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Court
| Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 09:50 pm: |
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Lemon laws are not "20 days". They are a state laws and vary state by state. There are a number of states that exclude motorcycles. The "20 days" is unique to North Carolina and should read "4 repair attempts or more than 20 days out of service during any 12 month period." Be mindful that the courts have held, for instance in the case of back ordered parts, that that's 20 days for the dealer, who HAS parts, to perform the work. Lemon laws can work but are rarely, at least for the customer the BEST way to go for the following reasons.
- It can take a LONG (think 1 - 2 years) time. If you have ever had a case go to Court, you'll have an idea. This isn't always the case, but you, the consumer, have no control over the pace.
- Depreciation is deducted. I've seen people "teach Harley-Davidon a lesson", successfully assert their case and get handed a check for 60% of what they paid for the bike. They still have payments to pay.
- It's an adversarial process, involves attorneys (you'll pay for your own) and is generally as fun as anything else that involves attorneys
Generally of all the avenues of resolution it is the least "consumer friendly". Canada, as you likely know, does not have "Lemon Laws" like the United States does. Canada has the Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Plan. There is not such thing as Buell Canada. Trev Deeley handles everything in in every Canadian Province and Territory. If you need information, drop me a note. Best advise I can give you is to be very wary of "internet lawyers". |
Court
| Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 09:56 pm: |
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I've said it before . . . I'll say it again . . . Buell is (and has been since 2003) one of the LEAST RECALLED motorcycles made. Here, as an example, are ALL RECALLS for the calendar year 2008. I'm not going to mess with formatting the table, buyt you get the idea. I hate to keep screwing up these perfectly fun and entertaining internet diatribes with facts . . . For fun . . . take the sum of all recalled UNITS (note that Buell Recall 08V554000 only effected 140 units) and add them up. Buying another brand it llike hitting yourself on the head with another brand of ball bat . . . the problem doesn't got away . . . Anyway . . enjoy. Motorcycle Recalls by Make and Model for 2008 Year Make Model NHTSA Campaign IDs 2008 Aprilia Scarabeo 100 09V033000 2008 Aprilia Scarabeo 200 09V035000 09V034000 2008 Aprilia Scarabeo 500 08V522000 2008 Aprilia Tuono 1000R 08V148000 2008 Big Dog K-9 07V580000 2008 Big Dog Mastiff 07V580000 2008 Big Dog Mutt 07V580000 2008 BMW F650GS 08V693000 08V692000 2008 BMW F800GS 09V088000 08V692000 2008 BMW F800S 08V241000 2008 BMW F800ST 08V241000 2008 BMW K1200GT 08V245000 08V239000 2008 BMW K1200S 08V245000 08V239000 2008 BMW R1200GS 09V319000 09V129000 08V290000 2008 BMW R1200GS Adventure 09V129000 08V290000 2008 BMW R1200R 08V290000 08V254000 2008 BMW R1200RT 09V256000 2008 Buell 1125R 09V109000 08V554000 08V267000 2008 Buell Blast 08V439000 2008 Buell XB12XT 08V538000 2008 Cam-Am Spyder Roadster 09V162000 07V561000 2008 Ducati 848 08V638000 2008 Ducati 1098 08V638000 08V253000 2008 Ducati 1098R 08V638000 2008 Ducati 1098S 08V638000 08V253000 2008 Ducati 1098 Tricolore 08V638000 08V253000 2008 Ducati Desmosedici RR 09V160000 08V563000 2008 Ducati Hypermotard 07V474000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHP 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHPE 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHR 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHRC 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHRSE4 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHT 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHTC 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHTCU 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHTCUSE3 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHTP 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLHX 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLSTSB 09V211000 2008 Harley-Davidson FLTR 08V357000 2008 Harley-Davidson FXSTSSE2 09V211000 2008 Honda CBR1000RR 09V174000 2008 Honda VT600 08V141000 2008 Honda VT750 08V141000 2008 Honda VTX1300 08V141000 2008 Jonway Sunny 09V132000 2008 Jonway YY150T-12 09V131000 2008 Jonway YY50QT-21A 09V131000 2008 Kawasaki EX250J8F 08V158000 08V115000 08V052000 2008 Kawasaki EX250J8FL 08V158000 08V115000 08V052000 2008 Kawasaki KL650E 07V486000 2008 Kawasaki KL650E8F 08V520000 2008 Kawasaki KL650E8FL 09V062000 09V059000 08V520000 2008 Kawasaki KLE650 09E015000 2008 Kawasaki KLR650 07V244000 2008 Kawasaki VN900B8F 08V114000 2008 Kawasaki VN900B8FL 08V114000 2008 Kawasaki Vulcan VN900C8F 08V473000 08V114000 2008 Kawasaki Vulcan VN900D8F 08V473000 08V114000 2008 Kawasaki VN900D8FL 08V114000 2008 Kawasaki ZG1400A8F 08V623000 2008 Kawasaki ZG1400A8FL 08V623000 2008 Kawasaki ZG1400B8F 08V623000 2008 Kawasaki ZG1400B8FL 08V623000 2008 Moto Guzzi Norge 1200 08V305000 2008 Piaggio BV500 09V188000 2008 Piaggio MP3 250RL 07V366000 2008 Piaggio X9 500 09V188000 2008 Suzuki GSX1300RK8 08V249000 2008 Suzuki SV650S 08E052000 2008 Triumph Rocket III Touring 09T004000 08V686000 08V145000 2008 Triumph Speed Triple 08V310000 08V116000 2008 Triumph Sprint ST 07V562000 2008 Triumph Sprint ST1050 08V457000 2008 Triumph Thruxton 08V624000 2008 Triumph Tiger 07V562000 2008 Victory Vision 08V446000 08V131000 07V510000 2008 Yamaha FJR1300 09V002000 |
Jpowell490
| Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 10:37 pm: |
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Yea Court, We wouldn't want you to school us anymore than necessary here...... In your first post you try to tell people they are wasting their time by pursuing a legal right in the lemon law. Furthermore ANY day in the dealer is considered a repair. You just posted above "days out of service", well guess what? a day in the shop, part or no part, is a day out of service. I think a certain individual that makes a certain tune program had to turn in his 08 due to the lemon law, that one ring a bell for you there Court? So is it any different to spend 1 or 2 years in court or 1 or 2 years sitting on your thumbs because the bike is tore up? What is the difference? At least in the end you will get SOMETHING back, like your dignity. I don't think anyone is disputing the 1125 is a great bike, when it actually runs. I still love mine, I hate the issues out of a new bike plain and simple. No current piece of machinery should be ridden with problems with the quality control and technology we have. Maybe since you are close to the source you can tell them to spend more time on the QA and less time making stupid marketing commercials like the destruction of the blast. Ironically, probably the most reliable of all the Buell's.....Smart choice. |
Zac4mac
| Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 11:36 pm: |
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Damn lot of vitriol here. I guess with the issues I've had I could be pissed too but I'm not. I'm happy with what I got and how I've been treated, sorry you're not. Really. I've had this bike almost 2 years and I still sit in the garage and stare at her. I hope someday I stumble across the video I made of her de-crating then lost... Z |
Ponti1
| Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 11:51 pm: |
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Jpowell, maybe you should consider selling your bike. Your perspective is not one that lends itself to you ever finding happiness. The 1125R issues Turn Signals Speed Sensor Instrument Cluster Oiling procedure Boiling Gas 3 or 4 different ECM maps Cam Chain tensioner Charging issues Stator Fouling plugs excessively IAC screwing up Mirrors won't stay put Have to keep a battery tendor on it still Stalling Running Hot 5th gear transmission seizing front brake line misrouted It looks to me like you've got a number of duplicates in there, as well as exaggerations. Please quantify your list with additional detail, and number of instances where each has occurred. By the way, you forgot to complain about the ergonomics, fuel economy, and longevity of the tires. |
Carbonbigfoot
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 01:48 am: |
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By the way, you forgot to complain about the ergonomics, fuel economy, and longevity of the tires. Haahahaha, gigglesnort AAAAAAAAAahahhhhhhrrrggggg! G0dD@mn!+ ouch! You just made me cough single malt up my sinuses! It Buuuurrrrrnnnnnssss!!! But that was funny! R |
Boogiman1981
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 03:02 am: |
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must be nice last time i asked about a lemon law applying to motorcycles in florida i was told does not apply at all to bike trikes only 4 wheel+ standard automobiles. |
Thedavyboy
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 06:50 am: |
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Paulpcr1125 I'm being told my stator will not be here till the middle of next month ! Maybe !!! I can't even imagine a manufacture could build vehicles without parts to repair bikes when they break . I all ready spoke to a lemon law attorney and in fact in New Jersey it's 20 days and it does not need to be consecutive . Not that I'm going that route just yet. But I'm not going to wait 6 weeks either . I'm going to send you a PM and let you what I found out about lemon law . |
Court
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 09:18 am: |
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Correct - Florida does NOT include motorcycles. Also correct about New Jersey. 3 trips of 20 days for the SAME issue. Here's a reasonably good summary. http://autopedia.com/html/HotLinks_Lemon2.html For some fun . . have your attorney first spend and hour and provide you copies of 2 successful cases from the last year. The idea of Lemon Laws is cool . . . the execution sucks from the consumers point of view. It's just my personal opinion that it would not be the first avenue I'd take. But then I'm a construction guy and my day is filled with dealing with problems and I long ago dismissed running around ranting and raving about suing as an effective means of resolving things. |
Rfischer
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 09:43 am: |
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As a former practising litigation lawyer, I can tell you without qualification that suing, or any form of adversarial action, is the LAST thing you want to do, or even consider. Merely threatening to sue, is pointless, will cost money and achieve nothing. A good lawyer will listen to your story, tell you what the risk/reward matrix is, advise that the only instructions he/she will accept is to commence an action [not "write a letter" or other bullying/extortionist tactic], and ask for a substantial retainer to cover the periodic bills to come. Regardless of the outcome, you will "lose" in a monetary and/or emotional sense so it is a last-resort strategy to be used only when there is no other option, including simply walking away from the issue and taking your lumps. But, hey! - against all good advice, if you think a lemon-law complaint will solve your perceived problems, God Bless..... |
Fdl3
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 09:58 am: |
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How do dealers feel about obtaining parts off a showroom bike? |
Court
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 10:00 am: |
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quote:Merely threatening to sue, is pointless, will cost money and achieve nothing.
That . . . Counselor . . is an "inaccurate statement". In the world of law and big corporations once a person uses the word "sue" all things change. For example, if you are working with Buell Customer Service and they are within about 2 minutes of giving you a new bike (which they, to their credit, are pretty free and loose doing) and someone uses the word "sue", "attorney" or any form of the "if you don't, I'll sue" logic . . all bets are IMMEDIATELY off. At that point they can no longer talk to you . . quite frankly it changes the entire complexion of events and your case gets transferred to another group. Contractors are the world’s worst for suing over stupid things. As a group they tend to have acquired some wealth but have never lost their ego and "I'll show you attitude". I see contractors who will happily spend $1,000,000 to win a $100,000 lawsuit. I went after J. M. Fahey years ago and learned my lesson. I compared it to drag racing. As a kid I hopped up my Oldsmobile 4-4-2, spend countless dollars, took it to Manhattan (KS) Raceway Park and WON. Someone came over, congratulated me and handed me a check for $50??? I beat Fahey . . and boy did I teach them a lesson. It cost me about the price of a moderately sized home . . and I walked away with about $8,000 for a delay on the University of Kansas Medical Center on Rainbow Blvd in KCKS. It took me a while to learn. I, on the side, do Litigation Support and research for a law firm here in NYC. The Attorney I work with has a billing rate of $660 an hour and her boss bills at $920 an hour. Whenever I think about suing anyone I ask myself how bad I want to have the two of them spending a "couple days taking a look at it". I'm not saying there isn't a time for litigation. . one of my best friends is NYC's premier litigator, she's on the front page of the NY Times daily, but I wouldn't take her job for all the tea in China. The good ones are REALLY (as you know) good. I'll be, staring in January 2010, teaching Construction Claims and Dispute Resolution at Columbia University in the SEAS (School of Engineering and Applied Sciences) and, I am certain, will get to start each semester attempting to moderate a group of 20 year olds . . full of piss and vinegar and convincing them that suing . . just perhaps . . ain't the best way to resolve a problem. I might be able to convince them. My words would be wasted on an internet chat room. So . . likely . . are yours. As has been pointed out . . no one here needs nor wants the lesson. |
Thedavyboy
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 10:07 am: |
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Will I'm in the same situation and suing is the last option . I'm a return customer. I had an XB12 and it was IMO one of the best all around bike made . That's why I bought the CR . So I plan on giving Buell a chance to correct the problem . But just like Buell the paying consumer should know what his options are. And going lemon law is an option when an unreasonable amount of time is taken to correct a problem . And NJ has strict lemon law . |
Thedavyboy
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 10:10 am: |
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Court this was directed at Rfischer not you ..... |
Court
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 10:50 am: |
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>>>And NJ has strict lemon law . That is accurate. The second strictest in the nation.
quote:Title 56:12-29 - 56:12-49 56:12-29. Findings, intentions The Legislature finds that the purchase of a new motor vehicle is a major, high cost consumer transaction and the inability to correct defects in these vehicles creates a major hardship and an unacceptable economic burden on the consumer. It is the intent of this act to require the manufacturer of a new motor vehicle to correct defects originally covered under the manufacturer's warranty which are identified and reported within a specified period. It is the further intent of this act to provide procedures to expeditiously resolve disputes between a consumer and a manufacturer when defects in a new motor vehicle are not corrected within a reasonable time, and to provide to award specific remedies where the uncorrected defect substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the new motor vehicle. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 1. 56:12-30. Definitions 2. As used in this act: "Consumer" means a buyer or lessee, other than for purposes of resale or sublease, of a motor vehicle; a person to whom a motor vehicle is transferred during the duration of a warranty applicable to the motor vehicle; or any other person entitled by the terms of the warranty to enforce the obligations of the warranty. "Dealer" means a person who is actively engaged in the business of buying, selling or exchanging motor vehicles at retail and who has an established place of business. "Director" means the Director of the Division of Consumer Affairs in the Department of Law and Public Safety, or his designee. "Division" means the Division of Consumer Affairs in the Department of Law and Public Safety. "Lease agreement" means a contract or other written agreement in the form of a lease for the use of a motor vehicle by a person for a period of time exceeding 60 days, whether or not the lessee has the option to purchase or otherwise become the owner of the motor vehicle at the expiration of the lease. "Lessee" means a person who leases a motor vehicle pursuant to a lease agreement. "Lessor" means a person who holds title to a motor vehicle leased to a lessee under a lease agreement or who holds the lessor's rights under such an agreement. "Lien" means a security interest in a motor vehicle. "Lienholder" means a person with a security interest in a motor vehicle pursuant to a lien. "Manufacturer" means a person engaged in the business of manufacturing, assembling or distributing motor vehicles, who will, under normal business conditions during the year, manufacture, assemble or distribute to dealers at least 10 new motor vehicles. "Manufacturer's informal dispute settlement procedure" means an arbitration process or procedure by which the manufacturer attempts to resolve disputes with consumers regarding motor vehicle nonconformities and repairs that arise during the vehicle's warranty period. "Manufacturer's warranty" or "warranty" means any warranty, whether express or implied of the manufacturer, of a new motor vehicle of its condition and fitness for use, including any terms or conditions precedent to the enforcement of obligations under the warranty. "Motor vehicle" means a passenger automobile or motorcycle as defined in R.S.39:1-1 which is purchased or leased in the State of New Jersey or which is registered by the Division of Motor Vehicles in the Department of Law and Public Safety, except the living facilities of motor homes. "Nonconformity" means a defect or condition which substantially impairs the use, value or safety of a motor vehicle. "Reasonable allowance for vehicle use" means the mileage at the time the consumer first presents the motor vehicle to the dealer or manufacturer for correction of a nonconformity times the purchase price, or the lease price if applicable, of the vehicle, divided by one hundred thousand miles. L.1988,c.123,s.2; amended 1991,c.130; 1993,c.21,s.3. 56:12-31. Report of nonconformity; repairs If a consumer reports a nonconformity in a motor vehicle to the manufacturer or its dealer during the first 18,000 miles of operation or during the period of two years following the date of original delivery to a consumer, whichever is earlier, the manufacturer shall make, or arrange with its dealer to make, within a reasonable time, all repairs necessary to correct the nonconformity. Such repairs if made after the first 12,000 miles of operation or after the period of one year following the date of original delivery to the consumer, whichever is earlier, shall be paid for by the consumer, unless otherwise covered by a manufacturer's warranty, and shall be recoverable as a cost under section 14 of this act. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 3. 56:12-32. Refunds If, during the period specified in section 3 of this act, the manufacturer or its dealer is unable to repair or correct a nonconformity within a reasonable time, the manufacturer shall accept return of the motor vehicle from the consumer. The manufacturer shall provide the consumer with a full refund of the purchase price of the original motor vehicle including any stated credit or allowance for the consumer's used motor vehicle, the cost of any options or other modifications arranged, installed, or made by the manufacturer or its dealer within 30 days after the date of original delivery, and any other charges or fees including, but not limited to, sales tax, license and registration fees, finance charges, reimbursement for towing and reimbursement for actual expenses incurred by the consumer for the rental of a motor vehicle equivalent to the consumer's motor vehicle and limited to the period during which the consumer's motor vehicle was out of service due to a nonconformity, less a reasonable allowance for vehicle use. Nothing herein shall be construed to preclude a manufacturer from making an offer to replace the vehicle in lieu of a refund; except that the consumer may, in any case, reject a manufacturer's offer of replacement and demand a refund. Refunds shall be made to the consumer and lienholder, if any, as their interests appear on the records of ownership maintained by the Director of the Division of Motor Vehicles. In the event that the consumer accepts an offer to replace the motor vehicle in lieu of a refund, it shall be the manufacturer's responsibility to insure that any lien on the returned motor vehicle is transferred to the replacement vehicle. A consumer who leases a new motor vehicle shall have the same remedies against a manufacturer under this section as a consumer who purchases a new motor vehicle. If it is determined that the lessee is entitled to a refund pursuant to subsection a. of this section, the consumer shall return the leased vehicle to the lessor or manufacturer and the consumer's lease agreement with the motor vehicle lessor shall be terminated and no penalty for early termination shall be assessed. The manufacturer shall provide the consumer with a full refund of the amount actually paid by the consumer under the lease agreement, including any additional charges as set forth in subsection a. of this section if actually paid by the consumer, less a reasonable allowance for vehicle use. The manufacturer shall provide the motor vehicle lessor with a full refund of the vehicle's original purchase price plus any unrecovered interest expense, less the amount actually paid by the consumer under the agreement. Refunds shall be made to the lessor and lienholder, if any, as their interests appear on the records of ownership maintained by the Director of the Division of Motor Vehicles. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 4. 56:12-33. Presumption of inability to correct noncomformity; written notification It is presumed that a manufacturer or its dealer is unable to repair or correct a nonconformity within a reasonable time if, within the first 18,000 miles of operation or during the period of two years following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to a consumer, whichever is the earlier date: Substantially the same nonconformity has been subject to repair three or more times by the manufacturer or its dealer and the nonconformity continues to exist; or The motor vehicle is out of service by reason of repair for one or more nonconformities for a cumulative total of 20 or more calendar days sin ce the original delivery of the motor vehicle and a nonconformity continues to exist. The presumption contained in subsection a. of this section shall apply against a manufacturer only if the manufacturer has received written notification, by or on behalf of the consumer, by certified mail return receipt requested, of a potential claim pursuant to the provisions of this act and has had one opportunity to repair or correct the defect or condition within 10 calendar days following receipt of the notification. Notification by the consumer shall take place any time after the motor vehicle has had substantially the same nonconformity subject to repair two or more times or has been out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 20 or more calendar days. The two-year term and the 20-day period specified in this section shall be extended by any period of time during which repair services are not available to the consumer because of a war, invasion or strike, or a fire, flood, or other natural disaster. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 5. 56:12-34. Statements to consumers At the time of purchase in the State of New Jersey, the manufacturer through its dealer, or at the time of lease in the State of New Jersey, the lessor, shall provide directly to the consumer the following written statement on a separate piece of paper, in 10-point bold-face type: "IMPORTANT: IF THIS VEHICLE IS DEFECTIVE, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED UNDER NEW JERSEY LAW TO A REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE OR YOUR LEASE PAYMENTS. FOR COMPLETE INFORMATION REGARDING YOUR RIGHTS AND REMEDIES UNDER THE RELEVANT LAW, CONTACT THE NEW JERSEY DEPARTMENT OF LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY, DIVISION OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS." Each time a consumer's motor vehicle is returned from being examined or repaired during the period specified in section 3 of this act, the manufacturer through its dealer shall provide to the consumer an itemized, legible statement of repair which indicates any diagnosis made and all work performed on the vehicle and provides information including, but not limited to, the following: a general description of the problem reported by the consumer or an identification of the problem reported by the consumer or an identification of the defect or condition; the amount charged for parts and the amount charged for labor, if paid for by the consumer; the date and the odometer reading when the vehicle was submitted for repair; and the date and odometer reading when the vehicle was made available to the consumer. Failure to comply with the provisions of this section constitutes an unlawful practice pursuant to section 2 of P.L. 1960, c. 39 (C. 56:8-2). L. 1988, c. 123, s. 6. 56:12-35. Sale, leasing of returned motor vehicle 7. If a motor vehicle is returned to the manufacturer under the provisions of this act or a similar statute of another state or as the result of a legal action or an informal dispute settlement procedure, it shall not be resold or re-leased in New Jersey unless: The manufacturer provides to the dealer or lessor and the dealer or lessor provides to the consumer the following written statement on a separate piece of paper, in 10-point bold-face type: "IMPORTANT: THIS VEHICLE WAS RETURNED TO THE MANUFACTURER BECAUSE IT DID NOT CONFORM TO THE MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY AND THE NONCONFORMITY WAS NOT CORRECTED WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME AS PROVIDED BY LAW;" The dealer or lessor obtains from the consumer a signed receipt certifying, in a conspicuous and understandable manner, that the written statement required under this subsection has been provided. The director shall prescribe the form of the receipt. The dealer or lessor may fulfill his obligation to obtain a signed receipt under this paragraph by making such a notation, in a conspicuous and understandable manner, on the vehicle buyer order form accompanying the sale or lease of that vehicle; and The dealer or lessor, in accordance with the provisions of section 1 of P.L.1993, c.21 (C.39:10-9.3), notifies the Director of the Division of Motor Vehicles in the Department of Law and Public Safety of the sale or transfer of ownership of the motor vehicle. Nothing in this section shall be construed as imposing an obligation on a dealer or lessor to determine whether a manufacturer is in compliance with the terms of this section nor shall it be construed as imposing liability on a dealer or lessor for the failure of a manufacturer to comply with the terms of this section. Failure to comply with the provisions of this section constitutes an unlawful practice pursuant to section 2 of P.L.1960, c.39 (C.56:8-2). L.1988,c.123,s.7; amended 1993,c.21,s.2. 56:12-36. Informal dispute settlement procedure If a manufacturer has established, or participates in, an informal dispute settlement procedure pursuant to section 110 of Pub. L. 93-637 (15 U.S.C. s.2310) and the rules promulgated thereunder, or the requirements of this section, a consumer may submit a dispute regarding motor vehicle nonconformities to the dispute settlement body provided by that procedure but a consumer shall not be required to first participate in the informal dispute settlement procedure before participating in the division's summary hearing procedure under this act. If a consumer chooses to use a manufacturer's informal dispute settlement procedure established pursuant to this section, the findings and decisions of the dispute settlement body shall state in writing whether the consumer is entitled to a refund under the presumptions and criteria set out in this act and the findings and decisions shall be admissible against the consumer and the manufacturer in any legal action. If the dispute settlement body determines that a consumer is entitled to relief under this act, the consumer shall be entitled to a refund as authorized by section 4 of this act. In any informal dispute settlement procedure established pursuant to this section: Participating arbitrators shall be trained in arbitration and familiar with the provisions of this act. Documents shall not be submitted to any dispute settlement body unless the documents have been provided to each of the parties in the dispute at least seven days prior to commencement of the dispute settlement hearing. The parties shall be given the opportunity to comment on the documents in writing or with oral presentation. No party shall participate in the informal dispute settlement procedure unless all other parties are also present and given an opportunity to be heard, or unless the other parties consent to proceeding without their presence and participation. A consumer shall be given an adequate opportunity to contest a manufacturer's assertion that a nonconformity falls within intended specifications for the vehicle by having the basis of the manufacturer's claim appraised by a technical expert selected and paid for by the consumer prior to the manufacturer's informal dispute settlement procedure. If the dispute settlement body rules in favor of the consumer, his costs and reasonable attorney's fees shall also be awarded. A dispute shall not be heard if there has been a recent attempt by the manufacturer to repair a consumer's vehicle, but no response has yet been received by the dispute settlement body from the consumer as to whether the repairs were successfully completed. This provision shall not prejudice a consumer's right under this section. The manufacturer shall provide, and the dispute settlement body shall consider, any relevant technical service bulletins which have been issued by the manufacturer regarding motor vehicles of the same make and model as the vehicle that is the subject of the dispute. Any manufacturer who establishes, or participates in, an informal dispute settlement procedure, whether it meets the requirements of this section or not, shall maintain, and forward to the director at six month intervals, the following records: The number of purchase price and lease price refunds requested, the number awarded by the dispute settlement body, the amount of each award and the number of awards satisfied in a timely manner; The number of awards in which additional repairs or a warranty extension was the most prominent remedy, the amount or value of each award, and the number of awards satisfied in a timely manner; The number and total dollar amount of awards in which some form of reimbursement for expenses or compensation for losses was the most prominent remedy, the amount or value of each award and the number of awards satisfied in a timely manner; and The average number of days from the date of a consumer's initial request to use the manufacturer's informal dispute settlement procedure until the date of the decision and the average number of days from the date of the decision to the date on which performance of the award was satisfied. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 8. 56:12-37. Dispute resolution 9. A consumer shall have the option of submitting any dispute arising under section 4 of this act to the division for resolution. The director may establish a filing fee, to be paid by the consumer, fixed at a level not to exceed the cost for the proper administration and enforcement of this act. This fee shall be recoverable as a cost under section 14 of this act. Upon application by the consumer and payment of any filing fee, the manufacturer shall submit to the State hearing procedure. The filing of the notice in subsection b. of section 5 of P.L.1988, c.123 (C.56:12-33) shall be a prerequisite to the filing of an application under this section. The director shall review a consumer's application for dispute resolution and accept eligible disputes for referral to the Office of Administrative Law for a summary hearing to be conducted in accordance with special rules adopted pursuant to the "Administrative Procedure Act," P.L.1968, c.410 (C.52:14B-1 et seq.), by the Office of Administrative Law in consultation with the director. Immediately upon acceptance of a consumer's application for dispute resolution, the director shall contact the parties and arrange for a hearing date with the Clerk of the Office of Administrative Law. The hearing date shall, to the greatest extent possible, be convenient to all parties, but shall be no later than 20 days from the date the consumer's application is accepted, unless a later date is agreed upon by the consumer. The Office of Administrative Law shall render a decision, in writing, to the director within 20 days of the conclusion of the summary hearing. The decision shall provide a brief summary of the findings of fact, appropriate remedies pursuant to this act, and a specific date for completion of all awarded remedies. The director, upon a review of the proposed decision submitted by the administrative law judge, shall adopt, reject, or modify the decision no later than 15 days after receipt of the decision. Unless the director modifies or rejects the decision within the 15-day period, the decision of the administrative law judge shall be deemed adopted as the final decision of the director. If the manufacturer unreasonably fails to comply with the decision within the specified time period, the manufacturer shall be liable for penalties in the amount of $5,000.00 for each day the manufacturer unreasonably fails to comply, commencing on the day after the specified date for completion of all awarded remedies. The Office of Administrative Law is authorized to issue subpoenas to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, papers and records relevant to the dispute. A manufacturer or consumer may appeal a final decision to the Appellate Division of the Superior Court. An appeal by a manufacturer shall not be heard unless the petition for the appeal is accompanied by a bond in a principal sum equal to the money award made by the administrative law judge plus $2,500.00 for anticipated attorney's fees and other costs, secured by cash or its equivalent, payable to the consumer. The liability of the surety of any bond filed pursuant to this section shall be limited to the indemnification of the consumer in the action. The bond shall not limit or impair any right of recovery otherwise available pursuant to law, nor shall the amount of the bond be relevant in determining the amount of recovery to which the consumer shall be entitled. If a final decision resulting in a refund to the consumer is upheld by the court, recovery by the consumer shall include reimbursement for actual expenses incurred by the consumer for the rental of a motor vehicle equivalent to the consumer's motor vehicle and limited to the period of time after which the consumer's motor vehicle was offered to the manufacturer for return under this act, except in those cases in which the manufacturer made a comparable vehicle available to the consumer free of charge during that period. If the court finds that the manufacturer had no reasonable basis for its appeal or that the appeal was frivolous, the court shall award treble damages to the consumer. Failure of the Office of Administrative Law to render a written decision within 20 days of the conclusion of the summary hearing as required by subsection b. of this section shall not be a basis for appeal. The Attorney General shall monitor the implementation and effectiveness of this act and report to the Legislature after three years of operation, at which time a recommendation shall be made either to continue under the procedures set forth in this act or to make such modifications as may be necessary to effectuate the purposes of this act. L.1988,c.123,s.9; amended 1993,c.21,s.4. 56:12-38. Statistics 10. The Division of Consumer Affairs shall maintain an index of all motor vehicle disputes by make and model. The division shall, at six-month intervals, compile and maintain statistics indicating the record of manufacturer compliance with any settlement procedure decisions. The statistics shall be public record. A manufacturer shall provide to the division all information on private arbitration or private buy-back programs maintained or instituted by the manufacturer. The information shall include the type and number of vehicles to which these programs apply and the reasons for establishing and maintaining the programs. The manufacturer shall provide the division with updated information at six month intervals. L.1988,c.123,s.10; amended 1993,c.21,s.5. 56:12-39. Decision binding A consumer shall not be required to participate in a manufacturer's informal dispute settlement procedure or the division's summary hearing procedure before filing an action in the Superior Court. However, a decision rendered in a proceeding brought pursuant to the division's summary hearing procedure shall be binding on the consumer and the manufacturer, subject to the right of appeal as set forth in subsection d. of section 9 of this act, and shall preclude the institution of any other action in the Superior Court under this act. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 11. 56:12-40. Affirmative defense It shall be an affirmative defense to a claim under this act that the alleged nonconformity does not substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the new motor vehicle or that the nonconformity is the result of abuse, neglect, or unauthorized modifications or alterations of the motor vehicle by anyone other than the manufacturer or its dealer. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 12. 56:12-41. Pleading Any party to an action in the Superior Court of this State asserting a claim, counterclaim or defense based upon violations of this act shall mail a copy of the initial or responsive pleading containing the claim, counterclaim or defense to the Attorney General within 10 days after filing the pleading with the court. Upon application to the court in which the matter is pending, the Attorney General may intervene or appear in any status appropriate to this matter. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 13. 56:12-42. Attorney, expert fees; costs 14. In any action by a consumer against a manufacturer brought in Superior Court or in the division pursuant to the provisions of this act, a prevailing consumer shall be awarded reasonable attorney's fees, fees for expert witnesses and costs. L.1988,c.123,s.14; amended 1993,c.21,s.6. 56:12-43. Use of funds All fees, penalties and costs collected by the division pursuant to this act shall be appropriated for purposes of offsetting costs associated with the handling and resolution of consumer automotive complaints. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 15. 56:12-44. Inherent design defect A manufacturer shall certify to the division, within one year of discovery, the existence of any inherent design defect common to all motor vehicles of a particular model or make. Failure to comply with this constitutes an unlawful practice pursuant to section 2 of P.L. 1960, c. 39 (C. 56:8-2). L. 1988, c. 123, s. 16. 56:12-45. Proceedings The director may institute proceedings against any manufacturer who fails to comply with any of the provisions of this act. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 17. 56:12-46. No liability, cause of action Nothing in this act shall be construed as imposing any liability on a dealer, or creating a cause of action by a manufacturer against a dealer, and nothing shall be construed as imposing any liability on a dealer, or creating a cause of action by a consumer against a dealer under section 4 of this act. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 18. 56:12-47. No limitation on rights Nothing in this act shall in any way limit the rights or remedies which are otherwise available to a consumer under any other law. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 19.. 56:12-48. Agreements void Any agreement entered into by a consumer for the purchase or lease of a new motor vehicle which waives, limits or disclaims the rights set forth in this act shall be void as contrary to public policy. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 20. 56:12-49. Rules, regulations Within 120 days following enactment, the director shall, subject to approval by the Attorney General and pursuant to the provisions of the "Administrative Procedure Act," P.L. 1968, c. 410 (C. 52:14B-1 et seq.), adopt rules and regulations necessary to effectuate the purposes of this act. L. 1988, c. 123, s. 21.
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Rfischer
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 11:51 am: |
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Court, your initial disagreement with my comment regarding the pointlessness of threats to sue is completely belied by your following detailed explanation in support of your disagreement. Read what you wrote my friend. It makes my point far better than I did. I loved it when a client got one of "those letters" and brought it to me for response. I could rack up untold billable hours with nary a twinge of conscience because the other side started it. |
Tbenson
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 12:16 pm: |
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Rfischer, I believe Court is saying, you do achieve something, what was going in your favor, has now went sour due to the threats, using Buell Customer Service as an example? |
Chadhargis
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 12:34 pm: |
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What's funny to me is how angry people get over having some bad luck. $hit happens. Get over it. You can cry, complain, and moan on an internet forum or you can be proactive and work to solve the problem. As a manager over a department that deals heavily with angry customers (aka frustrated end users), I know a fair bit about customer service. I've been doing it for nearly 25 years. I'm a certified Six Sigma Total Quality Management instructor. I've learned to identify people who are a real pain in the as$ and the ones who are patient, friendly, and want to work with you to solve the issue. The first time someone mentions phrases like, "this is ridiculous", "I shouldn't have to put up with this", "I want this done NOW", etc, etc....I usually shuffle them right back to the end of the line and tell them I'll get to them as soon as I can. They are miserable people who can't be made happy. Even if you were to solve their issue, they'd hold it against you that it happened in the first place and continually search for things that are wrong and throw a big fit over the smallest things. As Court said about the threat of suing, I'm that way with anyone who puts me on the defensive. I'm here to help, and I sincerely want to help, but when you raise your voice to me or use strong language, I suddenly have less of a desire to assist you. You've shot yourself in the foot. I will eventually fix your issue in a professional and timely manner, but I won't do you any favors. If you have a problem, any kind of problem, never put the party who can help you on the defensive. The four most powerful words in the English language are, "I need your help". Empower the person to help you. Put them at ease, and give them a reason to want to help you over all the other people who need their assistance. Kill them with kindness. Stop by at closing time with a case of beer or a bottle of Jack. Send a letter or email to the dealer owner and tell them what a pleasure it is to deal with John Doe, or whoever. Make them love you. Make them want to help you. Make them put you on the top of their list. You are one of many, they are one of few. Do what you can to vie for their time. But don't be fake about it. If you don't have a true concern for people or are a really good actor, then just be a prick and hope for the best. Someone faking nice is even worse, as they don't have the guts to be the prick they are. To keep on topic, the problem at hand is a part that is not in stock. What can be done about this? Not much really. If the dealer doesn't have the part, there isn't anything they can do. The thing to do is align yourself with them. You are both waiting on a part. They want your bike repaired and gone so they can get paid for the job. You want your bike back. You have common ground. Ask what you can do as a customer to help. Offer to make calls, send emails, etc. The time spent on an internet forum writing rants and trying to convince everyone a Buell is a POS is not going to solve anything. It's pointless. I guess it might make some people feel better, but in the end it's like kissing your sister. If it were my bike in the shop for that long waiting on a part, and knowing how small a company Buell is, I'd meet with the dealer owner and the two of us call Customer Service or the Buell Rep....someone who can help. I'd cut up, make some jokes, keep the call light and fun...not another dreaded "pissed off customer" call that no one likes. I'd ask questions such as, "can you help me understand the delay?". If the stators are defective, there may be a replacement being manufactured and they are not using the old ones anymore. That's a reasonable answer. I'd rather do without my bike for a couple of months and have it fixed right that have a band aid put on it. Once the reason for the delay had been discussed, then I'd say, "I hate to go here, but ya know, I'm making the payment on that beast. Is there anything that can be done to get me on two wheels while my bike is down? Winter is coming, and riding is my therapy." then laugh a bit. Put them in a position to be a hero. For those of you who are wanting to sell your bikes for a big loss, I sincerely wish I had the cash on hand to buy it. I'd take it to the shop, meet with the service manager, and laugh my butt off saying, "Can you believe I bought this bike for $xxxx dollars? Get her running right, and the beers are on me fellas!" Heck, I owe Bumpus a few beers anyway. I usually drink his. LOL! |
Rfischer
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 12:50 pm: |
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"....you do achieve something.." Ahhhhhhh.......missed that entirely. Which goes to show that while I may be able to write, I can't read! |
Thedavyboy
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 01:15 pm: |
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Anyway you guys write it means crap to the few of us without our bikes . Bottom line is someone ( buell or there supplier ) drop the ball . Six weeks or more for a stator ?? Give me a F&*%ing break ! |
Fdl3
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 01:41 pm: |
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Sounds like an opportune time for a good capitalist to make some money...any 1125 owner willing to sell their stator?! (Man, I love this smilie!) |
Xl1200r
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 02:43 pm: |
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I love hearing people use the "lemon law" bit without knowing any of the real details surrounding it. I've heard of people on here having Buell give them a new bike when theirs was clearly beyond repair. I have a friend who had a VW that was constantly in the shop for a brake squeal that they just couldn't fix. He had that car for a year, finally got fed up and his dealer told him to pick ANY car on the lot and they would credit him the FULL MSRP of his old car. Yeah, it sucked that it was in and out of the shop all that time, but he essentially drove that car for NO payments for a year when it was all said and done. Another friend of mine, Buell 1125 owner, needed some sensor replaced. When it was all said and done, they had to take it off a bike on the floor. My dealer has done this for things like levers in the past as well (not for me, but others). A stator is a bit more involved than a brake lever, but I think the advice on here for the most part is really good, except for the crap about suing and lemon laws. Anyway you guys write it means crap to the few of us without our bikes . Then you're missing the point. You don't have your bike. That sucks. Now you can either do everything you can to get things back in balance, or you can dig yourself a deeper hole. |
Chadhargis
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:30 pm: |
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Xl200r my friend....you get it. You always want to put yourself in a position to let someone help you. It's really unfortunate that anyone has to be without their bike, especially when it's new and you have that "new bike" excitement going on. In the end, if you cooperate, work with the dealer (and if they won't help you, Buell directly), your issues will be corrected. (Message edited by chadhargis on September 18, 2009) |
Paulp1125cr
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:50 pm: |
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hello gentlemen, well i'm getting my bike tomorrow, apparently not being nice did the trick. Someone at buell canada had the Harley Davidson/deeley canadian superbike team overnight there extra stator to my dealership today.I understand that being a dick to customer service people doesn't always work but i got a say 4 weeks of being nice didn't get me squat!one phone call with some mild yelling got me my part.I don't no if thats what did it(I am honestly not someone who calls customer service, this is the first time for any product)but i got my bike. I appreciate everyone's help even the guys who told me to suck it up. All the responses i got from you guys is one of the main reasons i bought one, Buell guys help eachother. Thanks to whoever got me the part if u read this |
Court
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:55 pm: |
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>>>It's really unfortunate that anyone has to be without their bike, especially when it's new and you have that "new bike" excitement going on. Absolutely agree. Wish I was more involved. I know a way I'd solve this in 4 days. |
2008xb12scg
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:57 pm: |
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Just wondering, isn't a stator a common thing to have go out? I really don't know what it is but it seems like I've heard it mentioned a few times. As far as the situation goes, I would have to agree being without his bike for that long is B.S. but to simplify the advice above, you get more flys with honey than vinegar. Even if it's not right. |
Ccryder
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:58 pm: |
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GREAT!!!! |
Chadhargis
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 05:34 pm: |
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I guess yelling works on some people. People generally don't like being yelled at, and there is typically two distinct responses. The person goes submissive, and does whatever they are told, or they go dominant and it becomes a pissing contest. I guess my Dad preaching to me the principles of Dale Carnegie, then attending the class when I graduated college really taught me two very valuable things. How to win people over to my way of thinking, and how to win friends and influence people. I carry those principles with me at all times and they have served me well. I've never in my life ever had to raise my voice to get my way. Not even with my child. |
Paulp1125cr
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 05:43 pm: |
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gee thanks Court you could of said that about 4 weeks ago. For anyone who has this stator problem right now i say get ready to wait, everyone i talked to buell canada and states say the same thing they don't have any until oct 9. Stay persistent and call CS everyday. Court if you really can solve this in 4 days why don't you help christiankid3 get a stator |
Paulp1125cr
| Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 05:46 pm: |
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you must be an amazing speaker chadhargis.i find it hard to believe you never got mad and raised your voice |
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