| Author | Message | ||
     Roysbuell |
Another forum I am on is a local forum for motorcycle riders in general. The discussion has come up about Erik Buell Racing. What exactly are the differences between the 1125R and the Race-Only 1125RR? Does this bike break the AMA rules? Why are they called "Cheaters"? I want to reply but I don't understand the AMA rules or the differences between the publicly sold 1125R and the race 1125RR. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Details on the bike here: http://www.buell.com/en_us/racing/racing-news/deta il.asp?news_id=1459 Some people were pissed because the superbike rules say the bike must be based on a street legal production motorcycle. Buell went to the AMA and asked for approval to come up with a race kit to be used on the 1125R to make it competitive in superbike. The AMA for some unknown reason said "no, you can't do that, but we will allow you to build an entire race-ready bike and race that". So basically the AMA, not Buell, bent the rules. The bike is obviously based on an 1125R, so that part of the argument seems pretty weak to me. | ||
| Tbenson |
From what I have heard and read, the word "Cheater Bike" derived from mainly the displacement of the engine versus its competition, that seems to be the major argument amongst the general complaints I have seen, and the other specific rule changes made so Buell could compete, as mentioned. | ||
| Chessm |
i've found that in other forums people get the details wrong and they start complaining about how unfair it is that the 1125RR, a purpose built race bike, is racing against 600cc bikes. | ||
| Rockstarblast1 |
Tell the to take any one of there jap bikes raced in superbike class on the street n not get a ticket. That production stret bike thing means nothing. And there pissed cuz the RR is sold as a race bike only. You need a race licens to buy it..... And 40 grand lol. But its not far off from a reg 25r.  lol | ||
| Dennis355 |
I get sick of all the complaining. I think what upsets these people is that a relatively no-name might win on an 1125RR. Those factory teams for suzuki and yamaha and Ducati have parts that are untouchable to anyone but a select few. They can in a way limit the possible front runners.With a small budget and a licensed AMA rider almost anyone could field a 1125RR that could be capable of being competitive . | ||
| Ratsmc |
There are two different issues here. First is the Daytona Superbike conflict where DMG put 1125Rs up against 600cc inline fours. This essentially, allowed Buell a 100% displacement advantage. While it is typical for a race series (WSBK) to allow a displacement advantage (usually 200cc), it is hard to defend running a bike with double the displacement. The second issue, and the one I believe is the subject of this topic is the allowance for a race-only bike to be allowed by one and only one manufacterer despite rules clearly stating that is not allowed. From the AMA regulations: 2.1 Homologation a. Only homologated motorcycles may be used in American Superbike competition. b. American Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the US and available through US retail dealers. Information on motorcycle homologation is available from AMA Pro Racing. And then this press release was sent from the Buell Motorcycle Company : = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = BUELL INTRODUCES 1125RR RACING MOTORCYCLE Race-Use Only Model Aimed at AMA American Superbike Class East Troy, Wis. -- (Wednesday, July 15, 2009) Buell Motorcycle Company today introduced the 1125RR, a race-use only motorcycle intended for competition in the AMA Pro Racing American Superbike class. DMG made some lame excuses for why they were allowing one bike to break the rules but not the rest. Essentially, it really looks like Buell is receiving preferential treatment. Personally, I'd like to see Buell compete and win on a level playing field. (Message edited by Ratsmc on November 25, 2009) | ||
| Xnoahx |
Maybe DMG was just hoping that more bikes would make for better racing for the fans to enjoy. Crybabys dont see it that way. Also, If dispacement was everything, why were XBs racing and winning? They have more ccs than the 1125 so that means they win right? | ||
| Hughlysses |
DMG made some lame excuses for why they were allowing one bike to break the rules but not the rest. It's all in how you look at it. You could just as correctly say DMG didn't allow, they required Buell to "break the rules". Note that they have said they may allow other manufacturers to field ready-built race bikes on a case-by-case basis. | ||
| Zacks |
Everyone gets spun up around the 'displacement advantage' running 1125's against the 600's. In fact, it's a balancing act in where the DMG and the AMA before that try to 'level' the playing field. A V-twin cannot spin as fast nor achieve the same number of power pulses that an in-line can in a given time frame. Same reason there's a 'weight advantage' in some of the rule books. Must be a reason they keep hanging more weight on the Ducati's in WSB. I remember reading a Kevin Cameron column awhile back that discussed volumetric efficiency, average combustion pressures and a couple of other esoteric factors that show the bigger twins and the in-lines are actually fairly even regarding engine performance. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Still don't get it...the poor dead horse  A not much more than thumbnail aquaintance with thermodynamics and basic physics will show that the "obvious" "displacement advantage" is blurred...the lap times and top speeds of the bikes further tell the story....those "poor little" 600's are far more potent than you realize... | ||
| Ratsmc |
It's all in how you look at it. You could just as correctly say DMG didn't allow, they required Buell to "break the rules". Note that they have said they may allow other manufacturers to field ready-built race bikes on a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure I buy that. If you are going to enforce rules on a case by case basis, why have them at all? Why not just say "the rules are up to us and we'll tell you whether or not your bike can race or not"? Regardless of the intricacies of determining parity rules, the real concern is the appearance of preferential treatment. Establishing rules and holding competitors strictly to those rules and then suddenly making an exception for a single competitor reeks of impropriety and opens the championship to questions regarding whether the winner won fairly or not. Like I said, I want to see Buell out there winning on a level playing field so that I can wear that championship proudly and without qualification. (Message edited by Ratsmc on November 25, 2009) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jerry- Oh, I agree, it's hosed up, but it's not like Buell went and asked "please let us build a special race bike and use that to compete". DMG is the one that created the unnecessary animosity against Buell. | ||
| Zacks |
...If you are going to enforce rules on a case by case basis, why have them at all?... Ahhh. that was the fun of the old Formula USA series. Nitrous 250cc GP bikes, Alcohol burning 1100's  | ||
| Liquorwhere |
It's all in how you look at it. You could just as correctly say DMG didn't allow, they required Buell to "break the rules". Note that they have said they may allow other manufacturers to field ready-built race bikes on a case-by-case basis If I remember the interview with Roger Edmundson correctly he stated Erik Buell came to him and wanted to homologate some race parts, but as the homologation period had ended, the only way to get the parts on a bike at the track was to apply for a new bike to be enter into competition. Which DMG allowed when they put the parts on an 1125R, called it an 1125RR but made it not street legal, but instead came with an OFF ROAD USE only title. I think some, myself being one of them, interpretted the rules as the bike that was raced, regardless of whether or not it was street legal in race trim, must be a bike that was sold as a street legal production bike BEFORE any homologated parts were added, thus the 1125RR would not be in line with the rules. This is the crux of the situation whether it was raced against liter bikes or 600's it didn't matter if the bike itself was not in line with the rule book. Obviously none of the bikes on an AMA paddock are street legal in race trim, but they are SUPPOSED to be sold as a street legal production bike before homologated parts are added. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Jerry- Oh, I agree, it's hosed up, but it's not like Buell went and asked "please let us build a special race bike and use that to compete". DMG is the one that created the unnecessary animosity against Buell. Oh, to be clear, this is entirely on DMG. Buell wasn't looking for an exception to the rules. DMG buggered the handling of this one all on their own. | ||
| Captainkgb |
I just think it sucks that Buell's entire future existence is now dependent on racing. I would like nothing better than to see Erik's little mule win WSB. But I feed my addiction on the street not the track, and it may be a long while before I can get another fix. | ||
| Dentguy |
I think this is the interview with Roger Edmondson that Liquorwhere was referring to. Third question down.... http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=37510 | ||
| Iamarchangel |
I was trying to find a better reference than wikipedia but for WSB, Buell would have to add 6kg and use some kind of restrictor to compensate. Ducati already does this. So, the organizers make it fairer and the armchair guys don't like it. | ||
| Boltrider |
Just to be clear, we have Daytona Sportbike and Daytona Superbike - two different classes under the AMA. Race versions of the 1125R streetbike competed in both classes this year, but were more prevalent and successful in Daytona Sportbike (the same class that has all the Japanese 600's). Daytona Superbike is where the 1000cc I4 bikes race, and that is the class the 1125RR was made for. It has mods done to it that are not legal in Daytona Sportbike. As for World Superbike....that's what the new Barracuda was made for, but then HD had to come along and shitcan the plans for it. (Message edited by boltrider on November 26, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
those "poor little" 600's are far more potent than you realize... YOu have that right. The big bad literbikes have lap times 1-2% faster at most tracks with 67% more displacement (versus a 600.) HP is not everything. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Basing a racing class on displacement limits alone is as stupid as basing one solely on red line limits. Horsepower is: (Torque * RPM) / 5252 Large displacement V-twins trade off a lower red line to get more torque. Smaller displacement inline fours trade off a lower torque in order to get a higher red line. There's nothing more noble, honest, or admirable in either approach to making horsepower. What the 600cc fanboys don't want to mention about the Buell is how DMG put weight penalties on it, forcing it to lug around more weight, compromising both acceleration and handling. Racing is very much a business to the Japanese manufacturers. They build bikes to race and street worthiness takes a pillion seat to winning races. Buell, on the other hand, built sport bikes for street riders -- and their bikes simply work a lot better on the street and the Buell rider had a definite advantage due to the wide torque spread. If the public is going to choose bikes based on which one wins on the track, then I'm all in favor of rules which result in the better street bike winning. Let's be honest: The Japanese manufacturers, and most of their adolescent customers, would complain about any winning bike which did not follow their cookie-cutter 600cc I4 formula. They would complain if someone started winning with a 400cc turbo. They would complain if a 500cc rotary engined bike won a race. They would complain if a street-legal 2-stroke 500cc bike was a winner. How many of the 600cc Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Yamaha fanboys would say "we've got a displacement advantage, so if they make as much power as we do with less displacement, our bikes are just pitiful and poorly engineered"? As I posted in one of the countless whine festivals on this topic, I rode my Buell to work. It had great power, superb handling, was a pleasure to ride, and no one at my office protested my use of it. It wasn't torn down for a tech inspection when I arrived. I was not required to add weight to it because of its displacement. If someone wants to ride a bike on the street which is compromised by rules in some racing class that they will never compete in, that's their (stupid) choice. | ||
| Dentguy |
Oh boy, here we go again. What the 600cc fanboys don't want to mention about the Buell is how DMG put weight penalties on it, forcing it to lug around more weight, compromising both acceleration and handling. Lets be clear here. Did DMG make Buell add weight to the bike or did they put a higher minimum number on it to try and shut people up? I don't think the Buell had to change anything due to a new minimum weight. Which isn't much more. You make it sound like they had to add weight and it made it difficult to ride. On second thought, no need to answer. This stuff has already been covered on here so much. Enjoy the holiday. (Message edited by dentguy on November 26, 2009) | ||
| Chadhargis |
Anyone who actually WATCHED the races, whether they know anything about motorcycles or not, could tell things were pretty damn even. There were no Buell podium sweeps like we used to see Suzuki do in AMA Superbike. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Ballast comment only applied to WSB. Seen nothing that says it was part of either Daytona. | ||
| Skully |
Quoted from Roadracing World, November 2009, “Some said including the Buell 1125R V-Twin in the AMA Pro Racing Daytona SportBike Class along with 600cc Inline Fours was unfair and that the bike was too fast. When the season ended, Buell’s Danny Eslick had finished every race, winning six races and the title. The top riders on the four cylinder 600s won 14 races and all had multiple DNFs… | ||
| Packdog |
This is a bit off topic, but reading the Roadracing World article gave me an idea. Wouldn't it be nice to walk into any dealer and look at their street legal sportbike. Plunk down an AMA license and order the racing version - same price, but the bike comes with race fairing, no headlight, blinkers or any of the stuff that gets taken off for racing. | ||
| Smoke |
Keith, you nailed it! consistency was the key just as it was when Nicky Hayden won the MotoGp championship. i think that this was the first time that Danny Eslick rode with a team as well prepared (and financed)as RMR and i expect that they will have another sensational season next year. tim | ||
| Boltrider |
The Buells did incur a weight penalty in Sportbike during the middle of the season. I'm going off memory but I think it was 2 separate 10-lb penalties for a total of 20 lbs. Maybe I shouldn't say penalty but I know they made them add weight to the bike. The power/weight ratio at the end of the season was very even. Eslick outrode Hacking and Cardenas during the last month but some folks don't want to hear that. Josh Herrin closed strong but Eslick had enough of a lead to hold him off. (Message edited by boltrider on November 26, 2009) | ||
| Fmaxwell |
@Dentguy "Oh boy, here we go again." Yes, it looks like it. You need to do a bit of research. Not much. Just a very tiny amount uncovers this AMA Competitor Bulletin: Competitor Bulletin #2009-08 To: All AMA Pro Road Racing Competitors Date: April 13, 2009 Effective Date: April 13, 2009 Subject: Special Allowances Buell 1125 Effective immediately: Competition Bulletin #2009-04 has been updated. Special allowances for the Buell 1125 have been changed. The minimum allowed weight has been changed to 380 lbs from 365 lbs. There. A 15 pound addition part way through the season. And on that very same day, the minimum weight for the 600cc bikes was dropped from 365 to 360lbs, making for a total of 20 pounds of difference between the Buell and the Japanese bikes. Whether they had to add the full 15 pounds of ballast, I can't say, but 20 pounds of difference between two race bikes in that class is huge. (Message edited by fmaxwell on November 26, 2009) |
