| Author | Message | ||
     Pogue_mahone |
i am sure it is working its way thru that hd will do something as ill advised as re badging the 1125's and calling it a "New" hd sportbike. if anything of the like happens in the near future.....i would be sickened even more. and nothing would surprise me either. somehow i need to get an 1125 and a xb12.maybe even get one of the later tubers too.saw the gray and orange later model(not sure,dont know them well) for sale near me for 3400 bucks today. | ||
| Froggy |
Not going to happen. They can't even get their current water cooled land barge to sell. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
This is their business idea from their interviews: throw a number of 883 parties. They offer free beer, bikini shows and discounted t-shirts. They count the number of tees sold at these events as an indication of the number of future buyers of the 883. Apparently, unfamiliar with the concept of alcohol fuelled wannabees, it looks like they used a 1:1 ratios. HD was very surprised when their ramped up production of 883s didn't sell. They considered dropping the 883 line but chose not to. That was from their reports. Looks like they opted to cut the Buell line instead, perhaps thinking that Buell competed with their 883s. Who knows? Looking at the bios of their recent VPs, quite a turnover lately, doesn't inspire confidence. None of them are coming from real successes. They talk Sigma crap, which nearly always precedes a company's fail. Or move to Mexico. Or both. They talk like they're anticipating a strike, this December I believe, So how much of this is pre-contract posturing? My sources: HD executives public conference call transcripts discussing each of the recent Quarterly reports are on seekingalpha (search: HOG). Scary reading for Halloween. | ||
| Buewulf |
They count the number of tees sold at these events as an indication of the number of future buyers of the 883. ...it looks like they used a 1:1 ratios That is so stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to begin! I'd love to meet the giblet head that came up with that idea, and the jackasses who signed off on it thinking it would work. I have always assumed that HD killing the Buell brand for good (as opposed to selling) because it is so ingrained/integrated with HD was just a farce. If these are the minds at work, then I am more afraid for Buell than ever. (Message edited by Buewulf on October 29, 2009) (Message edited by Buewulf on October 29, 2009) | ||
| Pogue_mahone |
arch hahahahahah that was funnay...is a sick kind of way | ||
| Iamarchangel |
That's the way I read the stuff. The transcripts of serious financial people asking HD execs hard question about the quarterly reports are there for public view. The Q3 one is there too. From Q2 Transcript. Keith E. Wandell You know, first of all, I think for us is a little bit unusual, if you go back to the first quarter and our retail sales weren’t down quite as much as some of the other industries. And then April, May, June, they were down more significantly and so we just believe that given the economic back drop, given the high levels of unemployment, I think which is a -- we have a close correlation probably to, as well as consumer confidence and the fact that we are selling the bigger ticket discretionary items, have impacted us. But on the other hand, if you look at -- and I know the information we’ve given was in the releases but if you look at the sale of motor clothes, as an example, parts and accessories, even though they were down, they weren’t down nearly as significantly as retail motorcycle sales. And also if you look at our riders edge participation, that was up 7% year over year. And so all of those things again point to the stickiness, if you will, of our brand. They point to the fact that our customers are still very loyal to the brand and that there’s even more people out there looking to come into the sport through riders edge, as an example, and maybe they just can’t afford to buy a bike right now as they get through the program. But we think all those things are positives at this point in time. From Q1 Transcript Thomas Bergmann A few weeks ago, our Young Adult Outreach Team rode into Austin’s South by Southwest Music Festival where they created an impromptu hang out dubbed The Golden Horse Saloon. The spotlight was on the new 883 Iron Dark Custom and they made thousands of live impressions and even more on Facebook, MySpace and Twitter during the three-day festival. There is no doubt that the Harley-Davidson experience is alive in the marketplace with customers of all ages.} | ||
| Greg_e |
So it looks like (from a bean counter point of view) that Harley will be reduced to fashion accessories and parts sales and will no longer build any new (complete) bikes. How's that for taking things to a complete (possible) idiocy? | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Or to carry on from the spirit of the original post: what if HD resurrected the XLCR 1000 using the Buell? That's where my Harley buddies and I diverged way back. They went motor-couch and I went racing. In my mind, Buell was perfecting the XLCR. That's why I was interested and came to buy my 9R. | ||
| Court |
Whatever . . . unfortunately he got caught with his bean in someone else's jar and has "chosen to pursue other interests". >>>Looking at the bios of their recent VPs, quite a turnover lately, doesn't inspire confidence. None of them are coming from real successes. There is one, possibly two folks, among the current crop of execs who "get it" and could turn HD around. One has been neutered and the other is likely to be. We have decisions being dictated by the "Chair Mom" of "Club Mom". My stock is sold so I'll be watching for entertainment only. But the first thing they should do is hire better spokespersons. | ||
| Buewulf |
I was always of the opinion that HD should have ventured into the sport, sport-standard, and adventure bike market under their own brand 12 years ago. They had the money, the market had the momentum, and I think they could have competed well with other premium brands like Ducati and BMW if the performance of the bikes were up to snuff. Now that they have invested so much time in defining what the HD culture and experience is supposed to be like (a culture I don't relate to at all), it would be interesting to see how they would overcome that stigma and go forth with a plan like that, now. I'd be shocked if they ever did anything like that, but it would be interesting nonetheless. | ||
| Snackbar64 |
If Krispy Kreme with a simple award winning formula can damn near go out of business, so can HD as far as I am concerned. | ||
| Swordsman |
"I was always of the opinion that HD should have ventured into the sport, sport-standard, and adventure bike market under their own brand 12 years ago. " It would even be a fairly simple thing to export the freedom-seeking rebel image over to the other catagories. Adventure Bike: "Because the road to freedom isn't always paved." Sport standard: "For those times you don't want to scare the neighbors (just make 'em nervous)" Sport bike: well, "badass" is pretty much what every other manufacturer is peddling right now anyway, shouldn't be hard to do ~SM | ||
| Pogue_mahone |
snack lmao!! krispy kreme is a one trick pony just like hd is with 47 different "doghnuts" this will be intersting to watch.meanwhile i am going to ride my xb till it falls apart.maybe then i'll go speed triple shopping.or start buying xb's and keep mine running. | ||
| Buewulf |
It would even be a fairly simple thing to export the freedom-seeking rebel image over to the other catagories. I agree. The HD brand could fit for sure (nice ad quips, SM!). My biggest concern would be the culture: how the bikes would be treated in dealerships by staff and the "motorcycles should have lots of chrome, be heavy, and have a push rod V-Twin made in Wisconsin" types. Would other bike categories be treated like the Buells were, you think? Or would having the HD logo on them change the game at the dealers? | ||
| Rightpecial |
"Would other bike categories be treated like the Buells were, you think? Or would having the HD logo on them change the game at the dealer?" -Buewulf Well the badge didn't help the V-Rod any. Almost every dealer I went to viewed the Rod as an alien object. Of course I would fire up my loud CFR pipe and the customers would be impressed, but they still didn't know what to make of it. | ||
| Toomanyhobbies |
(sets up soap box) ahem... IMO Harley had built itself on the backs of racers and dirty old biker guys. In the 90s a lot more professionals became interested in getting some of that badass-ness for their midlife crisis. I think Harley then tried to make their bike a premium label to cater these new clientele, and I think that's when they kinda planned their own demise. They were building bikes like a Joe Everyguy brand and selling them like BMWs. I think they flooded the market with bikes and once they did, the Harley name wasn't as exclusive or special. The thing about premium brands is that they sell goods because their product, although more expensive, offers the best quality. Harley should have spent less money building two ginormous plants/expanding production and instead spent money on expanding markets, and R&D. I mean lets be real, If Harley offered suspensions & brakes, better than or equal to Ohlins/brembo but american made standard, more comfortable seats, an engine than sounds good and runs smooth who would even debate? I think they could totally be that premium brand. On the other end, if they wanted the be the "people's bike" they could do that too making the bike affordable and accessible (I think Yamaha/Honda make attractive alternatives because of this) I mean a good majority of Harley bikes cost more than some of the best selling American CARS and Ducatis etc. Somebody needs to get into Harley's "head" that you can't have both premium price and be the people's brand, and if you did, you have to understand supply and demand REALLY well. So anyway, when the market began to meet it's saturation, instead of making the bikes affordable or scaling back production of existing lines, Harley decided let's give subprime financing instead. So yeah crap, turd etc later, here we are. Buell, I think had a pretty good grasp on this. They had quality and performance at a reasonable cost. The production was small and slowing production, would be relatively easy with so few people builing bikes. I think the main obstacle to the brand going mainstream was Harley's half assed sales effort and training. People have been saying for years that Buell should be sold with other sportbikes. Maybe styling is another obstacle but that's pretty subjective. I love my XB but I can see why someone who wants a "sportbike" might not see Buell's unique design as what they've always dreamed of. Cutting off Buell was a terrible move threefold: it cut off access to a portion of the market, it cut off a cutting edge of it's R&D, it cut out a healthy part of the company to protect problematic areas of the company. Another thing that bothers me is that if you have great quality bikes, you cannot get repeat business if your bikes are the same year after year... and no, changing the color availability is not "changing it up" I mean the VROD is already several years old. If you look at the GSX-R or the CBR RR has had a bunch different changes. Everyone wants the latest and greatest. I suspect Erik was ready with the 1125 long before it's release but I bet Harley with their philosophy pushed its release back. Man, I've been wanting to vent that. | ||
| Fast1075 |
One of the problems with Harley is the "King's new clothes" thing...take the same bunch of parts and put them together differently...come up with bold new flat black as a color...for cripe's sake it is the same old stuff....it's a Mr. Potato Head bike...what could motivate someone to buy a "new" model...throw on some ugly gaithers...paint it black...blah, blah.. My earliest memories of Harleys were not road couches, but RACERS...dirt racers, but still racers...I cannot fathom how a company so rooted in racing and performance back in the day can turn such a blind eye to the heritage...one perspective is the bad boy hells angels chopper biker dude image....the REAL bad boy Harley image is the board track racer and the years and years of the flattrack racers...and hill climbers and bonneville racers...how the hell does a company NOT make a transition that encompasses road racing and street sport???? it is insane. Toomanyhobbies brings up a good point about market saturation...Our company sells A/C systems...everybody wants one...and some have to have one...if all we sold were the super double triple deluxe guaranteed to last a lifetime models....we would soon be hungry and broke... At the rate Harley has been building bikes, they are no longer exclusive....they have become the mundane...unless you buy into the kings new clothes deal...and now it looks like the focus is narrowing more... (Message edited by fast1075 on October 29, 2009) | ||
| Jake318 |
Toomany Erik Buell had a built prototype version of the 1125 in 1998 | ||
| Bads1 |
Toomany Erik Buell had a built prototype version of the 1125 in 1998 Where did you get that info?? | ||
| Bueller83 |
I think that Harley pushed the 1125 too early and so they had many problems with the 08 and now people are very weary about buying the 1125 | ||
| Iamarchangel |
I think every HD shop has pics like these upon their wall. Fast1075, and I, suggest they have forgotten why.   | ||
| Birdy |
A XR-750 that was street legal I might buy. But he rest of the crap H-D rolls out...well I'm not dead vet and don't own a vest, other than a Fly-vest. Wait that XR-750 I seem to remember a guy building something better like a XB12. | ||
| Brumbear |
I hear they are gonna make the Elvis edition to cash in on this rock and roll icon they been hearing about No wait that is the Stray Cats where you been man | ||
| Pogue_mahone |
my earliest hd memories are of the flat track racers and that no 1 plate !!i was 10 and we gobbled up those magazines like candy !! and fast...teh mr potato head LOL so freakin right.it is the same old thang....different amounts of chrome and different colors,but same old thang. LOL brumbear  | ||
| Birdy |
Yea I read where H-D laid off 80% of there engineers, what’s that 4 out of the 5? Now the 500 Stylist you know they’ll keep. After all you just have to a bunch of “Yes Men” stand around and agree with you about what color black to paint the “New” bikes. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Flat black, gloss black, chrome black, candy black, black on black: decisions, decisions. Wait, have we used the Spinal Tap "None More Black" yet? | ||
| Slaughter |
Ohhh Spinal Tap! The "Ultimate" Hardley rock group. Maybe they can re-start their "Smell the Glove" tour? | ||
| Brumbear |
hey now black is faster Henry said so | ||
| Fast1075 |
Black is not faster...my Blast was black...Jezebel is WAAAAAAYYYYY faster cause she is red  | ||
| 46champ |
God I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who got into Harleys when I was a kid because of their racing program. How the mighty have fallen. |
