| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
How are purpose-built racing machines all using the same engine anything close to sportsbikes that we can purchase and ride on the street? Maybe I am misreading your use of "sportsbike"? I think Supersport and Daytona Sport Bike will remain the leading sport bike racing classes the world over. Supersport may well remain the number one production based club race series, but I envisage that within 2-3 years major national championships will be Moto2 based rather than purely production bikes. This will replace the now defunct national 250 classes, which were the feeders for GP racing in most countries (The US maybe different, although US 250GP racing has still produced a number of world class competitors even now). In most countries there is a huge gap between the national championships and GP racing, so we end up with most of our riders going down the Superbike route rather than to GP's, or moving to Spain where their structure is dedicated to producing GP riders. WSB has never produced a GP champion yet, and for the forseeable future the route will still be via the minor GP classes rather than from Superbikes. In the old days we used to have a national 250cc and 500cc series, and this fed riders directly into GP's. I can see it coming where riders will be able to run their moto2 style bike in national races and be able to enter selected GP's (Moto2)as privateers/wild cards, just as it used to be in the 50's, 60's and early 70's. This can only be good for the sport surely. Also, if various national championships sign up to the same basic rule structure as Moto2 it will encourage riders to race in different countries with the same bike (a great advantage in mainland Europe for instance, where at the moment different countries have different rules even for Superbike and Supersport). It is already very apparent that top riders salaries are going to be cut next year by up to 75% in series such as British Superbike, WSB and even MotoGP (Colin Edwards reputedly took a 1/2 million $ pay cut to stay at Tech 3), and that may see a return to the days when top riders rode in more than one series and appeared at large non championship International races too. Giving them a spec class bike to do that with at a top level would be a very good move indeed, and Moto2 would still retain the adjustability and exclusivity of a GP bike without the huge expense that goes with it. I remember when we used to get the likes of Agostini and Hailwood at Brands Hatch for non championship meetings riding MV and HOnda factory GP bikes regularly, simply because they needed to earn money so rode at as many meetings as possible, not just in selected GP's. I know things have changed somewhat since those heady days, but I do see some return to riders having to take in more than one series to make ends meet, and that can only be good for specatators surely. Fact: The Daytona 200 was much more popular and entertaining before the big factory teams took over. Wrong. Daytona was at its most popular in terms of spectator atendance and international coverage the 1970's when it was dominated by factory bikes from Triumph, BSA, Harley, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki etc and attracted ALL of the worlds top riders. Now it is a large club race. | ||
| Blake |
I dunno. On one hand you make the point that racing needs the support of all the factories, then on the other are thinking that the Moto-2 format will spread. I sure don't see Honda's competitors being too keen to support the spread of Moto-2 to the more prominent national series in place of Supersport type classes. | ||
| Trojan |
current production 'Superbike' racing needs factory support if it is to continue as the 'blue riband' national series and in WSB. If the National organisers change to a Moto2 style series then factory involvement would be a lot less important (although they would still need a supply of engines from somewhere of course). Honda scompetitors could continue to support production class racing or build chassis for a Moto2 style class. I very much doubt if the Moto2 engines will have Honda badging, but wil probably be just 'Moto2' engines. Moto2 has really been designed as a 'non factory' class to give private teams the chance to compete on an equal footing. However it seems that the factories will certainly be looking to get involved. Aprilia are going to build a chassis and Yamaha have hinted that they might also build a bike, even though it has a Honda engine. My guess is that we will see some of the smaller manufacturers getting involved with Moto2 chassis, asit will be a cost effective way to get their names on the GP grid (and on international TV) without the costs involved with either MotoGP or WSB. For a company like Buell it would be a win/win situation really. | ||
| Trojan |
It could even give Buell the chassis for a IL4/(or IL3 if MV get their engine ready in time) middleweight sports road bike of their own   | ||
| Ceejay |
Cool bike! Just couldn't bring yerself to go with the perimeter brake could ya I too think Buell would be loving that Moto2 class, but I'm still not sure if they've yet got the resources to commit to it, especially given the fact that they've committed themselves to supporting the RR in superbike. | ||
| Trojan |
Cool bike! Just couldn't bring yerself to go with the perimeter brake could ya Ha Ha Not guilty this time. It isn't my design | ||
| Blake |
Why would Buell want a 600cc IL4 gutless POS racebike for the road like all the others? | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Greg, You are out of your F'ing mind bro. Factory support is the key to a premier racing association. The Daytona 200 was popular, but it wasn't the factory involvement that took that away, it was a little article in Life magazine featuring an event in Hollister california that scared people of that era to death of motorcyclists and effectively separated what was a mainstream sport into a sub culture, to a large degree, outcasts. You think Buell did it perfectly this year, and for what they are bringing to the table maybe they did, but full factory teams bring in the sponsor's, top level riders, money to build excellent race tracks and the support to help market and progress the sport. I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, but you don't know what the F you are talking about on this one Greg. Had you wrote Dale, I disagree and this is why, instead of what you wrote, I would be much more civil. Good Day. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Why would Buell want a 600cc IL4 gutless POS racebike for the road like all the others? Ummm....the same ones the 1125R raced against in sportbike????....so if they are gutless......oh nevermind.... | ||
| Trojan |
Why would Buell want a 600cc IL4 gutless POS racebike for the road like all the others? Because that is what sells in their hundreds of thousands worldwide. More people want IL4 sport bikes than want idiosynchratic V-Twins. It is probably also part of the reason that H-D has acquired MV, obviously because they want to supply POS gutless IL4/IL3 sports bikes As for gutless? I think you'll find that most 600cc IL4's are hardly gutless. Whether it would be a POS would depend upon build quality wouldn't it? | ||
| Ceejay |
Buell as a motoco want to go racing right? They build chassis that, while many would argue, are designed around the motor, thus if they could garner the resources I'd think that this would be an awesome venue for them to get into, regardless of the motor, as it isn't going to the street anyhow. Or do you think we will all be riding around honda powered scooters soon? | ||
| Blake |
Gutless, meaning they have to rev to over 8K before anything meaningful in the way of power is available. Gutless as in no grunt. Gutless as in a gazelle versus a thoroughbred race horse or a put bull versus a gray hound. | ||
| Blake |
What racing fan who holds any interest in the machine will be eager to see an entire field of identically engined entries? Not this racing fan! Not many I know either. DMG has it right. Ten years from now, I'd not be surprised to see something more akin to World Supersport and Daytona Sport Bike be far more popular the world over than anything resembling Moto-2. The thing is, even if that form of racing is the optimum path to MotoGP, there are only so many seats in the MotoGP paddock and it is ludicrous to magine the entire world gravitating to that format just to support MotoGP. | ||
| Blake |
Do you really think Buell wants to invest their precious engineering resources into designing, developing and testing a race-only chassis for a few Moto-2 entries? That makes zero sense to me. Buell, please at least for now continue to concentrate on designing killer sport bikes for the street and maybe a little bit on making them also killer Superbike platforms for the track.  | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake seems to have this narrow-minded idea that the only real motorcycle engine has two cylinders in a V-configuration. The IL4 has proven itself time and time again as the most efficient and compact package for a high performance motorcycle engine. "Character" and "Emotion" don't win races. | ||
| Jaimec |
PS: The most exciting race I ever saw was the BMW Boxer Cup at Daytona many years ago. Everyone rode IDENTICAL BMW R1100S bikes with only team colors marking the differences. The bikes were going into the corners three and four abreast, so close you could hear the cylinder heads banging into one another. It was also one of the quietest races I ever watched, too.  I never did get to see BMW's "Battle of the Legends" races, but I'm betting they were a lot of fun too (just a lot slower because they rode the old airhead R100R bikes). The criticism, of course, was that BMW wasn't good enough to race against the other manufacturers, so they created a class with just THEIR bikes. Others have done it too. Guess BMW got tired of hearing things like that, hence the S1000RR. | ||
| Trojan |
The thing is, even if that form of racing is the optimum path to MotoGP, there are only so many seats in the MotoGP paddock and it is ludicrous to magine the entire world gravitating to that format just to support MotoGP. But that is what pretty much all motorcycle racing does now. Speak to any club racer right up to national level, and most will harbour ambition to be at the top of their sport, which is MotoGP. Of course there are limited oportunities to get into MotoGP, it is an elite sport. If we could all do it then it wouldn't be MotoGP would it? What racing fan who holds any interest in the machine will be eager to see an entire field of identically engined entries? Again, we do it now. 40,000+ people packed into my local track at Croft last weekend to see British Superbikes. Every single entry in every single class (Superbike/Supersport/Superstock/Junior Superstock) was a virtually identical IL4 design (with the exception of one Ducati 1198 in Superstock) but that doesn't stop the racing being exciting or the fans wanting to watch them. With Moto2 the engine won't even be a factor. Within 2 seasons you won't care what engine is in it. The exciting thing is that there will be far more chassis manufacturers to follow and to cheer for, and far greater variety of chassis combinations. I'm sure the racing will be much closer and more entertaining for it. DMG has it right. Ten years from now, I'd not be surprised to see something more akin to World Supersport and Daytona Sport Bike be far more popular the world over than anything resembling Moto-2. Ten years from now people will look back at DMG's involvement with the AMA and wonder how it all went so wrong! Daytona Sportbike has no chance of being introduced outside the AMA any time soon that's for sure. Supersport racing will always be around so long as the manufacturers still build supersport bikes. If they stop then Supersport racing will stop and be replaced by something else. Less than 20 years ago we didn't have Supersport and nobody would have thought that GP racing would ever be anything other than 500cc two strokes. Times change and organisers/promoters have to change with them. Moto2 is the future for motorcycle middleweight road racing and national organisers need to jump on the bandwagon now. | ||
| Trojan |
Do you really think Buell wants to invest their precious engineering resources into designing, developing and testing a race-only chassis for a few Moto-2 entries? That would be a very short sighted view. If Buell developed and tested a chassis in Moto2 it would get HUGE exposure (far more than winning DSB has done this year) on a worldwide scale. People would associate the Buell name with racing (which they certainly don't outside the USA right now) and if it won then Buell would get the kudos from that too. More importantly, Buell would then be able to use the chassis technology that they use in Moto2 for future projects. MV will have a new 3 cylinder motor available very soon, so maybe H-D will allow Buell to use that motor, or maybe Buell would find another engine supplier eventually rather than stick to the V Twin layout. Either way, race bred chassis technology would be a useful tool for the company in so many ways. Developing a Moto2 chassis would be far far cheaper than trying to get the same international exposure running a WSB team that's for sure. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"You are out of your F'ing mind bro....The Daytona 200 was popular, but it wasn't the factory involvement that took that away, it was a little article in Life magazine featuring an event in Hollister california..." You need to do a little more research and critical thinking "bro". The "Hollister Event" occurred in 1947 and the 50th aniversary was celebrated in Hollister in 1997. (Been there, done that and got the T-shirt.) The famous photo in Life magazine was posed and most of the "facts" in the article were fabricated. If, as you claim, the "Hollister Event" killed the Daytona 200 it took the public thirty years or more to "get it". You got any theories on the "Rosswell Event"? Sorry if it sounds like I "dissed" you "bro", but you are way off the glide path. G | ||
| Trojan |
I thought I had read that part of the reason that the Daytona 200 and the AMA championships in general lost popularity back in the early 70's was because the AMA were greedy and wouldn't share money with the promoters/organisers, which eventually led to a lot of the good promoters pulling out and leaving the AMA 'high & dry' with nowhere to race and nobody to promote them. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
An IL4 600cc Buell, sounds very interesting and there is a huge market for it. Actually the current CBR600 stock bike has a decent midrange, unlike the R6. Imagine a "big-bang" IL4 600cc, for sale. It sounds great for people looking for a lightweight bike, ready to go with a chassis developed in the moto2 series. Who would not be interested in trying one?? Regardless what Buell does, the fact that there will be a racing series that Bimota, Harris, Suter, Aprilia, Honda, etc, etc, will race in the world level, is great for moto-racing. What is MV doing about racing nowdays ?? Lets wait and see how the moto2 turns out, before we reject it. | ||
| Trojan |
What is MV doing about racing nowdays ?? Very little because they have had no money until recently. There is (was) an MV in British Superbikes this season, but it had a nasty habit of blowing up and dumping oil everywhere! It certainly wasn't competitive and I didn't see it at the last round. I believe that an Italian team were racing an MV in European Superstock championships but don't know how succesful they have been. These are both privateer teams with no factory involvement, and it shows unfortunately. Regardless what Buell does, the fact that there will be a racing series that Bimota, Harris, Suter, Aprilia, Honda, etc, etc, will race in the world level, is great for moto-racing. Exactly my point | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So an MV with a Honda engine and a good rider in moto2, that does not blow up, sounds like a good idea. I just love this new moto2 thing ! Time to wear my Bimota t-shirt with even more pride ! I remember Mr. Buell in one interview, saying that he has many patends for "new technology" chassis and suspension components. I think it is time for him to get motivated and busy! This is the right opportunity, gas it! | ||
| Amafan |
Trojan since your in love with what the Spain racing structure has produced I thought I would check the facts from 1978 to 2008 .Spanish riders have won one 500/MotoGP title have finished 2nd 4 times and finished 3rd twice in the championship in the last 30 years . American riders in the last 30 years in the MotoGP/500 class have won 15 Championships and have finished 2nd 10 times and 3rd 10 times in the championship . No Spanish rider has ever won a WSBK championship while Americans have won the most WSBK titles 8 and Ben Spies could make that 9 by the end of this year . | ||
| Oddball |
The single make series' (like the BBQ series) are fun to owners of that particular bike or fans of that brand. It's a direct connection to the average joe and his machine sitting out in the garage. It sounds to me like that Moto2 will end up looking like 250/125. Oh goody, *yawn*. A giant pack of near identical machines from beginning to end. See, Europe has had and will continue to have NAS-BIKE. (hyphen inserted because the server makes it look like this "NAmerican Sport BikeIKE" (complete with a link to American Sport Bike) without it. The US version can get the NASCAR sponsors in on it. Something like a bright orange Tony Stewart Racing-Home Depot bike.  All that pack(nascar) or conga line(250/125) racing is is an endurance race. You hope your competitors break down, wreck or are knocked off the pace somehow so you can be the head buzzing bee to cross the line. Whoopee. Might be fun if your in that pack but sleep inducing from my perspective. It does serve the function of keeping as many sponsors logos on the screen as long as possible. Just a simple view from one of the average joes. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
You need to do a little more research and critical thinking "bro". The "Hollister Event" occurred in 1947 and the 50th aniversary was celebrated in Hollister in 1997. (Been there, done that and got the T-shirt.) The famous photo in Life magazine was posed and most of the "facts" in the article were fabricated. If, as you claim, the "Hollister Event" killed the Daytona 200 it took the public thirty years or more to "get it". You got any theories on the "Rosswell Event"? Sorry if it sounds like I "dissed" you "bro", but you are way off the glide path. I am quite familiar with Wino Willy and the story of the Boozefighters as I have met the old codger in Dallas, jerk...since you didn't like bro. Anyway, yes 1947, fourth of july weekend and yes it was faked and yes it did help kill off the racing enthusiasm at Daytona and everywhere else for that matter, hence why 1% are called 1%( I am just assuming you know..bad to assume, I will tell you, then AMA president was asked about the outlaw biker image portrayed in the Life Magazine article, he responded that only 1% of their membership was a problem...), as well as when it was taken off the beach and moved to the speedway, Bro. I am not way off the glide path, I have been amongst at a following racing events since the first hill climb my dad took me too at the age of 4, bro. I keep throwing that in there just to irritate you by the way, bro. Your idea of racing is your idea, fine, go with that, if you want to live in your fantasy world live there I don't care. Good luck to you. | ||
| Backcountryme |
First off, Tony is not with Home Depot anymore. And what would be wrong with a large pack of motorcycles fighting for the the first spot? I would call that exciting racing. I hate when one rider is running off with a 6 or 7+ second margin. I for one like close racing. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan since your in love with what the Spain racing structure has produced I thought I would check the facts from 1978 to 2008 .Spanish riders have won one 500/MotoGP title have finished 2nd 4 times and finished 3rd twice in the championship in the last 30 years . American riders in the last 30 years in the MotoGP/500 class have won 15 Championships and have finished 2nd 10 times and 3rd 10 times in the championship . No Spanish rider has ever won a WSBK championship while Americans have won the most WSBK titles 8 and Ben Spies could make that 9 by the end of this year . Between 1949 and 2008 Italy produced 19 World 500cc/MotoGP champions, Britain 17 and the USA only 15. If you are talking about multiple champions then the first US rider is only in joint 4th place with 4 titles (Eddie Lawson), and he shares that distinction with John Surtees, Mike Hailwood and Geoff Duke. So what? We can argue with statistics until the cows come home. What about the next 30 years? The fact is that MotoGP is pretty much owned and run by the Spanish now (DORNA), so it don't matter really how many champions you have had in the past or indeed how many GP champions Britain had before the US discovered that the rest of the world had been road racing motorcycles for years and hadn't invited them  Spanish sponsors and Spanish based teams make up the majority for 125 and 250 classes and will probably do the same in the Moto2 class. These teams are of course made up primarily of Spanish riders or riders who have progressed into GP's through the Spanish system such as Bradley Smith, Scot Redding and your own PJ Jacobsen. The most powerful team owner in MotoGP is Spanish, as are a lot of the most important people behind the scenes and in decisionmaking positions iside MotoGP. Next year moto GP will probably have at least 5 Spanish riders (Lorenzo, Bautista, Barbera, Pedrosa, Espargaro + possibly Toni Elias) which is more than any other nation including the US,UK and Austrlia combined (and every other English speaking nation come to think of it). If you go to a Spanish motorcycle race you will regularly get over 100,000 paying spectators at the circuit, and a TV audience for MotoGP in excess of 25 million Spanish viewers. Their whole racing system is organised so that riders are trained and funnelled into GP racing. It is absolutely inconceivable that their system will not produce world champions in the future, and the only surprise to me is that they haven't won more before now!. Now we can just sit on our respective colonial laurels harping on about how many championships we won in the good old days, or we could look to see how the Spanish system has produced so many top riders of the present era and do something similar. One thing is for certain. If we just carry on with our production based racing and weird 'concocted Sportsbike' categories we won't have many more MotoGP champions in the future (and I include the current generation of US and UK riders). Unfortunately I can see that the next US or UK GP champion will not be a home grown hero but will be a product of the Spanish racing system, but that doesn't mean I am in love with it. | ||
| Oddball |
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Sep/090918hond aout.htm Honda Fully Pulling Out of US Series? by dean adams Friday, September 18, 2009 Shockwaves are rolling across the US roadrace industry this afternoon with the word that American Honda is completely pulling out of DMG/AMA Superbike/Sport Bike/Supersport for 2010. The current spec of the rumor has them pulling all levels of support including Corona Honda, Erion Honda, factory-supplied technicians and any race team staff. It's known that DMG execs were at Honda's Torrance facility earlier this week for a meeting with American Honda management. E-mail requests for comment have not yet been returned. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...following racing events since the first hill climb my dad took me too at the age of 4, bro. Gosh, I hope you'll forgive me if I'm not impressed. I was attending races long before you soiled your first diaper. I'm not sure when either of us attended our first race has anything to do with anything. You can call me bro or jerk or anything else that gets you up, when some people try such childish tactics it's a compliment. Carry on sonny. G  |
