| Author | Message | ||
     Gaesati |
Trojan, I beg to differ. I understand Stoner was taken on as the "second string" to Capirossi and his original contract was payment by result. The result was "blindingly obvious". Second string riders only become the focus if it is "blindingly obvious" they work well with what is presented to them. According to the team and Stoner they don't change much to suit him, he adapts to the bike. This may mean, but not necessarily, that Stoner is not as good a development rider as Hayden since results for Hayden have gradually improved for Hayden since early in the season when they started changing handlebars. More to the point, why are you being so negative about Stoner on a Superbike thread? | ||
| Trojan |
More to the point, why are you being so negative about Stoner on a Superbike thread? I was replying to Vagelis46 thread directly above it  This may mean, but not necessarily, that Stoner is not as good a development rider as Hayden since results for Hayden have gradually improved for Hayden since early in the season when they started changing handlebars. So being the slower rider means he is a better development rider? I hate to say it, but Nicky's development skills have not been universally admired at either Honda or Ducati over the years unfortunately. Maybe he is a better racer than development rider (there is no disgrace in that) but when he lead development of the honda it made no progress at all and in fact he was blamed for lack of prgress while Pedrosa was injured over the inter period. Likewise at Ducati, I don't think Nicky has had a development role at all with this bike. Anyway...back to WSBK | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I would like to see both Hayden and Edwards in WSBK in 2011. Great riders and great people. When Edwards visited Greece, people that met him, were absolutely impressed by his character. Edwards is a great development rider. Maybe the best in the world. That is why Yamaha still pays his salary. I think the M1 was developed by Edwards' hard work, and it took Rossi's speed to win the titles. Also the VTR SP1&2 were developed by Edwards, and it was his riding skills that won the title against Bayliss' Ducati. I hope in Portimao we watch the 2nd "battle of the century" between Spies and Haga, instead Edwards Vs Bayliss. WSBK needs Edwards to return in 2011. With the current riders, he will fight for wins and the title. Just like Bayliss did. Veterans !! | ||
| Blake |
I'm just tired of the incessant badmouthing of DMG/AMA. If anyone expects that DMG won't adjust and improve based on feedback from the prior racing season and that which is ongoing, then they haven't been paying attention. We all know the view of some that American motorcycle road racing must bow subservient to FIM/WSBK. I sure don't see it that way. I say "screw the FIM and their arrogantly titled "world championship" and their increasingly exclusionary homologation rules. In my view, any series that makes just a single token appearance in the entirety of North and South America has no right to call itself a world championship. The truth is that it was WSBK who years ago ditched the AMA when they went it alone with their spec tire rule. They apparently didn't like showing up for races in America and having their hats handed to them on the track by American wildcard riders. From that point on, AMA had no reason to maintain rules commonality. So the drift of ASBK from WSBK is all on FIM, not the AMA or DMG. To pretend that DMG is the culprit for that now is baloney. Pretending that a few differences in the tech rules is some kind of catastrophic situation that will kill the chances of American racers to run in WSBK should they so choose is nonsense. Talent rules, period. Racing 200HP class motorcycles around the track with stock fork housings is just not that different from racing 220 HP motorcycles with aftermarket forks. Any ASBK champion will show well when on a competitive ride in WSBK. The same has not been true of WSBK champions racing in ASBK. | ||
| Jaimec |
Isn't it funny how the only people satisfied with the way DMG is ruin... I mean... RUNNING the AMA series are Bad Webbers? | ||
| Trojan |
In my view, any series that makes just a single token appearance in the entirety of North and South America has no right to call itself a world championship. That is rich coming from the country that has 'world series' baseball, but don't invite the rest of the world! The truth is that it was WSBK who years ago ditched the AMA when they went it alone with their spec tire rule. They apparently didn't like showing up for races in America and having their hats handed to them on the track by American wildcard riders. Hmm, I must have missed that one  Doesn't bother the FIM to go to the UK and Japan to get their hats handed to them by Wild card riders though does it? The real reason that WSBK stopped coming to the USA was that you were not interested in watching it. In fact you were so disinterested that you let your own Superbike series die as well. Now you think that the world has done you a dis-service and should have bowed before the AMA and followed their rules? I think not. As much as you like to say otherwise Blake, DMG has managed to kill off the last vestige of interest in the AMA Superbike series, and the only way back would be for an alternative series to set up in competition to the DMG/AMA fiasco (probably run to FIM rules). The ONLY reason that you are standing behind DMG right now is because they allowed Buell to compete with some pretty suspect rule 'amendments', yet that is one of the biggest reasons that everyone else that hasn't got a Buell interest is now leaving in droves. Next year will be a critical year for the AMA as a top domestic superbike series. I hope that you are right and it all comes well in the end, but the signs are not good Racing 200HP class motorcycles around the track with stock fork housings is just not that different from racing 220 HP motorcycles with aftermarket forks. Any ASBK champion will show well when on a competitive ride in WSBK. If you really beleive that then you know a lot less than I thought you did about Superbike racing  Pretending that a few differences in the tech rules is some kind of catastrophic situation that will kill the chances of American racers to run in WSBK should they so choose is nonsense. Talent rules, period. It is not the differences in the rules that has murdered the DMG/AMA series. It is the organisers habit of changing rules mid season to suit themselves. It is the organisers 'selective' punishments of particular teams and individuals, and it is the organisers blatant disrespect for the factory teams, riders and managers and their place in the greater scheme of things. If the series has no respect then the big players won't take part. Without the big teams and big sponsors you have no money and none of the 'Talent' will want to race there as there is no chance of moving up the ladder - whether to MotoGP or WSBK. Before long the USGPRU or some other organisation will suddenly find itself as the pre-eminent road racing series in the USA, and a new era will start without DMG sticking their nose in Any ASBK champion will show well when on a competitive ride in WSBK. The same has not been true of WSBK champions racing in ASBK. Unfortunately most of the ASBK champions didn't want to risk trying their hand at WSBk though did they, so your point can't be proved. Mladin was hardly pushing to the front of the line to prove his ability against the rest of the world was he? Of the other US riders to move to WSBK in recent years only Spies has made any impact at all. What ASBK champion has been WSBK champion in recent years.......nobody since Colin Edwards (not even Ben Spies yet!). To be honest Blake, it doesn't bother me if the DMG/AMA thing falls to pieces or not It does kind of make me sad that you can ignore it tearing itself to pieces just because they are being nice to Buell (at the moment), but in the end I don't have to watch it do I | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Isn't it funny how the only people satisfied with the way DMG is ruin... I mean... RUNNING the AMA series are Bad Webbers? Bad generalization. Very bad generalization. Jamie...do you like good racing? Was the racing better in the two major classes of AMA Road Racing versus prior years? Isn't that what it's really about? OR would you rather have horrible racing, but rules and sanctioning body that you like (ie AMA racing prior to DMG.) If the the AMA show or product was bad I could certainly understand the uproar. As far as I am concerned anyone that can't see the merits of what DMG has done is simply racing ignorant. I know it's hard for many to think outside of the IL4 Japanese 600cc and 1000cc frame of mind, but it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. You all are missing some great racing--I challenge anyone to find a series that was more compelling than DSB. | ||
| Diablo1 |
I challenge anyone to find a series that was more compelling than DSB. World Superbike. Next challenge?} | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Really? Did you actually watch any DSB races? I guess not everyone enjoys seeing the top 5 or 6 all still have a chance to win at the end of the races. Perhaps too many lead changes confuse some folks?? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
World Superbike. Wrong. Compared to DSB, WSBK is freight train racing... | ||
| Jaimec |
+10, Diablo1. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Wrong. Compared to DSB, WSBK is freight train racing... I'm sure if they adopted pace cars and lots more caution flags, they could fix that freight train problem. How's the attendance at DSB vs WSBK? That ought to tell you which is more popular. I guess the fans must all be stupid for watching the wrong series.} | ||
| 46champ |
There wasn't any attendance at AMA races before DMG took over. | ||
| Gaesati |
The US is a huge country with huge wealth. Motorcycle racing in the US probably doesn't need to conform to the rest of the world's rules to have a satisfying series for the US. Similarly, the rest of the world doesn't need US input. The US rolled along quite happily in Calvin Rayborn's day racing side valve 750cc Harleys against 500 cc pushrod Triumphs whilst banning Manx Nortons and the like. I am sure they can do it again. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
How's the attendance at DSB vs WSBK? That ought to tell you which is more popular. I guess the fans must all be stupid for watching the wrong series. Ummm, citing attendance figures is meaningless when it comes to validating the quality of racing. Is Nascar better racing than AMA racing? According to your theory, it is. World Superbike and Supersport is good racing, don't get me wrong. I enjoy watching it and would attend Miller's round in a heartbeat. I plan on going next year. To clarify, the freight train comment is a reference to bikes circulating in a train formation with little or no passing. } | ||
| Court |
I've never seen a WSBK race so I can't comment. Couldn't name one rider either. Did pack up the family and go to some AMA races this year. Had a ball. Will be going to more next year. Racing is fun again. I hope WSBK is this fun . . but, like I say, I've never watched it. | ||
| Trojan |
There wasn't any attendance at AMA races before DMG took over. Attendance records for 2009 were actually down on previous years apparently. Jamie...do you like good racing? Was the racing better in the two major classes of AMA Road Racing versus prior years? Isn't that what it's really about? OR would you rather have horrible racing, but rules and sanctioning body that you like (ie AMA racing prior to DMG.) Close racing isn't always quality racing. I go to watch club racing quite a lot, and the racing is almost always closer than WSBK/MotoGP or BSB racing. However, there are very few spectators there, no money invested and most riders are on older bikes with little or no outside support. If your vision of AMA/DMG is for privateers racing out of the back of a van with 2-5 year old equipment and no investment then that is fine. If you want the glitz and glamour of top teams and top riders on state of the art race bikes then you need the manufacturers/distributors and major teams involved just because they cost a lot of money (although the manufacturers also invest a huge amount of money into domestic championships). DMG, for whatever motive, have set out to disenfranchise the manufacturers and major teams and seem intent on cutting them out of the loop completely. However, they seem to have forgotten that the factories are not only team owners, but also event sponsors and supporters of countless privateer teams. If DMG are doing this because they want close racing then they are doing it wrong. My opinion is that they are doing it to try and establish themselves as THE power brokers in US motorcycle sport, and don't really care if they upset people or ruin the sport on the way there. It will be their loss in the end when they have no industry support, as the sport needs this to survive long term. They should be negotiating with factories and teams rather than imposing rules that have neither been discussed or agreed. They should certainly not be changing or 'amending' rules to suit themselves during the season without consultations, and they should not be imposing what amount to politically motivated punishments on certain teams and individuals. The US rolled along quite happily in Calvin Rayborn's day racing side valve 750cc Harleys against 500 cc pushrod Triumphs whilst banning Manx Nortons and the like. I am sure they can do it again. That is progress? Ban imported bikes because they beat H-D? I don't think the sport would last very long at all if they did that. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Ummm, citing attendance figures is meaningless when it comes to validating the quality of racing. Is Nascar better racing than AMA racing? According to your theory, it is. You can't compare car to bike racing...two different sports. Bike racing will never be as popular as car racing. But in bike racing, most folks believe that WSBK has been the best series this year. There are only about 5 really fast riders in WSBK that are likely to win at any given race: Spies, Haga, Fabrizio, Rhea, Biaggi. Spies and Haga do most of the winning, and that's why the Championship is undecided.} | ||
| Gaesati |
"I don't think the sport would last very long if they did that..." It seems the DMG system is doing just that for Buell. But many US aficionados seem to like it and feel it gives them close racing. There is no reason that the US needs to follow any FIM model. Will racing in the rest of the world be damaged if the US goes its own way? It seems part of the problem is that outside Europe there are few countries that can sustain the cost of a full scale Superbike series. Australia used to but now Australian Superbikes are far less competitive than BSB. Consequently it has become harder and harder for Australian talent to develop enough to be noticed overseas. America may well go this way. | ||
| Doerman |
The paragraph starting with: Close racing isn't always quality racing. Is a mis-characterization of what DMG has done. They have walked with the manufacturers this year and not against them. DMG used 2009 as an adjustment year, that is true. I see that as goodness not a detriment to the sport. Some see the adjustments throughout the year as "they don't know what they are doing" approach. DMG did put a stop to some manufacturers that were using advantages gained over the years. Put the competition on a level playing field by homoligation rules. An example of this is the Yoshimura Suzuki Team that were allowed to run their 2008 bike until June. Mladin dominated the races up to this point. He had to work very hard for the wins with the 2009 bike since it did not have all the unobtainium the 2008 bike had. This provided for close racing. You say that close racing is not always desirable. I truly do not understand that comment. I seem to remember you, Matt, lauding the close racing in WSB Supersport on several occasions. I think WSB Supersport is one of the best racing you can watch because of the close racing. (Message edited by doerman on October 07, 2009) | ||
| Backcountryme |
You know, I keep hearing all the crying about DMG changing the rules mid season and all. Does anyone realize that DMG changed the weight rule in SportBike in favor of the 600's? They took weight out of the 600s and added weight to the Buell. That doesn't really sound like DMG pandering to Buell to me. As for road racing in the states, it isn't going anywhere. The US is too big a market for motorcycle manufacturers for them to not race. Ok, you can say that Honda pulled out, but they pulled out of Formula 1 too. Does that mean that Formula 1 is going down the drain too? I will not deny that WSBK is fun to watch, but why have the superbikes here run under their rules? What is the problem with having our own rules? Also, the argument that making rules so that a privateer can compete is a bad thing is just plain crazy. How is it that 4 to 5 guys running away with the show make for good racing? I am sorry, but WSBK has not had the quality of racing that Daytona SportBike has had. I am a fan of all motorcycle racing, but let’s not forget that it is the RACING that people come out for. It is a show. Hard charging young guys racing against the seasoned vets makes for good stories. DMG has done a fairly (I'm not crazy, they messed up stuff to) good job this year. Give them some credit where credit is due. Sorry if this rambles on, I have been typing in little bits between phone calls. | ||
| Trojan |
Australia used to but now Australian Superbikes are far less competitive than BSB. Consequently it has become harder and harder for Australian talent to develop enough to be noticed overseas. America may well go this way. What happens in Australia is that the top quality riders leave as soon as possible to race in Europe, as that is the only place where they can progress. Everyone from Wayne Gardner & Troy Bayliss to Casey Stoner have had to move to Europe in order to make the next step up the career ladder. Some of the commentators have actually compared the Australian situation to what they think will become of the DMG/AMA before very long. BSB will also change its engine tuning rules next year to cut costs, (there will be a 2 tier tuning system until 2011) and will run Superstock engines in full on Superbike chassis from 2011 onwards. The big difference is that BSB sat down with the manufacturers and teams to discuss the way forward rather than trying to impose a solution and a set of rules on everyone without their input. You say that close racing is not always desirable. I truly do not understand that comment. That isn't what I said or meant. What I said was that close racing isn't always quality racing. I often see very close racing for instance in the MZ250 class at my local club. Everyone is on esimilar machines and racing is invariably extremely close and entertaining. Would TV companies pay to televise it or sponsors come forward to pay for it? No they wouldn't. It maybe close but the sight of 40 blokes racing 20 year old MZ 2 strokes won't fill stadiums/tracks or attract TV audiencs, and that is where the money needs to come from to sustain a 'proper' national level superbike championsip. Contrastthis to this years BSB championship, where Leon Camier has whitewashed everybody and walked away with the series. The racing at the front has hardly been memorable simply because he has dominated so much, yet crowd attendance and viewing figures are up, not down. If people only wanted to watch close racing, regardless of who or what was competing, then there is plenty of opportunity to do that now at ASRA/CCS/USGPRU and every other club/semi national level of racing. What the majority of spectators want to see is the best riders on the best and fastest bikes fighting for the richest prizes. Without that you just have a series of side shows but no main event. (Message edited by trojan on October 07, 2009) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Superbike chassis.......It means keep the stock chassis and be able to change forks and swingarm. Superstock engine.......It means keep the engine-filterbox stock and change the exhaust and ECU So it seems that BSB will get closer to Superstock than WSBK. It sounds a good idea. But why they do not keep the stock forks and swingarm for BSB ?? Reduce the costs further ?? | ||
| Blake |
Some choose to see nothing but the negative; that is unfortunate; it's incredibly bitter sounding and horribly unfair. I agree about the "World Series". But please, I don't pretend to speak for the entirety of America. It would be nice if we could stick to discussing racing and leave the personal commentary out of it. If you think that there is such a huge difference between riding a top ASBK machine and a WSBK then make the case. Insulting me personally does little to support your point. Truth be told, there was never much difference between superstock and superbike. | ||
| Backcountryme |
+1 Blake. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
You can't compare car to bike racing...two different sports. You also can't compare attendance figures from two continents and equate it to the quality of racing. That's ludicrous. | ||
| Blake |
>>> The big difference is that BSB sat down with the manufacturers and teams to discuss the way forward rather than trying to impose a solution and a set of rules on everyone without their input. You'll be pleased to know that DMG did the very same, on multiple occasions. Question: Why not too long ago did ALL the Japanese manufacturers walk away from WSBK, and what has been the result? | ||
| Smoke |
3 sec per lap -spies sets record/ may on superstock spec bike http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?lnk=r ss&article=33509 i still like seeing the fastest riders on the best equipment competing but i also watch any mortorcycle roadracing that i can stay awake for. my son dvr's all available racing for me but i rarely see 15% of what he records due to time constraints. i should probably dump the cable and subscribe to the various live racing streams. send me those links (especially the free ones) tim | ||
| Blake |
Geoff May? Maybe Compare Spies to Spies from 2006 or Yates to Yates. Then consider the effect of tires. | ||
| Backcountryme |
Sorry smoke, but that proves nothing. You need to compare same rider on different bikes. Not to mention that in 2008 there were a lot of parts that Spies and Mladin got that no one else could get. I know this because Danny Eslick was a Suzuki rider and he couldn't get many of the same things that they had. Oh, and Danny is my cousin, so I have heard it from a good source. |
