| Author | Message | ||
     Gaesati |
I notice the Ducati team in interview says that Stoner is less aggressive than most others on the throttle and owes his results on the ducati to a)smoothness and b)throttle sensitivity. Part of the problem they have is that Stoner seems to be able to ride around the bike's deficiencies and ride with a low degree of traction control. Some reporters indicate that Stoner is able to sense what the throttle will do better than other riders who are thrown, not by traction control, but by the wway the electronics reduce power in corners to save fuel. | ||
| Trojan |
I notice the Ducati team in interview says that Stoner is less aggressive than most others on the throttle and owes his results on the ducati to a)smoothness and b)throttle sensitivity. I would put at least 50% of that statement down to Ducati PR B*llsh*t. Every other trackside expert has so far said that Stoner is incredibly hard on the throttle, but gets away with it because the Ducati traction control is so advanced that it allows him to open the throttle 100% in a corner and the electronics will sort it out. His riding style is certainly not smooth, and on previous bikes such as the Honda and in 250 he was definitely not a smooth rider - in fact anything but! This year the Yamaha electronics have caught up with the Ducati, which is the main reason that Stoner has struggled to keep up (prior to his mystery illness of course). If having great throtle control and being smooth is the answer to mastering the Ducati then they need to hire Aoyama instead of Stoner/Hayden, as he is the smoothest rider in GP's at the moment. | ||
| Jaimec |
This article tends to lend credibility to Matt's argument: http://motorcycledaily.com/15september09_desmomyst ery.htm Stoner is brutal on the throttle. "Smooth" is NOT part of his vocabulary. You just have to watch the footage of the duel between him and Rossi at last year's Laguna Seca to see the incredible difference between Stoner's style and Rossi's. Rossi's bike seemed planted on the track, whereas both ends of Stoner's bike were sliding all over the place. | ||
| Trojan |
It looks like it is official: Spies is going to Tech 3 for 2010 and Toseland is out of a job. http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresul ts/MotoGP/2009/September/sep1709-toseland-loses-mo togp-ride/ | ||
| Gaesati |
I had the impression that the team was saying that Stoner was fast despite the quality of their bike. Usually factories tend to praise the bike rather than the rider. It is a peculiar sort of pr b*****t to denigrate themselves and to praise the rider! Stoner has seemed to be masterfully in control of the bike, which is wayward, on each occasion I have seen him live. Pity about Toseland. I take your point about Aoyama however. Maybe Ducati should hire an up and coming 250 rider for their bike. | ||
| Gaesati |
...and of course every other trackside expert is not in the team and doesn't have access to Stoner's datalogger files. | ||
| Blake |
Wow! That is surprising news eh Matt? Go Team Texas!  | ||
| Trojan |
It certainly surprised most people who didn't think that there would be two US riders in Tech 3 next year, including me! I think the rider choice has basically been dictated by Yamaha rather than Tech 3, as they would have preferred a French rider (Herve Poncharal has made no secret that he wants Jules Cluzel in his team). | ||
| Blake |
Jules Cluzel? Who the heck is that? | ||
| Trojan |
Jules Cluzel? Who the heck is that? French 250GP privateer who has been in the 250 class on pretty uncompetitive machinery since 2006. He went to 125 in 2008 but is now back in 250GP and looking better than before on a semi competitve privateer Aprilia. Finished 2nd at Qatar this year and is currently 12th in the 250 championship. If I remember correctly he actually led the Indy 250 GP for a while at the start of the race, before being swallowed up by the factory boys and then crashing. Poncheral will sign him for his Moto2 team next year if he can, no question. | ||
| Blake |
Doesn't sound like much of a prospect for MotoGP to me. This Poncheral fellow must not be to keen on actually winning races. | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, I think "politics" plays as big a (if not a bigger) part as "winning" in MotoGP. Why else would JIR sign a consistent back marker like Gabor Talmasci (sp?)? | ||
| Trojan |
Doesn't sound like much of a prospect for MotoGP to me Depends how you look at it. Does a guy that has 3 years experience of the GP tracks and has finished on the podium this year in 250GP sound like a worse prospect than a guy who is coming straight from a rookie WSB season and has no GP experience except for two wild card rides on uncompetitive Suzukis in the past? Spies will probably be very good in MotoGP, but there is of course still the chance that he won't. Both Toseland and Edwards have won WSB easily before but neither have won a GP yet, so we will see if Ben can improve upon their performances so far next year. All the signs are there that he will be able to do it, but there are also things going against him too. His riding style will have to change to adapt to the high corner speed 800's and he will probably have to develop a more aerodynamic style than he currently employs if he is to stay with the fastest of the GP bikes. He is also physically bigger than most MotoGP riders, so again it will be interesting to see how he adapts to the bikes, which are physically smaller than Superbikes. Jaimec is right about the politics. Money can buy you a GP ride if you have enough of it and the team need funds. Talmacsi brought some lucrative oil sponsorship with him to the Scot team, so talent became a secondary issue for them. If htere was any justice he would be ousted in favour of Aoyama next year, but I doubt he will. A lot also has to do with your sponsor nationality and just who they want riding their bike. Aspar's new Ducati team was only ever going to have a Spanish rider, regardless of who else was available. | ||
| Blake |
>>>Depends how you look at it. Does a guy that has 3 years experience of the GP tracks and has finished on the podium this year in 250GP sound like a worse prospect than a guy who is coming straight from a rookie WSB season and has no GP experience except for two wild card rides on uncompetitive Suzukis in the past? If that WSB rookie is Ben Spies, not only yes, but heck yes! DUH! Funny you didn't mention his record in WSBK, but are seemingly impressed with a mere podium in 250GP. It is true that tiny people have an advantage in MotoGP. They really should set a minimum weight for rider+machine. It's darn sad that larger men are not able to be competitive due to the weight factor being so significant. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is a matter of talent, not size. Look at Rossi, Spies, Xaus,etc, etc, Why there should be a minimum weight ?? Is there a maximum height in basketball or volleyball ?? | ||
| Slaughter |
That's what I tried telling my first ex-wife. | ||
| Jaimec |
Yamaha is now saying: "Not so fast!" | ||
| Jimidan |
Slaughter sez: That's what I tried telling my first ex-wife. I guess since she is now your "ex" that she wasn't buying it? Trojan sez: "than a guy who is coming straight from a rookie WSB season and has no GP experience except for two wild card rides on uncompetitive Suzukis in the past? Gee, if I didn't know any better, I'd say your bias is showing... This "guy" is the former AMA Champ and is sweeping the entire field in his "rookie WSB season" on tracks that he has never even seen, and probably will win it all. His wild card rides in MotoGP have shown that he is very competitive in that venue, even though he was on inferior equipment.  Ben Spies is much more talented than Toseland and the Tornado, as evidenced by his rookie year performances. Shucks, he may be pushing the envelope up there with the Rossi and Lorenzo next year on inferior equipment. | ||
| Jaimec |
And Ben had THREE rides on the Suzuki. The planned rides at Laguna and Indy, and the unplanned one in Europe when Loris injured himself in a crash. As I recall, he outperformed the Suzuki factory regulars each time, too... | ||
| Trojan |
If that WSB rookie is Ben Spies, not only yes, but heck yes! DUH! Funny you didn't mention his record in WSBK, but are seemingly impressed with a mere podium in 250GP. What I meant was that why should Cluzel be a nobody just because you haven't heard of him in the US? Why should he be any less of a prospect in MotoGP than Ben Spies, who despite his obvious talent has yet to ride in the series other than as a wild card. If you think it is easy to get a 'mere podium' in 250 GP tell me who the last US rider to do was, adn how long ago it was? WSB is not GP racing. We have seen plenty of WSB top riders and champions come to GP's and fail to win a race. Most don't even get close. If you read what I actually said it was that Spies will probably be very good in MotoGP, but nothing is sure until he gets there and performs. I have no bias against Spies or any other GP rider, but to put him on a pedestal before he even truns a wheel is a little premature don't you think? | ||
| Davegess |
Benis one of those "special" guys. No telling how well he will do but it will be well. You don't move up the ladder as fast as he has without major talent. I will go out on a limb and say he can reach the level of Roberts if he has any luck at all. I am thinking Yamaha wants him around for a long time as the guy who assumes Rossi's throne. Lorenzo won't know what hit him. IF Ben is on a GP bike next year it may carry Tech 3 colors but I would bet it's just a hair away from what Rossi gets. When Ben wins the WSBK title he can write his own ticket; he and his mom are not going to let him race on inferior equipment. He will either have a shot at a title or will race elsewhere. Ben is one of those guys who wants to WIN and WIN NOW. He won't be bidding his time waiting for his turn. He will be up front pushing to the limit and learning. I am looking forward to him and Rossi going at it on almost equal equipment. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, So now you're contending that gaining a podium finish in 250GP is comparable to multiple wins in WSBK? >>>What I meant was that why should Cluzel be a nobody just because you haven't heard of him in the US? Why should he be any less of a prospect in MotoGP than Ben Spies... Uh, he's a nobody, because... I've not ever heard of him, nor have most American racing fans I suspect. He's a nobody because he's not a winner, let alone a champion. Ben is, many times over. Seems simple enough to me. >>> (Ben Spies), who despite his obvious talent has yet to ride in the series other than as a wild card. WTF does that mean? He's no good for MotoGP because he hasn't competed there yet?  >>>If you think it is easy to get a 'mere podium' in 250 GP tell me who the last US rider to do was, adn how long ago it was? Top American road racers these days don't bother racing in such inferior foreign series. Why should they? 250GP is a Euro-centric series. They don't even travel to all the MotoGP events. One reason I don't have as much enthusiasm for the Indy MotoGP event is the lack of real motorcycle racing in the support classes. I have zero desire to watch two stroke road racing. I don't like it. It annoys me. | ||
| Jaimec |
It's a shame, Blake. You're missing out on some exciting racing. Very close with lots of overtaking and passing. | ||
| Blake |
If I'm not interested in the machinery, and if the noise it produces irritates me, and if I don't know any of the competitors, then I'm not going to watch. | ||
| Trojan |
Top American road racers these days don't bother racing in such inferior foreign series. 250 GP is inferior to AMA/DMG competiton? Yeah right! You need to watch a 250GP race Blake. How many 'top American road racers' are there anyway these days? With the exception of Spies (and maybe Herrin and DiSalvo) there are not many that would be good enough to win at WSB or GP level anyway. Hopkins is washed up and Edwards will always be the bridesmaid but never the bride. Mladin (Who isn't American anyway) has retired, Hacking (who is British) is too old and Bostrom had his chance but couldn't deliver. The days of US riders getting GP rides because of their dirt track backgrounds and rear wheel steering ability have long gone, and MotoGP now requires a high corner speed 250 riding style. If US riders are obviously so much above demeaning themselves by riding in 250/Moto2 'Euro-Centric' classes then we won't see many more in MotoGP in future either. With DMG going their own way and Moto2 becoming the natural feeder class for GP racing I don't think we'll see any home grown US riders in MotoGP for a while after Ben Spies. If I'm not interested in the machinery, and if the noise it produces irritates me, and if I don't know any of the competitors, then I'm not going to watch. Then you are hardly qualified to comment on the talent or prospects of riders that you have never heard of because you don't follow the series and don't like the noise. Most of the top MotoGP guys have and will continue to come up from the established 'inferior foreign' 125GP/250GP/Moto2 racing including Valentino Rossi, Casey Stoner, Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa, Andrea Dovizioso etc etc etc. When you say that Spies will beat everyone else you don't even give these guys consideration let alone the top 250 runners that will be in MotoGP next year such as Simoncelli, Bautista, Aoyama, Barbera... Spies will undoubtedly do well in MotoGP, but those that think it will be a cake walk are in for a shock I think. As for Spies getting equal equipment to Rossi and Lorenzo. I don't think that will happen in year one. Tech 3 may get slightly better kit than they had this year (although even that wasn't too far removed from factory spec) but the Yamaha heirarchy is set in contracts and poilitics. The Fiat team are the number one Yamaha team and will get the best of everything, Tech 3 will get what is left even with Spies on board. The onlytime that will change is if SPies is the only Yamaha rider with a mathmatical chance of winning the championship or to stop another rival getting points. If Rossi decides to stay at Yamaha for 2011-2012 then Spies will be left in a situation where he will either have to jump ship to another team or stay in the number two team for another year at least. Personally I think the lure of riding for Ducati may prove to great for Rossi and if he can take Burgess with him he may finish his career in the Italian team. | ||
| Jaimec |
Speaking of which, I sure hope Tech3 allows Ben to take "House" along with him from WSBK. House is Ben's Burgess... | ||
| Blake |
Probably half the paddock in the AMA is better than that French nobody podium winner you were going on about. I bet Melissa Paris with her cast on would scare the little 250 rider off the track. Danny Eslick for one. Josh Herrin, Tommy Aquino, Martin Cardenas, Taylor Knapp, Cory West, Roger Hayden, Josh Hayes, Jason Disalvo, Jake Zemke, Tommy Hayden. I'd put any of them up against your 250GP podium winner. Who the heck ever stated that Spies will have "a cake walk" in MotoGP??? You're making stuff up now amigo. I don't think anyone will have a cake walk in MotoGP next year. I hope Stoner returns and makes it more interesting. And I hope little Pedro keeps plugging away but falling short, pun intended.  The change to spec tires has made the MotoGP racing much more interesting as it has in all the other series as well. Is there one left anywhere that doesn't use spec tires? I agree, it would be too cool to see Rossi jump over to Ducati. I wonder why Suzuki has had such a tough time getting competitive in MotoGP. | ||
| Trojan |
Probably half the paddock in the AMA is better than that French nobody podium winner you were going on about. I bet Melissa Paris with her cast on would scare the little 250 rider off the track. As you have never heard of Cluzel or most of the other 250 riders that statement is pure rubbish. If the US riders you mention are that good then let them go to WSB/MotoGP.Moto2 and have a go at it. Zemke has already tried it and didn't do very well in his stand in rides for Stiggy Honda and DiSalvo spent 2 seasons racing in British 125 without huge success if memory serves correctly (although I still think he is one of the best of the current US riders). Josh Herrin is very talented and completely wasted in AMA competition I agree. Hopefully they will make the jump soon to WSS/Moto2 before the AMA loses all credibility/marketability with the International racing scene. The change to spec tires has made the MotoGP racing much more interesting as it has in all the other series as well. The change to spec tyres in MotoGP hasn't made any diference to the riders that are winning races. It is still the same names at the top of the sheets every weekend. In fact of all the series that have changed to a spec tyre I would say that MotoGP has been the least sucessful in terms of opening up the competition. | ||
| Crusty |
Interesting article over at Roadracing World : http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=38146 | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"The change to spec tyres in MotoGP hasn't made any diference to the riders that are winning races. It is still the same names at the top of the sheets every weekend. In fact of all the series that have changed to a spec tyre I would say that MotoGP has been the least sucessful in terms of opening up the competition." OK, but it helped those riders that had to ride inferior equipment&tyres, to show their speed...eg. Randy DePuniet. He was considered over last year, but now he is definately staying in motoGP. I can still rememember the race when he humiliated Pedrosa on the Factory Honda. Spec tires have their advantages.....although I would like to see Michelin back in motoGP |
