| Author | Message | ||
     Motorico |
Is this the engine from the 1125 series? The 1125 series? I don't spend lots of time on the Rotax site and I wonder if this is a relatively recent addition to the public offering. I admit it would suck if another maker took the 1125 motor and made what could have been a great line of bikes under Buell. Well, it would suck for Harley and possibly Erik, but the riding public, not quite as much. http://www.rotax.com/en/Engine/2004/Motorcycle/Eng ine.Models.htm | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
Yes, that does appear to be it. No, just cause it's on their site does not mean it is for sale to anyone that wants one. I believe it's licensed to Harley, just like the one below it is licensed to Aprilia. R | ||
| Bigblock352 |
Looks like the one and the same. (Message edited by bigblock352 on November 23, 2009) | ||
| Court |
No worries. Buell Motorcycle Company owns the motor, the rights and all the tooling. There is an embargo period during which Rotax may not transfer any of the Buell technology to other manufacturers . . including Rotax. | ||
| Jdugger |
I really wish the motor *would* show up in other bikes. That would mean continued development and interest in it. | ||
| Motorico |
I thought it may be the same engine. Part of me WANTS someone to take that engine and do something with it since HD seems unwilling. Ideally, it would be Erik Buell. It really doesn't make since for HD to just lock down those rights since they should have some value. It just really adds to my sense of confusion regarding the 10/15 announcement. I wouldn't mind a trellis frame around that motor though. It looks like a great motor to build custom bikes around. (Message edited by MotoRico on November 23, 2009) | ||
| Fmaxwell |
I, too, would like to see Eric Buell get the rights to the 1125 Helicon. I wish that HD would just hand over Buell-specific rights to Eric, and let him make a go of it. They have proven that there is not the crossover that they had hoped for, so it's not like a line of Buell sport bikes would be taking sales away from Harley. I could even see them putting some restrictions like no police bikes, no cruisers (would need definitions like fork rake, wheelbase, displacement, redline, etc.), and maybe even no air-cooled V-twins of less than 60 degree angle between cylinders. But why needlessly put Americans out of work during a recession? | ||
| Ogobracing |
I think BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products) would be a great partner in such an endeavor. | ||
| Ratgin |
Buy Canadian! | ||
| Chadhargis |
Isn't that what Erik Buell Racing is going to do? Continue development of the engine as a race motor? But like the others have said, it would be nice to see that motor in other bikes. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Selling race parts for an out-of-production street motorcycle line that had just over a 2 year run is not a long-term business strategy that will put 180 Buell employees back to work. Erik knows this. He's almost as good a businessman as he is an engineer (that's saying something), so I am sure that he's got some great insights into how to diversify the Erik Buell Racing offerings. I just wish that Harley would do the right thing for Erik, the employees of Buell Motorcycle Company, and the customers. HD told the investors that there is nothing of value to sell from Buell, so take $1 from Erik Buell and sell him the patents and designs that came out of Buell, the Helicon engine rights (since it will never appear in a Harley), and the manufacturing rights for 1125R/CR street bikes. Harley could reap all kinds of benefits. They could provide financing to well-qualified Buell customers. They could get access to the mailing list for Buell purchasers. They could work out arrangements where EBR supplied parts for the 1125R/CR lines of bikes. They could sell off parts to EBR for which they have an excess due to the sudden shut-down of the Buell line. They could buy service parts back from EBR at pre-arranged cost-plus terms. They could include terms in the contract to get engineering services from EBR (such as those provided for the XR1200R). The people who had the personal vendettas against Erik Buell got their pound of flesh. They saw his dispirited, anguished announcement of the closing of the company that he worked so hard to found. You'd think that would be enough without having their hatred spill over into harming the customers and employees of Buell Motorcycle Company. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
The people who had the personal vendettas against Erik Buell got their pound of flesh. They saw his dispirited, anguished announcement of the closing of the company that he worked so hard to found. You'd think that would be enough Ha, loved to have seen their faces watching EB trying to keep a straight face, as in not grinning too big, on the last video then. | ||
| Duchunter |
If HD is telling their stockholders that Buell intellectual property isn't worth anything, they're lying through their teeth. As an example: the V-Rod motor was originally intended to be a Buell motor in 1999. Someone at HD modded the design specs, making the final production version of the motor too wide to fit on the Buell platform. This effectively make the motor unusable by Buell and HD developed the V-Rod around it. The truth is that HD appropriated Buell's motor. It took Buell until 2008 to recover from that screwjob by developing a new powerplant. By then it was too late. Statements like "Buell was worthless" and "there is no crossover" just aren't true. | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
"He's almost as good a businessman as he is an engineer (that's saying something)." i really hope, that he is a better engineer than a businessman...anotherwise, i would feel really sorry for him. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I really like the Rotax 804 engine. It looks very simple and compact. If Buell cannot get the rights of the 1125 Helicon, Rotax can build a new 1200 engine for him.  | ||
| Yugi |
> Buy Canadian! This is not Canadian, but Austrian. Sorry. | ||
| Froggy |
BRP-Rotax is a Canadian firm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Recreation al_Products All depends on how you look at it. Not that it really matters anymore, with a world economy and all.  | ||
| Diablo1 |
If Buell cannot get the rights of the 1125 Helicon, Rotax can build a new 1200 engine for him If HD retains the rights to the 1125 motor, then EBR will have to come to an agreement with them to do "whatever" with that motor. If Rotax gains control of the rights to that motor because of some breach of contract by HD, then EBR can purchase the motors directly from Rotax. EBR can purchase the V-990 motor from Rotax, because the exclusive rights do not belong to Aprilia. The V-990 is also used in the Can-Am Spyder. Aprilia lost the exclusive rights to the motor when they had financial problems (2004) and didn't honor the terms of their contract with Rotax. If EBR wanted Rotax to build him a totally new 1200cc motor, that would cost him big bucks - much more expensive than an existing design.} | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Wouldn't a bigger bore 1125(= 1200cc) be a different engine ?? | ||
| Gemini |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotax austrian | ||
| Diablo1 |
Wouldn't a bigger bore 1125(= 1200cc) be a different engine ?? No, it would be the same engine with a couple of different parts. I'm sure the contracts spell all this out. If you were allowed to bore an engine and sell it as something different, Rotax could have done that to Buell too. They could have produced an 1145cc version of the same motor and sold it to any other motorcycle company.} | ||
| Duchunter |
why speculate? the Rotax contract stipulated a minimum number of delivered engines and and Buell took delivery as required. there are no risks of default on a production contract with Rotax. not counting the 80 bikes produced for 2010, there are enough crate motors in inventory to build another full year's production run of 1125. HD will never build them. what to do with the motors then? HD doesn't like to warehouse parts -- especially big parts and obsolete parts. so P&A stocks up 10 years worth of replacement parts for service and contracts the rest to be shredded. if they run short, they just re-buy a small lot from the OEM at higher prices and pass the price increase along to the customer. warehousing is expensive, so "excess" inventory gets shredded off of the books to generate a one time tax loss. you wouldn't believe how many magnesium wheels were shredded at Buell to generate a tax loss for HD. everyone who suggested discounting them was laughed at -- HD doesn't cheapen the brand image by blowing out discount parts. they'd rather shred them. the motors are a pretty expensive item to shred, and since EB was chomping at the bit to buy them to keep his racing dream alive, the choice between giving the motor inventory to the bonded shredder and licensing them to EBR was easy. the legal speculation is moot, as HD has satisfied its contract with Rotax, and EBR has already licensed the rights to the 1125 engine from HD. he's also got the 2011 crate motor inventory. that's how many motors there are. period. the big question is whether EBR can stimulate enough interest with what's left to order another block of production from Rotax, or better yet, to bring Buell back from the dead someday. interesting to note: if Buell ever comes back, the line would be based solely on the 1125. the XB line has been abandoned forever. | ||
| Anonymous |
Why do people post like they have the inside track and are in the know, when they are not? This is something I just plain do not understand. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Duchunter: ever hear of license agreements? Intellectual property? Obviously don't read much news. You missed the bit with the music. Imagine a disc print company is asked to press 20000 Stone's cds. They do and deliver the product. A year later they print a couple of thousand for themselves to sell. Yep, that would go over large. Same thing. | ||
| Court |
Ya gotta love the Internet. I'm in Kansas and there's more BS in this thread than the entire state | ||
| No_rice |
Why do people post like they have the inside track and are in the know, when they are not? This is something I just plain do not understand. i dont know crap about it! but as court said, even i can figure pretty easily there is an abundance of inaccurate things posted | ||
| Court |
I got lectured by an omniscient fellow who couldn't spell Erik's name and had about 85% of his facts wrong. It's a funny chapter in the world of Buell. I'm learning to ignore many threads. It is . . I remind myself . . The Intenet. Many of the things some claim to "know" and patently false. | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
I used to be disgusted... Now I'm just amused! R | ||
| T_man |
I have an honest question. Who exactly often makes posts as 'Annonymous'? On what grounds can we take his/her posts as credible? I read Duchunter's post. I ready Annonymous' post. I looked at Duchunter's profile and from the business card I making the assumption he was an engineer at the Buell plant. Is not this grounds for credibility on this topic? Let me again say, this is an honest question with no sarcasm. I am trying to apply some sort of BS filter to help me know what to take at face value on posts of this nature... thats all. Thanks! | ||
| No_rice |
to post annony here, there has to be a real reason for it. and the custodians do check the validity of the person posting as such. usually it was because it was a person in the know that technically shouldnt have even been talking to us in the first place. then there are those that just have an actual profile and post under that without most people knowing who they are.... |
