| Author | Message | ||
     Gentleman_jon |
Very perceptive article on the 1125 R and RR racing program by Chris Ulrich. I was very interested to learn about the contribution that experienced Crew Chief Dave McGrath made to this program, and how much even a brilliant design like the 1125R needs from a professional Crew Chief who knows what it is like to race and win at the top level. Check it out. One of the issues it raises is the matter of the 21º fork angle so beloved by Buell. I never thought this was a particularly good idea, so I was interested to see that the professional racers don't think so either. | ||
| Steve_a |
Dave McGrath will admit that he never thought a number of items on the 1125's chassis geometry were a good idea, including the steep steering head angle, when he first came to Buell. He'll also tell you he believes that the 1125RR, with those same chassis details, was the best handling bike on the track at the New Jersey Superbike race. His latest summary of the situation, "I don't know why, but it just works." | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
It's often an excellent plan to read an article before commenting on it. "Offset steering head bearing cups increase the steering angle from 21 to 22 degrees, also increasing the trail from 84mm to 89mm: this is one of the changes that we tried at the November VIR tests, and it made the 1125 much more stable." | ||
| Steve_a |
Gentleman Jon, I'm very aware of what we did. In general, most Buell racers from ProThunder days on ran a little more trail than the street bikes. Most racers will want something more like 90mm of trail, trading off some quickness for better feel of the front tire at the traction limit. The 1 degree change in fork rake with the offset bearing caps gets largely eaten by the change in rear ride height; most 1125R DSB and American Sport Bike set-ups ran the back taller than the front, reducing the rake increase. On a Computrack, the set-up was not all that far from street geometry. | ||
| Davegess |
did anyone else notice that Suzuzki is offering kit engines for lease by race? Full on factory spec motors. This would be a direct response to the Buell 1125RR program and looks like another step toward a very competitve superbike class. Too bad the 1125RR won't be around in any numbers to join the party  | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Steve, At the pain of repeating myself, may I point out that commenting on an article without reading it is often not very helpful? I am sure board members would be interested in your experience in setting up a racing 1125R, especially as it is in rather direct contradiction to Chris Ulrich's report on his experience with David McGrath. Perhaps you might read the article, and then identify areas with witch you agree and disagree, and why. In the article, it appears that they have lowered rather than raised the rear right height as you did. "Once up to speed, I concentrated on making the Buell more stable through the long corners. We started small by taking 2mm of ride height out of the rear, which improved all-around stability, making the bike more planted on the brakes, and also producing more feel and feedback from the front through the corners. So we kept lowering the rear of the bike until we went too far and it stopped turning - we eventually settled on a shock length of 324 mm. Lowering the rear of the RR increased trail which increased stability, but also took away swing arm angle and reduced rear traction." | ||
| Eboos |
Disclamer: I too didn't read the article. Doesn't the RR already have a rear ride height that is higher then the 1125R? Not trying to step on anyone's toes, but it seems like Steve was providing greater insight as to how the bike got to where it is. | ||
| Firstbuell |
gentleman, please start acting like 1 ! [this may well apply to other posters, also the Racing section of this board is VERY fortunate to have 'factory' steve_a posting, repeatedly, in such a detailed & informative way on so many relevant subjects we're receiving insights [not our own speculations], directly 'from the ground', thru someone brought into Buell on purpose to 'program manage' whatever needed doing - steve was doing exactly that, up until 10/15 anyway..... I really wanna hear whatever steve [& anony & whomever else was once 'inside'] wishes to discuss/reveal/suggest about Buell Racing tho' any of us could nit-pick steve's & the others' words, why choose to do so? Nit-pickers - please save that energy for each other - STOP arguing with our precious few 'insiders', so they don't decide to get quiet...... please | ||
| Dsmcg |
The chassis settings are VERY rider specific. In the AMA paddock, the range of ride heights front and rear varied greatly. Chris commented what the bike was doing and we worked to improve his comfort so he could go faster. The motorcycle was set up for Taylor Knapp directly from the AMA national at New Jersey - a very different venue. Taylor prefers any bike he rides very high in the front. Cory West settled in on settings that were very close to Taylor - even though he worked through different combinations, he ended up 1mm different in front and the same shock length. Danny Eslick (remember different bike configuration / tire size & spec) liked the bike lower overall. His settings were much closer to standard 1125R spec. I have made this comment more than once; when prepping a production bike for superbike, typically you bolt on good grip (read good slicks) the thing ties itself up in knots. Then you stack on more horsepower and things really get out of hand. The 1125 chassis didn't even flinch. We have ALLOT more power in development. The chassis doesn't care. Over 10 years I have heard the word CHATTER in my sleep. Not in the last 12 months. This chassis does not chatter. This is with an un-modified frame, OE triple clamps and forks, and Un-modified (chain conversion) swingarm. I did read the article. I am disappointed Chris did not give credit where it is due. I did not build this bike. Rick, Tony, Bob, Steve, Keith, Ed, Kurt, ERIK - all the designers and analysis engineers did. I'm glad Chris feels; "The bottom line is that while the 1125RR wasn't competitive to win in 2009, it had the potential to finish in the top five on a good day at the right track. Add 15 horsepower and the right rider and it could fight for the podium on a good day" That's against a field of factory superbikes. That says everything about the folks that designed and built the 1125R - a fantastic job from a small, dedicated, and gifted group of people. DSMcG (Message edited by dsmcg on November 10, 2009) (Message edited by dsmcg on November 10, 2009) | ||
| Court |
Dave: Thank you very much for the insight. You made history this last year, it was amazing. Court | ||
| Eboos |
Not to worry, Chris Ulrich also wasn't competitive to win either. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
What Court said. | ||
| 4cammer |
From Sport Rider magazine 12/09: A Well-Oiled Machine (Interview w/Mladin) - Mladin- "And a purpose-built race bike in the Buell (1125RR). I think what people ought to know in the motorcycle side of things, if the Buell right now, at this race(final race of the year), three months into their race development, if the Buell had as much motor as what we had, it'd win the race by probably 15 seconds. So, I don't know. Is that because Buell builds a better motorcycle than Suzuki or Honda or anybody else or is that because they are allowed to do whatever they want? Good on Buell...." He goes on a bit, but the point is there. It was a fast bike, people can make up their own mind if it was/is a purpose built bike, 'cause they all really are. Especially Pegrams. Interesting article. | ||
| Davegess |
Dave, are you willing to say WHY it doesn't chatter? It may be sorta proprietary, my thought is that this group at Buell understands MC dynamics on a level that may be unsurpassed in the industry, but it may not matter at this point. Actually knowing why may not help one design something that can pull off this feat. Chatter is dreaded by racers everywhere. | ||
| Anonymous |
He could, but then we'd have to kill ya, and we KNOW where you live. | ||
| Davegess |
 that's what I was afraid of. I put the handling thing down to knowledge. The Buell team knows things other don't, or more likely the others may know it but don't understand what it means.  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Dave, You may have a valid point. Generally speaking, small organizations (such as Buell) are more adapt at implementing changes and advances more readily than larger organizations (such as the I-4 makers.) | ||
| Buell2001b |
when you say the I-4 makers you mean the japps!!! | ||
| Firstbuell |
plus BMW & MV [& perhaps others, later....] | ||
| Court |
>>>>are more adapt at implementing changes and advances more readily than larger organizations Mobile, agile and hostile . . . . Tou quote Court . . . about 1996 . . . we are the same kids who hot rodded '57 Chevy's and we're back with powerful computers and some of the best education you can get. NOTE: Scott Miller of HD morphed that to a "we're loud and we're not going away" or words to that effect t-shirt. . . | ||
| 1313 |
 I've seen that somewhere... 1313 | ||
| Eweaver |
I wonder how much of the tuning of the RR was funneled into the latest flash we got for the 1125. | ||
| Rocketman |
I had that T shirt once upon a time. But then Scott Miller told me years ago they'd tried an XB9 with Renthal type bars, when I asked why Buell had opted for a 'sports fighter' rather than a streetfighter to continue from the S1 X1 theme, and he said they couldn't control the head shake. Did he mean chatter, or was he just putting me off the scent of things to come, lol. The 12S. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
Rocket, I've got 30,000 miles on an XB9 with Renthal type bars, and I have never had even the slightest bit of headshake. That includes lost of "normal" riding, wheelies, stoppies (I don't seek these things out often, but things happen ) gravel, proper tire inflation, low tire inflation, MSF parking lot drills, and two days at Mid Ohio raceway. Ask CeeJay, he was right behind me at Mid Ohio (probably after lapping me ) as we were coming off the front straight by the pits. I was leaned to the left, and accelerating hard, and clipped (well, more like rode over) the curbing for the pit entry point. I was looking down track working on form, so by the time I saw it coming there was nothing left to do but unweight from the bike a little and trust that Erik and Abe and others did better in mechanical engineering classes then I did The bike just went right over it, caught a little air leaned over off a big bump at probably 80 MPH, landed smooth as can be and kept accelerating. Not a hint of wiggle. Unlike my old Yamaha, which i could make go into a tank slapper by releasing the bars on any downhill coast. My Kawasaki's were better, but they will wobble from time to time. Not a problem on the KDX-200... that front wheel is rarely on the ground If there is defect in the XB chassis... I haven't found it yet. (I gotta shoot you an email also... the Saab 93 SE Hot is getting a little surgish when getting on the turbo... I'm suspecting a sticky BPV or a vacuum leak, but could use some advice) | ||
| Ceejay |
shortest distance between two points and all, I thought is was a new line...  How long have most people been at the motorbike biz? 50 yrs. tops, its a very real idea that someone could have an upper hand, and riding a bike which I still view as a concept development bike(XB9r), I'm good with it and think Buell does (did?) understand a few things better than most. If you had been riding typical type wheelbase and rake/trail bikes for the past twenty years and then hopped on to a Buell with what is considered drastically different numbers what would you think? Flip it, ride a buell for twenty and then get on a GSXR? That's the problem for Buell isn't it? Most folks have been riding the big four for so long adapting to a newer bike with different geometry is going to be tough-how well do you deal with something new in your job, and these guys are hanging it out at 190 mph! Hell it took Mladin almost half the year to get himself up to speed and that was from an 08 to an 09 GSXR1000. | ||
| Rocketman |
Rocket, I've got 30,000 miles on an XB9 with Renthal type bars, and I have never had even the slightest bit of headshake. The instant I clapped eyes on the XB9 I knew it was meant to be a 12S. Miller was covering up the existence of things to come was all. As if I believed Miller when he told me such nonsense. I might be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. The only chatter I see was from Miller bullshitting that day  Rocket |
