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Nickg
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:32 pm: | 
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if i can get an 09/10 r for the 5995 otd..i will buy another one... |
Danxb9r
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:44 pm: |
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I honestly feel the dealer network had a lot to do with the future of Buell. Every Harley dealer I have been into Maybe had 1 or 2 bikes and they were shoved in the corner not to be seen. Than there own sales screw would talk garabage about them. I have never bought anything new in my like because I can't afford the inflated prices plus you loose your ass when you do buy new and I like to trade up to often. But when Harley was offering 5k rebate I bit and bought new and sure enough the place I bought from was telling me I was asking for it for not buying a extended warranty as "Buell's are always in the shop" with talk like that you are scaring customers away! Luckly for me I have had 4 XB's in the past and all of them have been extrememly reliable. If you are someone who keeps things for the long haul new is probably a better deal but if you like to trade up often go used! |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:48 pm: |
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I hang most of the responsibility on the dealers.
The problem is that the good dealers are being lumped in with the bad dealers in the pricing game.
If you are looking to sell every Buell you have as quickly as possible to get rid of them and never have another one darken your door, that is fine.
The rest of us who have been devoted to Buell are not only selling what we have, but we are seeking even more models to sell. The only way this works is if we are making money doing it. |
Pilotvtail
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:21 pm: |
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Hey Zacks and IronJim...Racine here as well. |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:33 pm: |
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Ft_bstrd +++1
""All of them should as harley is offering a 5k rebate. Surely they arent that ignorant" "
It's called capitalism. For years dealers, "good" and "bad" alike sat on lots of Buells and sold too few of them to maintain the brand in Harley's eyes. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is the outcome. Many dealers were selling under MSRP for recent years of Buell sales. Under MSRP means your business plan is not being met and eventually you have to cut corners somewhere else in your operation.
Now that some dealerships are trying to recoup some of their lost money from carrying them on their floor plans for too long and trying to keep some of the incentive money by not passing 100% on to buyers, that is being depicted as evil by some here.
Well here in this country we have laws. The law of Supply & Demand is now in play on Buells.
First some back ground.
We sold our inventory at MSRP - incentive + freight + about $500 and it was a great bargain that people came from 100+ miles away and bought up. We then added $500 to that cost and ordered as many as we could (too many, I have 7 unfilled orders with deposits at Buell) and took all of a local dealers inventory who opted out of the transition agreement going forward with Buell support. I am now trying to go as far away as 695 miles one way for three 2008 1125R's and adding the cost of transit on those. The more who agree, the lower my cost to get them because I can haul 6 bikes in our race trailer spreading the cost accordingly. Note I said cost; meaning I am not making anything on the added mark up beyond the $500 profit I dialed in to begin with for bikes I don't have.
I could get one 1125CR too. So far the three people who expressed interest in that bike have asked for the high bar kit thrown in, or object to my charging them to go get these bikes.
These prices are still well under MSRP, close to half, and plenty of buyers loved their full price bikes bought in August.
Why would I spend all this time to make less than $500 compared to other sales I could be attending to? Because I love the brand and I am trying to get as many Buells in my area as possible to help augment my service departments ability to support the brand for seven more years. But it amazes me how the sharks out here begrudge, or even object to, me making a measily $500 profit for my dealerships efforts. |
Milleniumx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:40 pm: |
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Jammin, I for one appreciate your support of the community and think making an honest profit requires no apology or explanation. Why would anyone do it otherwise?
You're thinking long term with the service/support annuity, which is healthy - But still yet challenging in today's "quarter by quarter" business environment.
Thanks man!
Mike |
Gotlime
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:07 pm: |
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Jammin,
If you sold the bike at MSRP, how much would you make? Pre 10/15. No incentive, no freight.
Now you've added $500 to that profit between cost and MSRP? Did I read that correctly?
Sell them for whatever you can guys!!
And buyers, buy them for whatever you can>
I got my 09 CR with the highbar for 6k OTD. That is a good deal. Dealer closer wanted to sell me a bike for MSRP - incentive + TTT. I'm not paying 2k more than I have too. But once my bike was off the market, I'm sure others took that deal and were happy with it.
My problem is the delaer with the higher price treated me very poorly (hung up the phone, blamed me for Buells demise, etc) and talked very poorly about the delaer I bought my bike from. That wasn't necessary. I don't begrudge them making as much as they can, but there's no need to insult prospects and other HD dealers in the process. I will not nuy parts or get my bike serviced at that delaer even though tyey are 10 miles from my house. I will encourage others to steer clear of them as well.
Just my thoughts................. |
Nickg
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:26 pm: |
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jammin'...I am no fool. I work in the automotive biz and have worked at dealerships doing marketing and consultant work. I know that there is back money that you will get for a sold unit. so please don't lie, I know all about it(i used to help determine it) the holdback that you could lose because you were x units short will cost alot more than the "only makin 500 profit" on a bike crap...no dealership sells below true cost (not tissue cost)under most circumstances beleive me it is better to short the last few to make the bigger percentage than it is to frump over evry sale and get less in the end. only short sighted dealers or people who don't know the game do that.
the dealers did buell in, plain and simple.
I said i would before and i will renew it...if i can find a 09/10 r for 5995 otd...i am sold on it |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 12:47 pm: |
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Immediately after H-D announced the death of Buell there was a big pop in demand as some dealers had bikes for very low prices. These initial bikes were gobbled up within a few days by riders who were on the fence about Buell to start with and jumped on the deal. However, unless every dealer within 500 miles of me refuses to update their website they all appear to have the same Buells sitting (at MSRP-$5k) that they did two or three weeks ago. Could it be that 10/15-10/20 was the peak of demand for Buells and it has now cooled as quickly as it heated up? If the bikes are sitting unsold, even at only roughly $7000, yikes...
To the dealer that is finding other bikes at dealers and selling them, obviously it is your prerogative to run your business however you wish. However realize that this is a risky strategy too. You could just as easily be sitting on a trailer full of bikes you simply cannot sell at the prices you want.
To the consumers, it is not a great deal at $7000 (You get $5000 of MSRP! What a deal!). In the consumer mindset today full retail is $7000 and we negotiate down from there. There may be exceptions, but the dealers who assume they will find a buyer at the old MSRP-$5k will be sitting on those bikes for a long time.
My guess is the typical Buell buyer has changed somewhat in the past few weeks. Now as much bargain hunters as Buell enthusiasts. And unfortunately for these dealers, time is on the bargain hunters side.
The experience with my local dealer soured me from considering buying a Buell period, much less H-D. For far too many years they have been selling Harleys at MSRP+ and can't seem to grasp that times have changed. |
Danxb9r
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 10:52 am: |
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Honestly, I jumped at my deal when I first heard as I knew demand was going to sky rocket. Now that the market has changed so that means supply is going down and demand is still pretty steady. Makes sense for them to ask more for them than.. I still think a new bike with this power at $6500-7k out the door is a awesome deal and probably won't be a deal like this again. If you are on the fence about it you better get one while you still can and quick biatching over $500 buxs!! Just not worth it.. |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:00 pm: |
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"jammin'...I am no fool. I work in the automotive biz and have worked at dealerships doing marketing and consultant work. I know that there is back money that you will get for a sold unit. so please don't lie, I know all about it .. "
You sir, should be careful who you call a liar, especially when it is obvious to many here who know facts on the dealer side of this, know what you apparently do not.
A Harley dealership does not have the same back side, hold-backs and other deceptive practices that the auto dealers have schemed up to dupe consumers with. In your own words, you helped consult to create some of these.
This Buell close-out incentive is a first of its kind in recent times, at least since I have been a sales manager, and as far as I know since buying Harley's and Buells dating back to 1983.
(Message edited by Jammin_Joules on November 13, 2009) |
Cherry_bomb
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:20 pm: |
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you lucky guys over there...here in europe - nothing. same prices as always. they don't sell any of the 1125. the xb's are pretty much gone.
1125 never has been popular over here...
xb cost 16'000 us$ here in switzerland (18'000 us$ in germany)
1125 cost 17'800 /around 20'000...
you lucky guys... |
Gotlime
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:24 pm: |
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But you guys get BMWs cheap!!! |
Nickg
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:25 pm: |
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i did not say i helped...I determined the best course to GET it....I was a consultant, both for manufacturers(who use this to set sales goals with btw) and dealers (who made VERY good use of this)
Guys who live/work in the biz, know that the real moneies are in volume holdbacks. this is why you see dealers willing to sell "all in" in month end and qtr ends. if HD does not do that then they have seriously stupid dealers (who bank on per bike profit only?). The front money is always alot less than the back money
but hey, what do i know...now the dealers are selling above list price on these, based on the cost i have seen they are selling at msrp(or a grand over) with no discount, less the 5k rebate. |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:29 pm: |
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" ...the dealers who assume they will find a buyer at the old MSRP-$5k will be sitting on those bikes for a long time. ..."
Then imagine the dealers who are sitting on a dozen or even dozens of bikes still selling them at or near MSRP with no discount.
I have outstanding deposits for 9 Buells that I can not find bikes to sell. These, and others, were taken in good faith and orders entered per Buell instructions with names and deposits attached supposedly given priority. Unfortunately I've since learned that Buell/Harley shipped to many dealers who ordered bikes without deposits.
Now that I have been told it is highly unlikely I will get these last 9, I have been searching on H-Dnet.com for bikes as far as 3 states away. There are bikes closer, that I have not already acquired from other dealers, but those dealers are not giving them up because they plan on selling at or near MSRP when this peak demand subsides and the law of Supply & Demand swing prices back. At least that is their story to me.
I have sold out of all my inventory in two weeks, and acquired another 50% of that and sold & delivered them as well. These were priced near (MSRP - incentive - set up). Why would my sales team ignore potential Harley buyers to search the internet for matching bikes, call those dealers, do the paperwork for transfers, put a tech on the clock in a truck and pay diesel to go get a bike, to sell it at absolute cost? What part of business success allows for incurring extra expenses to acquire bikes for sale at cost and not charging for those expenses? That is a formula for failure and closing our doors. Buell owners here who think a dealer should do that are as much at fault for the failed dealer/owner relationship as the dealer they despise.
In the last four weeks we have sold more Buells than in all of 2009 before it. And realize we sold at least 60% of the Buells in Colorado in 2009 before this. Probably 35% of the pre-sales came from buyers over 100 miles south, and the other side of 3 Buell dealers.
So don't tell me our prices are not competitive. Don't call me a liar either. Many of our customers own multiple Buells and are some of the more popular & informed members of BadWEB. They are knowledgeable and informed.
Maybe lost hear is the basic premise of a sale. Do you know when a sale happens?
When the seller and the buyer come together on a price that is mutually beneficial to both parties; that is when a sale occurs. Whether that price is $500 more than a no-service dealer with dusty cobwebbed Buells in Tennessee or $500 less than a guy in Jersey, that really doesn't matter, well, at least until you come on this board and let others scrutinize you.
Hey, I bought a BigMac at full price last week and I read elsewhere on BadWEB that a guy got through college dumpster diving a local McDonald's and got his free. Damn, I guess I got took. |
Milleniumx1
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 01:00 pm: |
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Jammin, you got screwed on the BigMac. I was carrying my old US Air Force military ID yesterday, since many local businesses offer freebies and discounts to Veterans.
At the McDonalds nearest my house, they were giving Veterans a BigMac value meal for free. I even had the nerve to ask if they'd swap the BigMac for a Quarter Pounder, and they did 
Mike |
Sburns2421
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 01:27 pm: |
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JJ,
For the first time, there remains a finite amount of new Buells available to be sold. Before 10/15 there was a pool of potential buyers. The fact that the brand is dead and future resale or trade-in value will be virtually non-existent has thinned that pool considerably (although some bargain-hunters also jumped in as well). So anyone close to buying one jumped when prices were slashed, that was the huge bump you confirmed in your last post, selling as many in the past four weeks as the previous forty-two for the year (1000% rate increase?)
The question remains whether demand will fall off faster than the remaining supply. No one knows for sure, and we obviously are of opposite opinions. While I don't think they will suddenly only sell if priced at $3500 or some insanely low number, I also do not think there will be people clamoring for them willing to pay old MSRP-5k until the last one is sold in the country. Basically the people that really wanted a Buell now have one, selling what is left will be more difficult than many dealers anticipate.
If you have developed a clientele willing to buy from you but not closer dealers you are obviously doing something right, or the other dealers are horribly wrong. Either way in the short-term it could be good for you.
Lastly, I am certain I didn't imply dishonesty or call you a liar. If I do (I won't), THEN get defensive... |
Nickg
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 01:39 pm: |
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you are right...to buy these was a study in becoming a wooden indian. the dealers here sold at list + freight+ setup+ tax + tags..and often try(tried) to mark above list...so they sat. dealers that got it, who wanted to make the sale, did sell them.
I can only speak for what i discovered out here. I always like Buells, but at the price(considering resale value), they simply could not exist to me when i could buy a Ducati for similar $ and have almost retail resale if i decided to bail.
Therin lies the crux so to speak.
if you want to sell a bike...i will pay 5995 max... |
Danxb9r
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 04:00 pm: |
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Nick,
Obviously no one near you is selling them at that price or you would have one. Good Luck in your hunt but I think they mis judged the market and wasn't expecting such a demand at those fire sale prices. Most dealers have since adjusted there pricing. I know my local dealer wouldn't budge at the price I got offered in Chicago but they are all out of 1125r's now so someone must be buying them at MSRP-5k rebate. Good Luck! |
Nickg
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 04:38 pm: |
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they are all sold out by me...but i have a few leads on some. Even if i don't get another, i am happy. |
Swamp2
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 08:15 pm: |
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If I could easily find another for the 6k I paid for my CR (prep & freight included), I'm ashamed to say I might find a way to rationalize it.
It's that cool of a bike. I'm trying hard not to look... |
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