| Author | Message | ||
     Jmartz |
JQ do you have email? I wanna talk to yah. You can shoot a message to mine. | ||
| Dave |
"...level of penetration and acceptance...." Damn...time to move this to the NC17 area?  DAve | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool! Just got my title for the Cyclone from my credit union. The loan is paid off and it is really mine now. If I could go back now and talk to myself when I first saw the add for that bike in cycletrader, what would I say? 1) You would not believe how many problems you are going to have with that bike. 2) Go buy it! Hurry! Hurry! Leave work now and go straight over to get it, it's a steal! You will love it! 3) Don't let the previous owner park it on an incline in the wind before loading it on the truck for the trip home  I am STILL so glad I did it. For the price range I could afford, I was looking at a new SV-650, or the barely used Cyclone (a 2000 model with 2500 miles on it and I was buying in Feb of 2001). $5200 for the Cyclone, $5500 (at that time) for a new SV-650, no used SV's to be found. Don't get me wrong, the SV is a great bike, I have ridden several and recommend them to people on a regular basis. But had I bought one then, I am very sure it would be for sale by now. They just don't stir my soul and move both my body and my spirit like this Cyclone does. $5200 for a Cyclone in good shape has been the best money I ever spent. I can hardly wait for 5 years to pass so I can get an XB9S for about that same price and park it beside the Cyclone. Bill "who was made fun of last week by an employee at a burger king for sitting and staring out the window at his M2 while he was eating his nuggets" | ||
| Blake |
Bomber, That's a heart breaking report. Please pass on my condolences. To you question... Could a gust of wind cause a bike already leaned over hard to exceed its safe lean angle and lose control? Yes it is possible. Could that be due to solid wheels. No. The center of pressure of the wheels is so low as to pretty much render insignificant any lateral aerodynamic drag, plus when leaned over, the wheels present an angles surface to the wind, greatly diminishing the ability of the wind to exert any meaningful aerodynamic forces transverse to the motorcycle. Of much more significance is the area presented to a lateral wind by the rider's upper body and the upper portions (seat, tank, bags, fairing/windshield) of the motorcycle. The worst case wind induced drag on the approximately 3 square feet of a solid front wheel/tire assembly for a 25 mph cross wind would be somewhere around 7 LBs. If the axle is 12"=1' above the pavement (24" tire diameter) the associated tipping moment would be 7 LBs x 1 FT = 7 FT*LBs; not much of a tipping moment in relation to the massive inertia of the bike and rider combined. And as mentioned above, if leaned over at 45o the wind force and moment would be reduced significantly. Again, please pass on our condolences. All, Let's make this man's, this fellow motorcycle enthusiast's, death and those of others we know have some meaning. If you ride helmetless, please stop riding or start wearing a helmet! If you know someone who rides helmetless, tell them about Bomber's friend's brother-in-law; tell them about all the other such unfortunate casualties of riding helmetless; show them the picture on the first page of the "Why we should wear protective gear" topic on the Quick Board. | ||
| Aesquire |
Bicycle experience tells me that solid wheels suck in the wind. It is NOT the side area, the wheel forms an airfoil that generates substantial "lift" in the downwind direction. (yeah, I know, massivly oversimplified there) The faster the bike, the more lift. That said, from the description, lack of experience, more than solid wheels, was the issue. An unexpected steering input, and the machine got ahead of the rider. It's a shame, and you have my sympathy. Hasselhoff's accident was probably the same thing, lack of experience, lapse of attention, oops. I saw Gary Busey (on TV) after his crash, "helmet laws suck!" A few years later, his 'tude had changed "I had brain damage!! You have to be nuts not to wear a helmet! Months of physical therapy..." "Never listen to a guy with brain damage! I said that s@#$ while they were wheeling me out of an ambulance." | ||
| Josh |
>Bicycle experience tells me that solid wheels suck in the wind But the wheels are larger (taller) and the bike weighs 1/10 as much (or less) than a FatBoy. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, I have to agree with the helmet comment, but partially disagree with the physics. It's not a flat plate drag problem, it's a lift vector problem. That said, The lever arm is ahead of the axle, 3 square feet, 25-40 mph airflow, 30-60 lbs side force. It would not be a "tipping" action, but a skidding steering input. Trying to pull the wheel out from under the center of gravity. I might be wrong here, but this situation on a bicycle (higher relative c.g.) low sides you with respect to the wind, not high side. | ||
| Aesquire |
Josh, thats right, My Stowe weighs 19 lbs or so, and I have not heard that Fatboys are "killer bikes", but the forces involved are still there, just less in proportion. | ||
| Dynarider |
I dont think the solid wheels have squat to do with it. The softail customs have solid rears & there are hundreds of thousands of them on the road with no reports of "killer bikes". Wind is a weird & sometimes nasty beast. Wind is what contributed to my little get off back in Oct. Coming around a curve at 50mph, bike leaned over slightly, wife & a tailbag on the bike, good sized windshield. Was extremely windy that day & as luck would have it a strong gust was enough to upset my line going thru the curve & forced the front wheel into some road sealer & thats all she wrote. Was the wind the cause of my accident? NO, but it was a contributing factor, curve, leaned over, windshield, wind, road sealer, etc. BTW, I have wire wheels on my bike so no "sail" effect there. | ||
| Bomber |
Blake/Aesquire . . . . thanks for the physics, gents . . . . once again, I learned sumpin (which is why I come here, mostly {smile}) . . . I agree that lack of experience palyed a much larger role than that of the wheels (regardless of their role) . . . . also, it reminds me of a saying a boss used to have . . . . . .there's two guys on the job 10 years . . . . one of them has 10 years of experience . . . one has 1 year, repeated 10 times . . . . .. . . keep learning, is the moral here, I think and thanks for the good wishes . . . .I'll be sure to pass them along . . . . . | ||
| Madduck |
Bomber, I would bet that the rider in the accident high-sided after his floorboard hit hard in a corner. I sold a softtail custom for that very reason. If you could look at the bikes floorboards you should see serious wear to the outside rear of the floorboard. Without the willpower to just let the board grind, so as to not upset your cornering line, the beginner will straighten up and high side. Those boards do not fold up much at all. The long wheelbase of the bike also contributes as you go over slight rise or a bump the wheels will be on either side of the rise which means the boards is significantly lower to the ground. Also happens to people putting floorboards on goldwings and BMW lt's. Take care. Paul | ||
| Carlost |
Boy I haven't posted here in ages. How's everybody? I even forgot my password. Anyways...I'm here 'cause I'm promoting our MITM (Meet In The Middle) Mini-Rally going on from July 13th though July 18th. This year it looks like we may be staying at Warm Springs VA near some great WV and VA roads. We have a nice group put together and are looking for a few good riders. Please see my thread under the Mid-Atlantic Storm Fronts or email me at cdtres@mindspring.com | ||
| Knickers |
Boese, re: Monkeys riding footballs. While not quite at your stature, I'm close at 6'7" 37" inseam. One suggestion is to try an S3, the pegs are an inch or so lower than the X1, and with the fairing and instruments out front you really get the feel of being on a bigger bike. Other than that my only suggestion is to try BMW's. The adjustable seats can make a world of difference, their handling is just a little ponderous imo compared to Buells Kurt | ||
| Blake |
Los, Post a topic on the Storm Fronts page? Nice to see you on BadWeB for a change. Boese, Expanding on what I said earlier and on what Kurt says above... it is a fairly easy job to mount an S3 fairing on your X1. Check out Neal's (Ccryder) red stripe X3...  Aesquire, I don't see how you are getting your numbers. Please explain. Stagnation pressure for a 25 mph wind is only 1.6 PSF (252/391=1.6 PSF). Multiply that by 3 sq feet and you have... 4.8 LB. So your coefficient of lift would be 30LB/4.8LB=6.25. I know I'm greatly simplifying the situation, but that gives a good idea of the possible magnitudes with which we are dealing. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, Going from old glider #'s. 1 psf @ 10 mph, 10 psf @ 25 mph, lifting airfoil. a 180 sq ft wing can lift 270+ lbs @ 19 mph (just over stall for a second generation hang glider) I'm a large guy, 220-240 lbs, and in a 25 mph wind the 180 sq ft glider can pull near a ton horizontal if you let the nose get high while ground handling. I could be off on the #s, but I'm within an order of magnitude. (dont make me haul out Theory of Wing Sections, please, it's in a box somewhere) It's not a straight drag situation, the lift from a disk wheel pulls in front of the axle, in a forward + downwind direction. Unintended counter steer. Most bike race organizations ban front disk wheels, but some allow rear disks. Imagine whole packs of racers falling into the wind as they clear an obstacle in high winds. The best non- disk aero wheels look like Buell wheels, with 3 spoke carbon foils. Most racers now run aero rims with less than 28 bladed thin spokes. When I went to a 32 spoke aero rim from a 36 spoke wheel, my hybrid bike got faster than my austrian racer. (Austro-Daimler) Neal's is a NICE Lightning Bolt! | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Fair enough, let's give it a shot: Buell is doing great, but I think they could do even better by: 1. Getting rid of some dead wood, ie, only have dealers that "want" Buell. 2. Acknowledge your history by putting back pre XB bike info on your website, including parts books and every service bulletin and recall. 3. Get some more "marketing" money out of Willie G to hire a TV production crew to film the FUSA events and submit highlight/race packages for use on ESPN's Motoworld and Speedvision's Bike Week. Or go back to CBS and televise the the whole event like they did for Pocono a few years back. 5. Take that same crew to all the National Battletrax events and produce highlight/event coverage for use on ESPN/ESPN2 or Speedvision. 6. Sponsor somebody to ride a Buell in the XSBA stunt series. Get TV coverage for that too. 7. Go visit Greg's Garage on Two Wheel Tuesday on Speedvision, everybody else has been there already, including HD this week. Have Mike Ciccotto, Eric Wood, Bryan Bemisderfer, Jeff Johnson and the rest of the Buell FUSA racers there to talk about the FUSA Sportbike/Thunderbike classes and their teams. Feature Mike's or Eric's XB13RR. 8. Build 25-50 "race only" XB13RR's with standard chain conversions, big bore kits, programmable ecm's, fairings, ram air, the works. This will make it easier for the dealer teams to hit the ground running with a new Firebolt and allow all the S1 and X1 based race bikes that dominated the Thunderbike grid at Daytona this year to be retired, raced elsewhere or returned to the street. 9. Somehow convice HD to re-label the HD dirt track team as a Buell team since they use Blast engines anyway. Or at least call it the Harley-Davidson/Buell Factory Dirt Track team, and let Rich King wear HD colored leathers and Jennifer Snyder ride in Buell colored leathers. 10. Offer discounted FUSA Dirt track/Roadrace and AMA dirt track ticket deals for HOG/BRAG/ATC members to get Buell fans to the track. What can everybody else come up with? | ||
| Jim_Sb |
I'm with Jose on the non-XB Buells. I feel orphaned in terms of the extremely limited amount of items available for my S2. Yet I still buy what I can from the lads - just trying to help out with my $$$. But if they don't offer much I guess I won't be buying much, now will I? As for the Dealers, as Buell continues to expand their product line and market share, more dealers hopefully will see the benefits of supporting the product. My local HD/Buell dealer has undergone an ownership change. The good news is now they support Buells, stock them and sell them along with a smattering of Buell accessory items. The bad news is they've changed some policies that the previous owner had (re discounts for HOG/BRAG members) that essentially have me paying full retail for anything. Ouch. | ||
| Ray_Maines |
"Buell is doing great, but I think they could do even better by . . ." How about building a sub $10K bike that puts out about 100 RWHP and is rock solid reliable. Perception is a wonderful thing and all, but the basic product is what really matters. | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, Just a nit but, other than the VR1000, HD hasn't made a production bike that could lean 45 degrees without seriously dragging hard parts in a couple of decades. Greg | ||
| Bartimus |
The helmet issue reminds me of those folks who are against war and want to force their beliefs on everyone. While I do wear a helmet, I remember that this IS america, where we are FREE to do as we please. (depending what state we live in) If someone chooses to ride without a helmet and splat themselves, that is THEIR choice. I remind someone once and leave it at that, to keep harping about it just makes them want to do it more. The helmet issue is a dead horse, let those who ride decide... (their own fate) | ||
| Aesquire |
Helmets... What do you call a 19 year old SoCal squid with a 100 hp bike? potential organ donor. ( race leathers, no helmet) What do you call a 19 year old NY squid with a 100 hp bike? potential skin graft recipient. (color matched full face helmet, tanktop, shorts, sandles) That said, Helmet laws defy evolution. I'm against them on principal, but own at least one lid each for: motorcycle, bicycle, hang glider, SCA armored full contact martial arts. My mother thinks I do entirely too many things that need a helmet. She's felt that way for a long long time.  All of the above explanations for a crash make more sense than wind alone, most( MY ) crashes are a wrong panic reaction to unexpected stuff. | ||
| Rick_A |
I once went down a slushy road with a big crosswind that two or three cars had already been blown off of. I had to do more than lean. I rode 'er down sideways at around 40 mph. Still...I feel (under all but the worst conditions) the wind won't crash anyone...your reaction to it may do otherwise, however. | ||
| Blake |
Aesquire, Are you saying that the aerodynamic properties of a motorcycle's disk-wheel/tire assembly resemble that of a glider's airfoil?  A glider's wings are highly optimized super efficient airfoils. I think you've made a HUGE leap from wheel and wind to glider wing and lift. | ||
| Aesquire |
True, a H-D disc wheel has a lot of drag, but you still get a low pressure area on the downwind side. It wouldn't be enough to matter, but the force is in front of the axle. I could be off here though, I admit. I am used to lenticular aero bike wheels, which ARE good airfoils. With a bladed wheel like a buell, the force is evenly distributed over the circle. I'll need to test ride a Hog to see if there is a noticable force vs. wind pressure on the rider. Any experience out there? does a crosswind (from the left, say) tug your bars to the right? The bike should try to steer right, making it lean left. | ||
| Court |
Damn you Jose'... Starting my weekend by making me agree with you. Buell is doing fabulous. The product is shwoing "world class" characteristics. The next big step, and this required the product be a predecessor event, is the culture. Huge challenges and your comments about the website and heritage are right on the mark. I have it in my minds eye and the phone call from Austalia last night confirmed that the pent up demand is there. Well done on your list. I'm not the racing fanatic you are, but all the points are valid and well made. Blake, were you not, in the recent past, the Chief Engineer Dude sent to some high terrain in Japan or some far flung place to do the aerodynamic engineering for some mega satellite dishes? Gorgeous in NYC . . . I'm outta here! Court | ||
| Tbolt834 |
Jose, Many corporations (and that is foremost what H-D is) struggle with brand recognition after a take-over or buyout (in Buell's case). This is precisely why you don't see the many of the items you mentioned above. It also requires a whole lot of money that a profitable corporation risks spending and therefore reduces profitability, but may get much in return. At least Buell's colors aren't orange and black yet!!!!! I would expect that slowly (as in how H-D does everything) some of the things you mentioned will happen. Dave | ||
| Glitch |
The only reason I support the helmet law is because I don't want to be left with the medical bills of the person that didn't kill themselves. If they're not smart enough to wear a helmet, they're most likely not smart enough to have good coverage in case of a brain injury that only incompacitates. With that happening we pay for this person's recovery through higher taxes, insurance, medical, and anything else that comes along because they didn't wear a helmet and were only seriously injured. | ||
| Chucks1w |
Can someone tell me what I need and the level of difficulty in converting to the new style swingarm from 99 M2 onto my 98 S1W. Thanks. | ||
| Daves |
Glitch, There are a lot more people out there that are a drain on "our" money than a few unhelmeted motorcycle riders. I agree with freedom of choice myself. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Waterloo Ia dave@iowaharley.com | ||
| Glitch |
"There are a lot more people out there that are a drain on "our" money ..." Yeah yer right... I also believe in freedom of choice. And I choose to support helmet laws. |
