| Author | Message | ||
     Shoredairy |
I've been following Buell since the first XB's. One of the best parts of being a Buell fan was the gossip. I just was always amazed at the unique-ness of the rumors Buell created and became accustomed to them becoming true. What do you guys think was coming down the chute next??? it's been killing me | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Uh. Nothing.  | ||
| Xnoahx |
Hoping the racing trickle down effect would have happened. Maybe some of the stuff that made the RR more powerful finding its way into the production bikes or a displacement increase. | ||
| Reducati |
big hunking cruisers, all chromed out, loud and slow, everyone will be looking at us and think we are kool....  | ||
| Amrra12 |
I'm at a point I don't care, Buell is dead and the rest go on! i'm going to ride my Buell and hope it don't brake down and if it does F(*&k it! Kawi is making a new ZX10 in 2011 and I still have my 2008 ZX10 | ||
| Rocketsprink |
it started with a B and that's all I'm saying. But you all would have shit your pants. | ||
| Froggy |
Shit your pants is an understatement  | ||
| Court |
>>>it started with a B and that's all I'm saying. But you all would have shit your pants. And it would have made a major Milwuakee manufacturer look like they'd had their machine thrown in reverse. Add to that that Buell did, last year, what Harley-Davidson, make that a couple folks at Harley-Davison, have been trying to do for years and have burned through countless millions (actually about 50 of them) and fell flat on their ass. Buell was about to make Harley-Davison look like a ••••••• convention of luddites. To quote Dennis Meskin . . . "Buell will have something better than Harley over my dead body". February 17, 1997 - secret offsite meeting at the Italian Conference Center - MKE He may have been right . . . for the time being. | ||
| Shoredairy |
i'm gonna have to sleep on that and do some unconcious de-coding. i'll cough up whatever comes to mind. prob. be wrong though | ||
| Shoredairy |
50 million huh? kinda reminds me of this bike i read about one time....lemme see...what was it....the VR1thousomethin-or-other? Geico has cash right? no chance we would have seen Buell running with the Fiat Yamahas and the Doctor would we??? | ||
| Jdugger |
Rumor is parts are starting to get very difficult to get already... | ||
| Tommy_2stroke |
Ah ha. Right. Exactly. This fits right in with my own completely uninformed speculation. Buell's innovation and increasing success was stealing H-D's spotlight. The comparison of Buell to H-D was not flattering to H-D. They were looking bad, and I'll bet Buell's upcoming products were just about to make Harley look even worse. It wasn't Buell's failings that led to its demise... just the opposite. H-D had to kill it before the situation became untenable. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Buell is dead because Harley sucked... sounds like a reasonable theory to me. | ||
| Oldog |
Rumor is parts are starting to get very difficult to get already... I would hope not a number of dealers signed on to the support plan, and oh all of the fire saled bikes no support after the public announcments, uh Class action suit? I think Tommy 2 hit the nail on the head along with the fact that the HDFS had turned into a great lead baloon } | ||
| Indy_bueller |
I think it's safe to say Buell was just beginning to hit its stride. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"it's been killing me" Ditto! There have been comments here and there (mainly after the 26th Oct ride to the factory) about 1199cc's, a lot more power, less weight, chain drive, ZTL3... I'd love to know if there were prototypes or concept drawings, maybe we'll see them one day? How many things did Harley put the brakes on over the years for fear of being embarrassed? I think I understand now why Buell never made a full on "race replica" type bike, and why there was never a new "S3T" like so many wanted... | ||
| Court |
>>>I'll bet Buell's upcoming products were just about to make Harley look even worse. To a degree few can appreciate. A small group of folks at Buell was doing what Harley-Davidson has been forming committees and spending millions trying to do for years. That Buell was the ONLY American manufacturer with increasing sales in the last year and the the success of a new Buell program was terribly threatening to some. I'd don't know if Harley-Davidson "sucks" or not but they are bleeding money, have (for the first time) a board and their executive suites filled with folks who, for the most part, have never ridden motorcycles and are coming off the two most colossal program failures in their history as they are driven to borrow at credit card rates and are trying to move production to India. Who knows? I don't . . but it's going to be an interesting next 34 months. | ||
| Swamp2 |
Court, what exactly are the colossal program failures to which you refer? | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
court, i disagree to: "That Buell was the ONLY American manufacturer with increasing sales in the last year and the the success of a new Buell program was terribly threatening to some. " why would hd cut buell off, if they would have been profitable. buell sold the most units in europe. the 1125 models were a flop. they're like lead in the stores. the design of that really good machine is ugly. you americans may see that different but here in europe, people hate it. fact. so, they sold the xb-line a lot. but with the euro3-norm, and the coming euro4-norm, it was difficult to sell the air-cooled engines. and late 2008, when we saw the 1125's unchanged in the stores, it was pretty clear, that they will fail. it was clear to me. couldn't understand why they did not change that damn pods. the cr made no difference. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Would H-D really shut down Buell solely because they've been successful at something they failed at? Isn't that the whole purpose of bringing in a subsidiary? They had no plans on trying to learn from them instead? If this is actually the case, then Harley is in even worse shape than I previously thought. It was bad enough when this decision seemed completely business-driven... now it sounds vendetta-driven. I can't help but think of the final scene in Braveheart, where William Wallace is being butchered to the cheers of the English peasants. But after a time, his dedication for his cause shines through and the King's cruelty becomes apparent and those same peasants begin to feel mercy for Wallace as if to question the King's leadership... Jut sayin'. | ||
| Koji52 |
Harley shut down Buell because Buell apparently wasn't generating a profit. MV was sold to generate cash flow. The MoCo's got a ton of problems (particularly with its debt) to deal with over the next five months and needs to conserve cash. It may have been a "vendetta-driven" event in part but was fully necessary if Buell wasn't generating positive cash flow from a business perspective. That being said, I am happy for the price I picked up my 1125R at, but would like to see HD revive Buell after the economy and markets recover. | ||
| Tpoppa |
More and more, HDI reminds me of an old man that is afraid to use the internet. They want to stay in their comfort zone, and do things they way they are used to..until they die. | ||
| Hughlysses |
MV was sold to generate cash flow. It hasn't sold yet. | ||
| Koji52 |
apologies...intends to sell. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Court can correct me if I'm wrong (and it's likely that I am)...but I think that even though Buell was making money, the total amounts were still small enough in HD's books to fall into the "margin of error" category. Half a drop in a huge bucket, vs. brand embarrassment. Which way do YOU think the egos will go? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
I am just as curious about what was next as the OP. The speculations about why HD cut Buell are interesting too, but if you are looking at the money you don't need to speculate: HD made a lot of risky loans to unqualified buyers. They did the same thing the mortgage brokers were doing and when reality struck HD realized they were screwed. With the cash cow of their finance arm on it's back they made the easiest choice: axe two perfectly good marques to free up assets. I am sure it's much easier to make that decision from a board room. For me it's just a sign of the times. A sad realization that making a great machine is not enough, being honest and enthusiastic is not profitable, and doing the right thing is no longer even a consideration...it's all about money. (Message edited by mountainstorm on November 13, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Harley shut down Buell because Buell apparently wasn't generating a profit. I'd like you to back that up, what do you base that on? I think it is inaccurate. >>>>MV was sold to generate cash flow. Be mindful that Proton (the company that owned MV Agusta before Harley-Davidson) sold it for $1 and was quoted as saying they were thrilled to get that. Harley-Davidson paid roughly $105M and of that something on the order of $80 was taxes they paid off. You tell me what you think MV Agusta is worth? Where are the flood of buyers? HD will never revive Buell nor build any Buell technology. They can't. Harley-Davidson, saying they are dispatching Buell to concentrate on their "core business" is akin to you starting your weight loss program by leaving the last potato chip on the plate. HOGwash. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I'd like you to back that up, what do you base that on? I think it is inaccurate. As you already know, Buell's numbers were never broken out. There was a recent quote from the new CEO of HD that Buell has consistently lost money. No details though. | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
It doesn't make me an expert, but I run a management consulting business and spent several years working in the business world before that. Ahh, the dot com days ... And then the bust  I don't have a H-D crystal ball, but it is VERY common for a company to cut a line (even one generating a profit) if it's deemed not part of their bigger going-forward strategy. Mike | ||
| Koji52 |
Court, There's nothing out there in HD's public filings that I saw to support whether or not Buell was making a profit or not. Increasing sales does not necessarily mean positive profit or even increasing profit, and that is the only data point I can see. So, the short answer is no. All I can use to support that statement is heresay and logic. Then again, what data do you have available that says otherwise? The MoCo as a whole has been generating negative operating cash flow since fiscal 2008. To me, it's absolutely unreasonable and stupid to drop a subsidiary that is generating positive operating cash flow when the rest of the company is in the red, so logic would work against you on this. MV is being sold to generate cash flow. The only reason why HD would buy high and sell low is if they absolutely needed to, especially in this M&A market. In this case, a huge chunk of HD's debt is coming due in April. There's not enough in the cash reserves to pay it off. Credit to luxury product manufacturers is still tight and the MoCo maintains a negative operating cash flow position. It is absolutely necessary to squeeze as much cash out of the "non-necessary" portions of the company to keep it afloat. What do I think it's worth? Well I work in business valuation so I could tell you if I had financials and projections available. They certainly won't get near $100 million for it. I think they'd be lucky to get $60 or $70. The fact that there is probably no pool of buyers partially creates that drop in value. Again, I don't have that info to look at so that's just my guess. HD will never revive Buell nor build any Buell technology. They can't. How bout some support for that? |
