Honda getting caught out doing stupid things... | ||
| 46champ |
Matt Istill don't know why Aprilla doesn't run there 250's in moto2, at the tests the moto2 bikes aren't any faster. I don't think they would always be competitive but they should give Honda a run for a year or two. | ||
| Trojan |
I don't understand either why they have been given a 'transition' period of being allowed to run 250's yet nobody is taking advantage of it. Maybe Aprilia have decided that they don't want to spend any more time and money on the 250 just for one more season, or maybe teams don't want to pay the extremely high lease fees to Aprilia for a full seasons use of a factory spec 250. With so many redundant competitive 250 machines still out there I wonder what will become of them. Maybe Aprilia should sell them cheap to prospective Moto2/domestic 250GP/trackday runners just to get rid of them? Form a line behind me please, I'll take Simoncellis Gilera | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Moto2 bikes in recent tests use a "stock" CBR engine, and their chassis set-up is not ready yet, hence their slow laptimes. The moto2 Honda's engine will produce 160hp. There is no way a 250cc 2stroke can be competitice against 160hp 4cyl 4stroke engines. The power difference is huge ! Aprilia knows this, so there is no point racing their 250cc bikes. Dorna made sure that the chosen engine for the moto2, left the 2strokes not even the slightest chance. So is any team "dared" to race a 2stroke, they would be humiliated by a "superior Honda engine"....Bullshit ! Dorna talks about costs.....They are pathetic "bullshit" liers. If they were so much interested about costs, they would have chosen a "stock" IL4 600cc, tuned to 100-120hp, a cheap engine that would last the entire season. That way 250cc 2strokes would have a chance to be competitive, and eventualy, after 1-2 seasons, they would be "extinct" due to their high tuning and maintenance costs. But Dorna made sure they are dead from day 1. Also , why Dorna chose a IL4 600cc as the engine for the moto2 ?? Because that is what Honda wanted. Only Jap manufacturers build Il4 600cc engines. The rest of the world had no chance. Dorna could have chosen an 2cyl 800cc engine, like the IL2 engine built by Rotax. This capacity would relate more to the GP class, it is a more compact design for better chassis development, and since it is build by Rotax, a solely engine manufacturer, many teams (Aprilia, Bimota, Ducati....) would not "feel" they are using a "competitor's" engine and would have not made excuses to withdraw. But, as Trojan said, what Honda wants, Honda gets......Maybe last year's rumours that Honda will quit GP made 100% sure that their engines were chosen,. | ||
| Rocketman |
Well I'd take a guesstimate as something like this. A WSBK is give or take 2 seconds a lap slower than Moto GP and a 250 stroker around 6 seconds. Where do we see the Moto 2 lap times? I'd be surprised if the 600's were that much faster than 250's. Without looking into it I'd have assumed 250's were faster. So yes, I'm surprised to hear anyone say 600's are much faster than 250's. Wow. If it's true it looks fishy to me. Is this a stealth way of amalgamating GP and WSBK's as Flamini seems to be after. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Since the 2 strokes are gone, is there a point having different classes for WSBK and GP ? WSBK and GP bike share many parts. M1 and R1 have the same forks, and possibly the same swingarm. If the major diffrence between the 2 bikes are pneumatic valves, I see no real diffrence. Ducati use the same electronics package for their GP and WSBK bike. | ||
| Rocketman |
Well Vag, my trouble with it is I don't know enough to understand the benefit. As a spectator I see we'd lose. On the one hand we have the pinnacle of prototype development, and on the other we have the pinnacle of streetbike development in racing form. Both disciplines offer different even if somewhat similar racing and we get the benefit of two race series where at times shared tracks can offer a glimpse of how close a superbike, something not so unimagined from our road bikes then, could be to a GP bike. I know that's the stuff of schoolboy imagination, but racing does allow our imaginations to run wild with our own thoughts of 'I could have done that'. You know the one. We all wanted to be Formula 1 drivers when we were young and before we'd discovered motorbikes. But then I suppose it depends what era we were born in. Us Brit's from my generation we're enticed by Bret Sinclair winning the Indy 500 and James Bond going to the moon. Being Barry Sheene, and therefore dreaming of being a 500GP world champion came a little later, lol. Keep me posted with your thoughts  Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Back in 2005 (when MotoGP was still using the 990s) at Laguna Seca it was reported that Mat Mladin's record setting pole time for AMA Superbike would've put him 17th on the MotoGP grid. THAT was the difference back then, anyway... | ||
| 46champ |
>>Bret Sinclair winning the Indy 500. Who is Bret Sinclair? I no remember no racing driver at Indy 500 with that name. |
