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Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 04:39 pm: | 
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I have an 07 Uly with 23K miles on it. This year has been a maintenance nightmare, I've replaced the VR, the fan, the exhaust actuator, rocker cover gaskets, and I had a long story in "Court" regarding a detached header...Anyway, I have another problem that perhaps I can get some guidance on.
It started about a month ago. I noticed that every once in awhile, it would 'skip'. That is to say, I'd be going along at 70mph, had been running for ran hour or so, so all warmed up, and then the bike would just miss. The engine light went on. Then it went off. Then it was fine. This was very sporadic. This kept up for awhile, but it's the end of the season and I wasn't doing much riding, so I figured I'd have time to look into it. On Saturday, I was going to take it out, and it misfired like hell right off the bat. The engine light kept coming on, I couldn't keep it running. (I was just down the hill from my house and was thinking shit, I'll have to push this beast back up the hill but a series of restarts and revs got me back into the garage.) It just ran like crap and never got to normal. Last night, I tried to figure out what was going on by reading the codes...Information on the web indicates that if I jumped pins 1 and 2, I'd get a series of flashes and that would translate into codes. I did this, but no flashes. When I put the cover back on the diagnostic plug and tried to start it, no joy. It would crank but not fire. Hmmm...Then I pulled the center plug off the ECM because it looked a bit loose, sprayed some WD40 on it, and then it started ,but barely, and misfired like hell, and then loudly backfired a couple of times.
I have no idea what's going on here and am open to suggestions and hints.
Thanks |
7873jake
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 08:34 pm: |
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I'm responding to bump this back to the top and also to see if any insight has been gleaned over the last day. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 09:56 pm: |
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quote:Then I pulled the center plug off the ECM because it looked a bit loose, sprayed some WD40 on it, and then it started ,but barely, and misfired like hell, and then loudly backfired a couple of times.
What do you mean by the center plug? AFAIK, there are only two large multi-pin connectors on the ECM, no? If either of them are loose, that would explain a myriad of problems. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 12:27 am: |
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There's a small one in the middle between the two multi pins. I ordered an ECM Cable and the software yesterday on Ebay, so I'll be hooking that all up as soon as it arrives to gain insight. In the meantime, guess I'll ride my Scrambler...that hasn't given me a lick of trouble |
Fahren
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 09:05 am: |
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Can you fill in some details of maintenance? At 23,000 miles, you should be on your 3rd set of plugs. Have you checked the plugs to see what condition they are in?
I saw in another thread that you have already dealt with the 77 connector, so that's not it.
Fill us in on whatever you can think of! |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 10:28 am: |
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Bike's been fully maintained, at 20K did the oil change, replaced the plugs, adjusted primary chain, etc. At 22K the header came detached, it was in the shop for two months (all documented in "Court" under "holy headers") at that point a head was replaced, new plugs again, new plug wires as well. I replaced the exhaust actuator just after that. Replaced the belt on 10-31 but this deterioration was starting before that. I can't think of anything else. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 03:12 pm: |
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Ok so I charged the battery, it's reading 12.7 volts which is what it's supposed to, so that's apparently not the problem. When I turn the key, the oil pressure lamp comes on, but the check engine light does not illuminate. I crank it and no joy. Turns and turns but does not fire. At this point, I suspect the ECM. However, as I am waiting for my ECM spy kit to arrive, I guess I'm at a dead end. However, since it's Saturday and my bike is dead and it's really not riding weather anyway, I thought I'd ping the group here and see what suggestions you might have.
Thanks.
Oh, and regarding that 'center plug' I mentioned, that's the wire for the exhaust actuator so that wouldn't have anything to do with this, I suspect.
(Message edited by skifastbadly on November 14, 2009) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 03:31 pm: |
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Sounds like your ECM is broken. If you wiggle the two main connectors on the ECM you may get the engine light to come on, meaning you got damaged connector.
Do you have the spacer block on your ECM to prevent the seat from crushing it? |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 03:40 pm: |
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If you mean the block that is toward the front of the bike and is attached where the bolt goes through the ECM, yes that's there. So you think it could be a bad ECM or one of the connectors. I can't figure out how to get the connectors off, they have a weird pair of tabs on the side but I can't work out how they operate. I guess at this point I could just yank hard, can't get much worse.
Do ECMs generally fail slowly? Most electrical components fail all at once. Since my symptoms have been getting worse, wouldn't that point to a bad connector? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 03:52 pm: |
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The tabs are on the side of the connector, its a bit stiff due to the water seal, but you just squeeze and yank.
If your issue is what I think it is, your connector on the ECM has been long broken and barley making proper contact. Whatever you disturbed last was the straw that broke the camels back.
Turn your key on, kill switch on, and start wiggling those two connectors, if the engine light comes on and fuel pump starts whining, that pretty much confirms its the ECM. Another possibility is a broken wire in the harness, but that would be a bitch to narrow down. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 05:42 pm: |
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It's definitely in the ECM or the connectors. I turn the key on turn on the kill switch, and tap the ECM with a screwdriver handle, the fuel pump starts and the light comes on...briefly. So is the connector likely to be IN the ECM and if so, replace same?
Thanks for your guidance here. Much appreciated. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 06:25 pm: |
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I don't know if the ECM can be opened and repaired or not. Every case I have heard with the same issue, the owner replaced the ECM. I would hit up the classifieds on here and pick up a used one, as brand new they are quite expensive. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 09:52 pm: |
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I meant to ask if the connector problem was in the 'male' end, which would mean simply replacing and rewiring a connector, or in the 'female' end which would mean internal to the ECM and requiring replacement. It would appear it's in the ECM, which I have no intention of McGivering. I'll replace. No luck on used ECMs anywhere I can find, I guess I'll have to go to the dealer. This time I'm taking my own vasoline, they never seem to have any in stock. Thanks, Froggy, your assistance was quite valuable. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 10:55 pm: |
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A brand new ECM is over $300, plus there probably will be a lead time to get it.  |
Fahren
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 08:47 am: |
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If he finds a used xb ECM, but not for a uly, will it need to be re-mapped? Could he just fetch his old maps from his original ecm and map the new unit with them? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 01:45 pm: |
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All XB12 models for the same year use the same ECM, including map and other data. Any 04-07 XB12 ECM would work, but the maps would be slightly different due to various changes to the intake over the years. That can be fixed in a few seconds with ECMspy. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 06:53 pm: |
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have you checked the wires going into the ECM? *Really* *Closely*? Look for where a sharp edge might have made a micro nick. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 07:17 pm: |
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How does the ECM open? Might be worth opening it and looking for bad solder joints or metal objects rolling around. I would definitely take a good long look at every single wire in those connectors and look at the pins in the connectors. Might even go so far as to check continuity between the pins and the wires by sticking a sewing pin/needle into each wire for a contact, brush over it with liquid tape to cover the holes. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 07:22 pm: |
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So where can I score a standard xb12x map? I got the ECMSpy but there's only a race map, I'd use the standard |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 07:55 pm: |
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Does your ECM power up enough to get the map out of it? Grabbing the entire eeprom from you current computer would be the best place to get it. But it should at least start with the race map.
If you are certain it is a bad connection at the ECM and not the wires, I'll take a look and see if I can get inside and fix it. That said they often take these devices and fill them with epoxy to prevent repairs and tampering, might even be an EPA requirement. This built a really expensive business of repairing car computers and recertifying them, big scam in my opinion since it is usually just a 5 volt regulator that gets crispy in the cars. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 08:45 pm: |
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Well here's an update:
First, kudos to Reepicheep. Closer inspection did indeed reveal several bare spots in some of the wires. At first, I thought, well by god, that's the problem! Taped 'em up real good, but that didn't solve the issue. So I started fiddling around, and what I found is the following:
There are two plugs that go into the ECM, a black and a grey. The grey is the culprit. If I turn the key on and flick on the kill switch, I get neither a check engine light or power to the fuel pump. If, however, I apply pressure to the grey plug, forcing it further into the receptacle (this is starting to sound like porn, I know...) then the light illuminates and the pump cycles. In fact, any sort of pressure on the grey plug can cause the thing to cycle. There are no visible bare spots in the wires on that side. So, either there's something IN the plug which is connecting half assed, or there's something in the ECM itself which is loose.
I cannot see a way for the plug to come apart,I bet if I could get that apart, I'd find a loose pin or something slightly fried. I bet if I sprayed the inside with WD40, It'd fire right up...but that would cure the symptom only.
So I'm not entirely sure yet it's inside the ECM, though it could be.
What's your theory, Darwin?
(Message edited by skifastbadly on November 15, 2009) |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 09:11 pm: |
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I would look inside the connector at the pins and see if one is shorter than the rest, check ECM and cable end of plugs for this. It's possible that one of the wires was not installed in the plug correctly so that the contact is not making a good connection and need to be pushed back into place.
You may need to pull the wrapping off the wires so that you have a decent amount of wire to play with. Could also be a bad crimp between wire and contact, if you pull on each wire and find one that moves, that may be the culprit.
Here are the pinouts from an 03 ECM, I assume they are pretty much the same for your machine
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Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 09:24 pm: |
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Looking at it, I would start by checking pin 5 and pin 7 of the gray connector, nothing else there should cause the fuel pump not to run when you flip the power on.
Also check the grounds for the black connector. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 09:26 pm: |
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I'm not an electrician nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently, but looking at that diagram, I'm immediately thinking pin 1. If my dim understanding of this is correct, that's where the power comes in, and since the fuel pump pin is in the OTHER block, the power would be the key. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 09:34 pm: |
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You said moving the gray connector was the key, which only has +5 volts out to sensors. Honestly I would look at the black connector really good and hard since that is the main power and ground connections for the computer.
The only other thing I can think of is that it requires the memory connection to allow operation, otherwise you should get dash lights with only the black connector plugged in. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 09:54 pm: |
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I verified that the pin diagram above matches the 07. Weird, I see what you're saying the symptoms would indicate it's the black side to blame, but a squeeze on the grey fires the fuel pump and CEL |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 10:27 pm: |
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I would go with pin 5 and pin 7 on gray then, all the rest really don't matter to get the fuel pump and engine light up.
Though the pin 7 is really a return from the sensors so it shouldn't matter either.
On the 03 pin 5 is called "keep alive" in one diagram and has a 7.5 amp ECM fuse on the block. Yellow is the wire color. No info on whether this is required for operation or not, but I have seen other devices rigged so that if the memory is not connected, nothing works.
What happens if you squeeze the gray connector to get everything working, then pull that 7.5 amp ECM fuse? If everything goes dark again, that might point you in the correct place.
(Message edited by greg_e on November 15, 2009) |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 11:44 pm: |
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I figured out how to get the connector apart, the orange front end just pulls off. Tomorrow, I'll be disassembling and I'll report what I find. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 08:32 am: |
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I'm not smart, I just break stuff and keep good notes 
You can get real contact cleaner spray at wal mart or an auto parts store. I keep a can around all the time, it is less aggressive then brake parts cleaner (so it's not always stripping paint or melting plastic) and evaporates really quickly, so it's a great thing to have within reach on the bench. Get some silicone spray there as well to treat any rubber bits, they will last forever, but that's a different topic.
I'd start simple, with that, on both ends of that connector. Then make sure I didn't miss any other nicks, or maybe an internal crack in one of the wires (insulator looks fine, but wires internally are broken).
Something could have gotten burned as well. Who knows which wire was shorted, and what the implications were. In general the sensors and ECMs tend to survive shorting pretty well, but there are lots of vulnerable scenarios... |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 09:36 am: |
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I had a thought this morning... Since the fan runs after the ignition is off (ECM main power is off), I bet there is a safety feature that will not let the vehicle operate unless the ECM can control that fan while the power is off. Check pin 5 really well because I'm about 85% that is where you will find your problem.
Can you take a picture of the connectors? Are they the same Deutch style connectors that are used for the serial cable? If they are, then the orange piece comes off and there is a "spring" tab inside that holds the pins. Pull the rubber out of the back, push the spring clip away and pull the contact out of the back to free it. The female contacts should be just about flush with the gray plastic housing, the male contacts only stick out about 1 centimeter. |
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