| Author | Message | ||
     Andy47 |
Have you guys seen this? http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-industry/ buell-linked-to-takeover-bid/8513.html | ||
| Goldrush |
That is awesome!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Trojan |
Great as that would be, I have to agree with the comment posted about the article on Visordown. It is pretty pointless to meet with Erik Buell about saving the company, as Erik Buell doesn't own it - Harley Davidson does. Unless they make serious attempts to meet with the board of H-D in order to buy out the remains of Buell then I can't see anything coming from this. H-D have already pretty much shown their hand by saying that they value the Buell name as almost worthless without the production plants, and they are not going to sell those because they belong to H-D, so it seems as they are not very interested in selling just the name. | ||
| Madduck |
The investors need to make sure that Erik Buell comes with whatever assets they acquire from Harley Davidson. Without Erik Buell the assets have much less value. Erik is the key to the whole thing. Which is why Harley has probably got him under contract. Visionaries are always more valuable than the vision. | ||
| Greg_e |
Well.... More power to them, hope they can make some kind of deal with Harley. | ||
| Devil_dog |
By law, as I understand it, Harley has to support the Buells it's already built by making parts available for 7 years. That means who ever buys Buell, has to assume all that liability as well as warranties, recalls, etc. - That is no small commitment. Erik Buell and this group of investors could hammer out an agreement with HD to take that on but it's a huge liability. On top of that, they would have to re-establish a dealer network. The big question, would HD tolerate an independent Buell Corporation selling motorcycles in their dealerships? The more I look at this, the more it looks like a tangled mess. Maybe the best solution would be to get HD to reverse their decision, continue to make Buells and let dealers only order what they want. Buell would have to move to more of a "Just in Time" manufacturing process which would mean if any of us wanted a Buell, we'd have to order it. One dealer I spoke with this past Sunday still had an untitled 2006 Ulysses in their warehouse. Additionally, their showroom was FULL of Harleys as well. | ||
| Goldrush |
The jit system would definitely help reduce investment, but I don't think Harley is ok with giving someone else the use of the patents that Buell has. This seems the challenge to me. Remember nothing is impossible. | ||
| Stang37 |
You know...something similar to this happened with Steve Saleen. I don't know the ins and out, but ultimately he was bought out, yet Saleen lives as a company making Mustang's that look little like the original namesake. The current Saleen's bear little resemblance to the previous 4-5 years (great car, I got one), but Saleen honors their warranties. Mr Saleen started SMS (Saleen Motor Sports?) and their Mustang product looks strikingly like the older Saleen's that the Saleen company warranties. As I understand it, Mr Saleen did attempt to buy the company back, but to little avail. I certainly hope Erik and Co are able to avoid that path and get back to making the only road bike I'd ever ride. | ||
| Mr_keys |
Friends, the HD does not sell the Buell because everything is new in technology comes from the "laboratory Buell"; If Mr. Erick sold the patents, the HD will not ever allow the plant to keep for any money in the world! The only way out of this "trap" will be a new Buell, and I think the name "Buell" can no longer be used. I think Buell will be reborn as "EB" motorcycles. Think about: a 2011 EB9SX | ||
| Court |
The title of this thread is inaccurate. There is no "take over bid" and the "American Businessmen" in the article are the Walworth County Economic Development Committee. They are seeking to retain as many jobs as possible and are looking for ways to "re-task" Buell employees. (Message edited by court on October 20, 2009) | ||
| Court |
I'd be interested in knowing what you base your understanding on . . . there is no such obligation "by law". If you find it, I'd like to see it. Harley-Davidson has announced plans to support Buell warranties and parts. I believe them. They do this for all bikes, such as the Dyna Wide Glide, that are discontinued. It appears that many of the things stated as fact above are actually pure personal speculation. I think we need to be cautious of that. | ||
| Blake |
"pointless to meet with Erik Buell" Matt, going out of your way to spread the joy? Do you really believe that meeting with Erik Buell to talk about the possibility of saving the company is "pointless"? You don't imagine he has a wealth of knowledge and expertise that might aid any such effort? | ||
| Trojan |
No that isn't what I meant at all. The Buell name and factory is owned by H-D, not Erik, so whilst it may be useful for them to meet with Erik he is not in a position to either sell or restart the Buell brand unfortunately. Hence it would be pointless meeting with him alone. I would love to see the Buell brand saved in some way, but anyone interested in doing so needs to meet with H-D and their bean counters first. H-D have made it pretty clear that they don't want Buell and neither are they interested in selling the brand. However it is also certain that they don't even know what savings they are going to make by shuttering Buell if we believe certain interviews that have been released since the 'bad news day'. I don't think H-D have much idea how to go forward and save themselves, let alone think about what to do with Buell  Their intention appears to be to retrench into manufacturing heavyweight cruiser and tourer models only (i.e. the most expensive bikes in the ramge!) as well as a few chrome trinkets and baubles, which at a time of economic trouble seems the last thing they should be doing. I would have thought that some rather high up heads at H-D should be rolling by now. | ||
| Greg_e |
Meeting with Erik could give a certain level of insight needed for a successful negotiation. He does have certain inside information that he could give them about the difficulties that they will face. Armed with this information they may be able to make a pitch that is hard to argue and the HD board would be fools to refuse. If you go in with a complete plan on how to separate the two companies, the chances of success are better. Harley has said that the entanglement with the service and support lines is the reason they killed it instead of sold it. They will need to convince the board that they can pull this off with as little impact to all of us outcast customers, even though we would be glad at a small inconvenience if the brand continued. It's a huge project that includes getting dealer and service centers signed up, as well as plans to buy all the in stock parts from each dealer and take over the warranty. Certainly not something to rush into. I hope they can pull it off and that Harley will actually be receptive to the ideas. Some of the tech licensing may get kind of messy because I'm sure Harley has rolled some of the Buell tech bach into their machines, as there is some Harley tech in the Buells so there may need to be considerable give and take from both sides and may eventually add up to a certain percentage of every Buell sale goes back to Harley for licensing some technology. Again something that can be lived with if the deal is good, and it means no risk money flowing into Harley from said licensing so it is hard to refuse deals like this. | ||
| Dust_buster |
Buyouts can be done at many levels, Harley could retain liability for warranty and support on all product in the field and sell the factory and technology for 2010 and on production. The dealer network would need to be rebuilt in either case. | ||
| Ithaca280 |
We can only hope by some miracle that Buell will eventually continue somehow. As an ex-GM employee, I feel very bad for the people at the Buell factory who worked hard building a great product with passion. Who never had a say in poor management choices. There will never be a Harley in my garage from this poor choice. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You would be a fool to *not* meet with Erik Buell. Alone. If you would buy the Buell brand from Harley, or even talk about buying the Buell brand from Harley, without a discussion with Erik first, I'd love to sell you used car or two....  | ||
| Court |
 (Message edited by court on October 20, 2009) | ||
| Salbrechtnh |
What I have found to be true in any buyout is that anything, absolutely anything is negotiable. Liabilities can be assumed or reassigned. Assets can be taken or left. Etc. etc. I have only 1 very puzzling question. Why discontinue the brand entirely rather than sell it as they are with Agusta? | ||
| Rhun |
I can't for see a selling of rights to manufacture the XB by anyone other than Harley. I think Harley dealers would scream, and rightly so, if none Harley dealers had access to Harley parts, i.e Sportster engine which essentially the XB motor is. Harley has patents on 45 degree v-twins. very unlikely someone will acquire that. 1125 well that is different. I really think the XB as it is today is done. In reality it was a matter of time before the EPA killed it anyway. | ||
| Xb12mel |
It was written in the document posted by Court that Buell is too intertwined with HD operations to just sell it off. "...because Buell is so integrated into the Harley-Davidson business systems and distribution network. From an accounting perspective, Buell is not considered a separate and distinct operation and as a result will not be presented separately as a discontinued operation"(They answered that question in the Investors Conference Call.) MV Agusta had been left as is and as such can be easily sold as a complete unit. Not so much for our beloved Buells. (Message edited by xb12mel on October 20, 2009) | ||
| Richsm2 |
if you drop the aircooled , where is the connection? or is this management speak for I donot know or care so lets take the easy way and euthanise. Excuse me this is not a productive line either so I hope the people with the ability to produce results may be free to do so without my causing an otherwise reluctant indiviual to step forward and sign. | ||
| Transmaniacon_mc |
My thoughts are that yes harley has closed down Buell to stop any and all bleeding of money that they have lost. There losing money big time and just trying to save there own ass from being closed down. Now I will be honest and say I had never even heard of a Buell until about 4 months ago when I started to look for a off road adventure motorcycle. I was going to buy a BMW 1200 gs adventure until a friend took me to a chopper motorcycle show at a HD dealer. The first time I sat on that Ulysses XB12X then rode it I was SOLD! Now I can not understand them closing Buell as much as I hate what harley did. I think with them already owning Buell that if they have a brain in their heads at HD headquarters they should re-brand the Buell line and add it into there Harley Davidson brand name motorcycles at least with the XB12 line of bike since they use there motors and sell them at the HD shops like they do already. Make it a Harley-Davidson Ulysses 12X or Lightning 12S which would only add to harley making money on the Buell line adding at least the XB12 motor line of Buell bikes to Harley Davidson. They can write off a great big cash loss at closing down Buell then bring them back through the Harley Daividson line of motorcycles so they become Harley Davidsons new Sport line up of Harley Davidson brand line of American sport adventure line of motorcycles. Then they would be real Harley Motorcycles for loans and warranty work and a real part of Harley Davidson dealerships. Just bring the Buell line of bikes into the Harley brand and start a new line of Harleys. They would then be able to market and sell the bike if it has there harley brand name on the bikes as great a bike as the Buell really is. This makes more sense than just dropping what has already been developed and made and paid for by harley which owns all the rights to Buell. Just a thought to anyone at Harley Davidson headquarter that may be reading this website of what they can do will all that Buell stuff they are going to be storing in a wharehouse somewhere. But Harleys board of directors can not be any real motorcycle riders if they could just close Buell and take the loss the way they have just killing a great motorcycle brand. Why would you kill a brand like that and not do something with it like bring it in under the harley brand name and work them out as a new part of the real Harley Davidson motorcycle family of dealerships instead of the young bastard child they fathered with there XR motors and became a better motorcycle which they called Buell when they bought the company. Buell is Harley's bastard child that should be add into the Harley Davidson brand line of motorcycles and not just ended like this. | ||
| Slaughter |
I worked for Rutan. We were owned by Beech Aircraft/Raytheon. The CEO of Beech left to go to Wyman Gordon. Wyman Gordon company would have never been allowed to purchase Rutan's Scaled Composites from Beech so WUTTA corporation was formed as a holding company... and they "owned" Rutan/Scaled for about 90 days and then sold it to Wyman Gordon. I've even got a WUTTA corporation t-shirt in a box somewhere... oh yeah, WUTTA = "Watch Us This Time Around" | ||
| Salbrechtnh |
Ruhn, I think you are correct in that H-D would never sell the rights to manufacturer the engine to anyone. But, they could reach an agreement with a new owner to buy the basic engine from H-D, say for 5 years, and allow new-Buell to modify the engine. In 5 years a new engine would be needed anyway. This would be good for new-Buell and good for H-D. | ||
| Salbrechtnh |
XB12MEL & Court, I saw your posts about Buell being intertwined on many different levels, including distribution and this does make a sale difficult. But it also seems odd that H-D would create an "event", close Buell, and be forced to take a $120mm write down on goodwill in a year when the deduction is not beneficial. It would make more sense to attempt to sell Buell at some level to reduce the goodwill impairment. An arrangement could be structured with the new owner to use H-D engines and maybe rent the mfg facility from H-D. Many creative structures could have been used to prevent such a severe impairment charge. It just does not seem logical in a year such as 2009. H-D could have taken a part ownership in the new-Buell, avoided the impairment charge and, if they were successful, the result would be a potential positive gain and no more loss than what they would take today. The share price would have been supported as it is today by limiting the loss. They could have even transferred the warranty liability to the new-Buell which would have been a plus for H-D. I just wonder what we don't know. | ||
| Ithaca280 |
Transman, you had never heard of a Buell until 4 months ago? What remote part of the world do you live in? | ||
| Buell_freq |
Harley Davidson is closing down Buell, the only American sportbike! Show your support for Erik Buell and his team! Support Buell! http://apps.facebook.com/causes/378235/44969784?m= 7f359208 Folks please pass this around. It's important that we show our thoughts both the HD and to any potential buyer of Buell! Sorry to spam, only posted on two threads about this. Yeah, I'm pissed about this, too. | ||
| 46champ |
Ithaca this is the basic problem above all other problems. It is not Transman's fault he never heard of Buell before 4 months ago it is the town crier's fault for not getting the word out. Town crier=advertising dept | ||
| Transmaniacon_mc |
Well I had heard of Buell but I thought they were just Harley road racers and drag racers. BMW,KTM,Ducati,Suzuki I looked into buying to do adventure riding but knew nothing of Buell. I am a very old dirt bike loving ex-motocrosser off-road cross country enduro riding rider that is now into adventure riding a Buell Ulysses. I had know idea what a Buell Ulysses xb12x was until I sat on one, Satan's Hog was the first thing that came to mind after I rode it. Even after I sat on one and knew I want it I had a hard time finding things about about the bikes. That harley aftermarket companies make almost nothing for Buells. BMW 1200 gs adventure was what I was going to buy before I sat on a Ulysses. So much lighter great handling beautiful riding Ulysees is so much better than the BMW adventure. KTM,Ducati, and BMW are junk compared to Buell in performance. |
