| Author |
Message |
    
Joebuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 08:41 am: | 
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ahhhh. That may be it. Can all the fuel boilers include their gas type /ethanol content when reporting? |
Homer007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 09:45 am: |
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I still say we can thank the GOV for this ... that 10% ETHANOL crap lowers the boiling point of the gasoline. Just wait until they go with the 15% mix!!
why blame the gov or the gas? it's obviously a design flaw. no other vehicle (car or motorcycle) has this issue.
(Message edited by Homer007 on November 17, 2009) |
Joebuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 09:59 am: |
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no other vehicles carry the fuel in the frame either. Since selling the bike is not an option, nor is replacing the airbox with a traditional fuel tank, calling out "design flaw" doesn't help.
tracking fuel types to see if non-ethanol fuels do not induce teh boiling does bring some relief. |
Sknight
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 10:15 am: |
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Mine does it on 10%. Only option I have here in Ga so I'm stuck with it. |
Dmhines
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 10:17 am: |
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There are very few if ANY place left in the USA where you can buy 100% gasoline. I also live in Georgia ... and 10% Ethanal is all we got.
(Message edited by dmhines on November 17, 2009) |
Homer007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 11:35 am: |
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Come on now, would 10% ethanol make a difference in whether the fuel boils in the tank or not?
Let’s say the tank of the 1125 is 5 gallons. If you fill the tank with 10% ethanol gasoline, the tank will contain .5 gallons of ethanol and 4.5 gallons of gasoline. The boiling point of ethanol is around 173 degrees. Gasoline’s boiling point varies from 100 degrees to 400 degrees due to the different compounds in the gasoline vaporizing at different temperatures. At what temperature does the frame make the gasoline gurgle in the tank? Let’s call this the “boiling point”. I’m going to be waaay generous and say 250 degrees. I know it doesn’t get close to this hot just by touch but let’s make it very extreme for our example. With a 10% mixture of ethanol, the “boiling point” goes down from 250 degrees to 242 degrees. A whole whooping 8 degree difference at an extreme frame temperature of 250 degrees. If the frame causes the gas to “boil” at 180 degrees, the ethanol lowers that point less than 1 degree. What’s the whole point? The point is that the fuel will boil inside your tank with or without 10% ethanol. I do look for non-ethanol for the higher energy content but anyone putting any effort is find non-ethanol to fix the boiling issue is wasting their time... |
Dmhines
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 12:51 pm: |
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Guess it depends on how Ethanol and Gasoline mix. Perhaps the gurgling and boiling is just the Ethanol component of the gas/ethonal mixture. Pretty sure at the molecular level gas+Ethanol does not create a new chemical composition. So if the 10% Ethanol portion of the mixture is turning to a gas at 173 degrees F than that makes sense of the low boiling point. |
Homer007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 01:51 pm: |
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other components of the gas will start vaporizing before the ethanol will. sigh.. is it so difficult to understand that the gas in frame design is the cause of the fuel boiling and not the fuel itself? |
Joebuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 02:07 pm: |
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no, I get it. but short of a super duper heat shield it is not fixable on exisiting bikes. I'm not blaming etanol, just wondering if it is a factor. |
Chevycummins
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 03:58 pm: |
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Seems like the California emissions bikes are less likely to boil the gas. I think the way the charcoal canister is connected helps produce pressure in the tank that will raise the boiling point of the gas. Atmospheric pressure has a large role in the boiling point of gas.
There are other bikes out there that will boil gas in the tank. http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1 5237 |
Afhans
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 04:08 pm: |
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You guys living in Ga... you got any small airports near you? If so you could try using AvGas instead of that 90% MoGas crap. I used it in my '97 Bandit 600s when living in Co with no problems. So if you want to try it take a two 5 gal cans to the airfield and give it a shot. Oh this is important. AvGas NOT Jet Fuel (Jet A-1 or B). If asked... "No this is not going in a bike." |
Afhans
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 04:17 pm: |
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Important note. My old bike had no Oxygen sensor I had to worry about. I think the 1125r, though it has to catalytic converter does have a O sensor that the lead in the AvGas might ruin. Better ask if they started selling unleaded yet. Back in '07 I heard it was just around the corner. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 04:36 pm: |
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2008 1125R and 2009 1125CR, upstate NY, running nothing but E10 93 octane, never had a gas boiling issue. Only time I ever had gas spill out the vent tube, (and Ratbuell witnessed it), was from parking the bike for an hour right after filling it up. |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 04:50 pm: |
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Fairly warm here in FL today. Filled up, did 20 miles or so stop and go city riding. Gas puddle about 4" in diameter in my driveway after arriving home. Seriously considering the CA canister. Does it feed back into the gas tank/frame? |
Sknight
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:38 pm: |
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The canister hooks to a metered vacuum port on the throttle body. A little vacuum goes through to purge the vapors out burning it in the engine. Should work great. |
Avc8130
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:38 pm: |
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CA canister does NOT feed back into the frame. It just "filters" the vented gas. I believe it uses engine vacuum from the front TB to pull the vapors.
ac
(Message edited by avc8130 on November 17, 2009) |
Whynot
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:50 pm: |
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Good info here on the CA canister:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/444928.html#POST1412122 |
Red93stang
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 06:06 pm: |
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I install the CA canister and problem solved. You do have to remove the t-bodies to install the tube to the front t-body. Not hard just time consuming. |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 06:13 pm: |
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why blame the gov or the gas? it's obviously a design flaw. no other vehicle (car or motorcycle) has this issue.
This is just incorrect. Do your homework, I did. |
Sknight
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 12:13 am: |
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Ugh I give up. Search is locking up on me.
Anyone have a link to the canister thread that had the part numbers, or the numbers themselves? The guys at my local HD are great folks, but it would save me a bunch of trouble if I had the numbers.
TIA |
Whynot
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:07 am: |
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Here ya go:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/510520.html
per Froggy:
27042-84A CARBON CANNISTER Retail Price:$37.50
P0066.1AM HOSE ASSY, THROTTLE BODY TO CARBON CANN. Retail Price:$9.75
P0067.1AM HOSE ASSY, FUEL VENT, CALIF, Retail Price:$13.25
(Suggest getting a parts book -- well worth the investment IMHO.)
-Kurt |
Geforce
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 11:17 am: |
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Maybe my bike is a weirdo... But my '08 has never had any boiling issues. I open the cap to look every time I filled it up this summer. My Akuma helmet has a nice bright LED white light built in that I can turn on to look inside the tank. don't get me wrong, it's hot in there. But the fuel is not "boiling".
I would like to see a video or something of this. I do however, get a little drippage from vapors condensing in the vent line. No biggie. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:43 pm: |
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when the bike is ridden hard or slow, and gets hot, it can weep some droplets, I have had the boil issue low fuel and hot motor,
NBD |
Sknight
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 07:56 pm: |
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Thanks Whynot! The service manual and the parts book are going to be purchased very soon, especially considering the support we're seeing from HD. |
1324
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:09 pm: |
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I only use E10 here in PA because it is all I can find. My fuel has 'boiled' since the first ride on my 09 about one month ago. Over 800 miles later, it still does it. I was amazed the first time I witnessed the fumes spewing out of the fill port and astonished when I heard the bubbling coming from within. In fact, you can feel the bubbling if you place your hand on the frame while it's cooling down. For the longest time I was convinced that people were crazy when it came to this. Clearly, I'm a believer now.
Is this a design flaw? Not sure. In my opinion, I would never think this issue should make it into production. BUT, if it passes EPA/CARB certification and it doesn't affect safety - and we have no evidence that it does - then it isn't a flaw. Highly undesirable, sure. Flaw, not really.
I'm wondering how much of a difference the dark black frame makes over the 08 diamond blue frame. Obviously black will absorb/radiate more heat than any other color, but the blue is pretty dark. Who knows. Might have had an impact. It would be interesting to find out...
Also, how much of the inside of the frame is covered up with the heat barrier on the 09+ bikes? I saw some on the inside when I de-noided, but I didn't get a really good look. I'm left wondering if the lack of coverage allows heat in while the heat barrier that is there acts as an insulator keeping the heat IN the frame rather than radiating out.
How are the radiators mounted to this bike? Attached to frame? Rubber mounts? Probably moot, but any path for conduction from the cooling system to the frame? Trying to account for everything here...
I've ordered the carbon canister, mainly to eliminate as many fumes from my garage (in my basement UNDER my bedroom) as possible. Any improvement would be beneficial. At this point I'm still about 90% sure I'll be doing some heat management work on this bike over winter. I think Buell left us some last minute homework. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:24 pm: |
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I still think people are crazy, I got two 1125's and neither boil.
Can't comment on the frame colors, as neither of mine boil.
I don't think the insulation is trapping heat in, but thats my uneducated guess.
The pods are mounted to brackets which attach to the motor, not the frame. |
Milleniumx1
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:32 pm: |
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My 09R has boiled twice. The first time I was wondering what that new noise at shut-off was all about. So that's what fuel bubbling in a frame/tank sounds like ...
Mike |
Buzzie
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 12:27 am: |
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I think...as a tech..and an owner it varies depending on your riding style and the various situations.....
While riding I have not had any problems...
I, however, do not ride it like I stole it.
I maintain the speed limit.
I live in the midwest with varying temps.
I do not have a problem unless I let my baby sit for long periods of time while running.
SO...... |
Dmhines
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 08:02 am: |
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My 2009 spewed fuel the first ride home ... hasn't done it since ... |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 10:30 am: |
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When my '09 was new, I would get little gas puddles out the vent tube. When I say little, I'm talking less than 10 drips.
I've never heard the fuel boil.
I've never had gas spray out of the gas cap.
I've ridden everything from slow relaxing rides in freezing temperatures to flogging the living daylights out of it on the track on a hot day - no issues whatsoever. |
Sknight
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 09:08 pm: |
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Mine fumes pretty bad and makes a silver dollar size spot most every time I ride, whipping it or not. Only after a short ride will it not make a spot.
I haven't checked for it boiling, but gas has such a low evaporation point that it really doesn't surprise me any.
Because of the "Tanks" proximity to the engine and exhaust the fuel is going to get much hotter than other bikes. The vapors are going to happen. The drips are from fuel condensing near the much cooler end of the tube.
And other fuel in frame Buells don't do this in part because of how the exhaust is run. Our rear pipe runs right along the frame. IIRC the 1200 engines have much more clearance between the exhaust and frame.
I wouldn't call it a flaw, but they really could have done better IMHO. |
Joshinga
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 05:57 pm: |
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I rerouted my vent tube into the air box with about 3-4 in of tubeing and the problems have all but stopd. go figure. It still vents fumes but they dont have time to return to liquid form before they get sucked into the motor. the only thing it does if I get it REALLY hot and just shut down breifly it will load up the air box with fumes all I do is open the throttle and hit the magik button and VVVVRRROOOOOMMMM . My 2 cents |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 09:16 pm: |
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I re-routed mine back to 08 original, so I'm with Josh on "the shorter the better" bunch.
She was peeing all over the place a few weeks ago when I overfilled her. my bust.
No other problems fuel-wise here.
Z |
