| Author | Message | ||
     Badlionsfan |
Rocketsprink Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 07:56 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ it started with a B and that's all I'm saying. But you all would have shit your pants. BOLD NEW GRAPHICS?!?!?! | ||
| Superdavetfft |
If I were to put on my conspiracy theory hat I could see how HD could be threatened by Buell to the point where they didn't want to compete against themselves. I started riding long ago and 'graduated' (or so I thought) to a Harley, then I got my first new bagger, a loaded Ultra, top of the line etc. I spent 20k on that thing and I do love her so. About 4 years ago I picked up my 98 S3 for about $4k with 6k miles. I was SHOCKED at this beast. It had unreal power (compare that 101 hp vs a stock evo 80 incher), it rode like a caddy, just as smooth as the bagger AND I got 65mpg doing 80mph regularly. I could put in a 500 mile day comfortably too! The next year was a 00 M2, after that I found a 06 Uly and that basically made the bagger useless! The Uly had obviously way more power and great handling but it actually has MORE storage and the storage was of a much better design. If I were HD I would have been a little nervous, as more people discover Buell as I did they sure as hell would think twice before dropping $20k+ on a HD bagger versus $8-9k for a Uly. Sportsters? utterly pointless when you have a Buell there... After a number of years I could see Buell completely dominating HD sales once people get over their chrome lust and realize they can get twice the bike for half the money! Why on earth would I buy another HD when I can get FOUR Buells (if i shop wisely) for the same money as an Ultra??? Oh and then Buell pulls the 1125r out... I still have the paper tags on mine but I've already put 1000 miles on it, it's like riding a rocket sled and stable as hell. HD has.... oh yea... they don't have ANYTHING to compete with that on ANY level... imagine if Buell took the next logical step and hung the 1125 in the Uly chassis? Talk about a bagger from hell! It's probably all just driven by the bean counters in all reality but it's fun to entertain a conspiracy theory  One thing that is true though, 30 years from now we'll all be riding our Buells as proudly as those old flathead Indian die hards. dave | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Even if Buell weremaking money, maybe the tax write offs in dumping $ into Buell and shutting them down made more sence. Or maybe it was A combo of all the above. But it seems to me that they find it more profitable to shut down Buell than sell them. But what A shame an A waste. I've never wanted an American bike before Buell and now that I can't live without A bike I fear someday I will be riding rice... Please don't tell my mom that last comment... | ||
| Tommy_2stroke |
"...a bagger from hell..." Heh. Spit coffee on my Macbook. | ||
| Jaimec |
I've seen business decisions before made for purely political and self-serving interests that had NOTHING to do with generating profit. Case in point, a former employer. We had taken over a company in Maryland that absolutely HATED the fact that they were no longer in control of their own destiny. Even more, they hated that we took their data processing department and moved it lock, stock and barrel to Long Island. They fought us tooth and nail over every decision we ever made up to and past Y2K (and in the end, we were right 100% of the time). We ran one of the largest, and most cost-efficient data centers on Long Island. Many times we had potential outsourcers come in and look at our operations and walk away saying there was no way they could run the facility as inexpensively as we did. Over the years, with management shuffling, the former head of that Maryland Company found himself our new CTO. He never came right out and said it, but it was quite obvious that from Day 1 his "mission" was to dismantle our data center no matter what the costs. He even hired an outside consultant to do a three month study on whether or not it would be cheaper to outsource, or move to a more modern office facility (our building was a converted munitions factory). The consultant's very detailed study showed that the company would get far more "Bang for the Buck" by moving into a more modern facility and NOT outsourcing. He was NOT given permission to present that study to the Board of Directors. He was ordered to switch the numbers to make it look like it would be better to outsource. We had several "happy meetings" saying how this would all be a "good thing" and everybody got a copy of "Who Moved My Cheese?" The company paid a lot of money to get out of a 30 year lease on the building because they could sell it to Home Depot (environmental studies later showed that due to the level of asbestos in the building Home Depot took a pass and now many years later that building is still sitting abandoned and unused in it's original location). A lot of us (but not everyone) were "traded" to our new "masters" at IBM. Everything was moved from Long Island across the continent. Once everything in place, IBM started their typical process of laying off the people who knew how to run the system with their people who THOUGHT they knew how to run the system. Long story short, the architect of the outsourcing was laid off, and the principal owner of the company divested all assets and it no longer exists today (though parts of it have been spun off as independent entities). This is why I stated earlier: Whenever someone makes a STUPID decision in upper management, there are only TWO things that will reverse the decision: 1) That person is terminated 2) The company goes belly up. I'm unable to come up with ANY examples of an upper management person who ADMITTED to making a bad decision and changing course. Harley's days are numbered. Wandell doesn't give a **** because no matter what happens, he'll get his fat paycheck and termination bonus. | ||
| Kilroy |
Ray - Don't put Court on the spot like that. If he chooses to answer, he will emabrass you. Just a friendly suggestion. Kilroy | ||
| Court |
>>>>It's probably all just driven by the bean counters in all reality A strong case can be made that bean counters had little or nothing with the decision about Buell. | ||
| Koji52 |
Kilroy, I don't know how asking a question regarding HD's intentions is any different from the questions he asked of me. I answered with my reasoning and supported with data when possible. This is a discussion board. If questions only go one way, it's not a discussion. I invite Court to respond to my question but I can't see why i'd be embarassed. Ultimately, most of us are strangers with a common interest speaking over the internet...why do I care of being embarassed on the internet? Regardless, I look at financial statements all day and can hold my own against your, his or anyone's analysis as long as I have spent the time to research my own points, which I have for HD. If I realize that his points are correct or more reasonable than mine, I'll be the first to correct myself. I don't know you or Court or your relationship with him, but why are you speaking in his defense? And why would you assume that your potential for embarassment from dialogue conducted over the internet would carry over to me? | ||
| Kilroy |
Settle down big guy - you're taking this way too seriously. I've never met Court. He is privy, however, to information that is mere speculation by the rest of us here, so challenging him on the few facts or hints he feels is appropriate to post here is a losing battle on your part. It is pretty safe to take what he says as gospel and move on. Kilroy | ||
| Shoredairy |
a little off topic from my original post......but enthralling nonetheless. | ||
| Kilroy |
No doubt! | ||
| Koji52 |
I still don't know why I'd be embarassed by a discussion on the internet, let alone the presentation of facts that are beyond the scope of SEC filings, which the investing public does not have access to. Nonetheless, I enjoy a good discussion and would welcome any opinion anyone brings here regarding the health of HD and the future of Buell. | ||
| Boltrider |
Court, is there any significance to 34 months? I'm guessing 34 isn't a number you just came up with randomly. Unless you meant 36 months? (Message edited by boltrider on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Johntman |
Court, is there any significance to 34 months? I'm guessing 34 isn't a number you just came up with randomly. Yep. Because that's how many payments are left on my current Buell.  | ||
| Court |
I surrender. (Message edited by court on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Cobra |
bisacodyl starts with a B and it will make you shit your pants. Interesting that they were getting into the pharmaceutical game though. | ||
| Xb984r |
Buell was about to threaten Harley by introducing a bike that in no way competes with Harley?Wow the kool-aid is flowing like water here. If Buell did introduce this bike that so many "that are in the know" are hinting at, just how much do you think the MSRP would have been, would have been right up there with the expensive Ducatis, would have been cool though. | ||
| Xb984r |
Just so I get this right, H-D is going to go out of business because they shutdown a bike brand that made bikes that languished on showroom floors and dealers still had problem selling with 2 to 3 thousand dollar discounts on. I just want to be sure I have it right. | ||
| Court |
>>>I just want to be sure I have it right. You have none of it right Read it again and see if you can comprehend. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
enter the asshats. Court....you stupid construction worker you!!  (Message edited by rocketsprink on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Moosestang |
I think somebody needs a hobby. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Dale, why do you post here as you are obviously not a fan of Buell? Harley will do well on it's own to shove their foot up their ass. Watch and learn. | ||
| Keef |
If and when H-D goes down the tubes I still will have my S3T M2L XB12SS and my latest addition to the "family" 2009 1125CR thanks Erik Buell you are and will always be THE MAN   | ||
| Koji52 |
Court, awesome reply. I just got back from work though (8:00) and can't digest completely your points. Purchase price allocations are burning me right now with year end coming around. Pulling together data points supporting my point of view will take some time (although you and I seem to agree on a number of points). I'll look at your reply in detail probably tomorrow or Sunday depending on when I get back on the computer. From what I gleaned, looks like you have good points. However, pulling together data points supporting my point of view will take some time. So I'll continue this weekend. Actually, now that I see your cash flow statement reference, I realize that the latest 10-Q I've studied was Q2. I'll need to look through the Q3 statement before posting a reply. | ||
| Xb984r |
Court, I can comprehend just fine, my post wasn't aimed at you, although you have suggested that H-D will fail without Buell, I know you don't believe that and would be surprised if it did happen. Rocketsprink. I am a fan of Buell, but facts are facts, many dealers were selling Buells at deep discounts way before the 10/15 announcement. Court,Rocket and anyone else, do you really believe that H-D was worried about Buell threatening sales of H-D's? | ||
| Xb984r |
Moose, you're right someone does need a hobby, I'm not saying,I'm just saying. (Message edited by xb984r on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Shoredairy |
awesome. i may change my username to "firestarter". i want the current topic to manifest its destiny, but i have one more question. if Buell is "dead dead" as many here have said....then what is the harm in letting us fans know what was being worked on. If harley is not letting go of any buell tech or parts, can't we just get a general idea of the latest product. I understand the value of intellectual property and the legal liabilities of such. I would never ask for specific power, dimensions, capabilities, development status etc. I'm just wondering what buell had seen as the direction of product development now. Clearly the 1125 motor had alot of potential uses.....but the Uly was popular....the Blast was gone.....the dirtbike died....blah blah blah We fans of the marque are on here everyday cannibalizing ourselves over what has led to the buell downfall. Can't someone just throw us a bone.....we're loyal here. | ||
| Xbniner |
It's not that Harley needed Buell to survive. That's not the case at all. Anything Buell could have made or lost is inconsequential to Harley, which is evidenced by the fact that not only did they not sell Buell (which unlike MV, has a positive net value)they were willing to spend $125 million to get rid of it. Buell's sales are a drop in the big chrome bucket that is HD. Regardless of what they say or we assume, this was a move to stroke stockholders. | ||
| Eweaver |
"it started with a B and that's all I'm saying. But you all would have shit your pants." Was it the new Blast with a 450 single Rotax, homologated for a spec AMA roadracing class? | ||
| Sparky |
Maybe this would have been a new model coming down the pike with a lightweight tail section, thin passenger peg brackets, wave rotors, revised full fairing & rad vents.  Ref: Was this the new Buell 1125R? |
