| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Lemonchili: I think it's a PERFECT series for Buell. "Someone else's engine??" Buell doesn't BUILD engines, they source the engine from someone else already (Harley Davidson and Rotax). Buell builds Chassis, and it would be a GREAT showcase for Erik to prove his chassis ideas on the world stage. I doubt it would happen but I'd LOVE to see it. No more stupid arguments over displacement... the only differential between bikes (besides the rider of course) would be the chassis and suspension. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
100% agree with Jaimec for this argument. | ||
| Slaughter |
Heck, maybe let's us let Erik make the judgement call here? Bimota has a really cool street twin (saw one up at Newcomb's Ranch) - and nobody had crucified them for using the SV1000 (TL1000?) engine. | ||
| Reepicheep |
But why on earth would you build the same chassis for an inline four that you would build for a twin? The class seems to be just another "inline four / Ohlin / Brembo / spec class". | ||
| Jaimec |
Why would you think Erik would build the same chassis?? We're talking "Trilogy of Tech" here. That principle can be applied to ANY engine. Hell, if Erik can make a viable sport bike out of that antique lump of metal from Harley, he can CERTAINLY build something interesting around a modern IL4! Especially one narrower than the Sportster twin! | ||
| Elvis |
If you read between the lines of this interview, it seems Edmondson is making it pretty clear they'll be putting restrictions on the Buell next year: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=38121 That just confirms to me that the best route for Buell is to make a no-question-about-it street version of the 1125RR and go Superbike racing. No more controversy, no more "Buell can only race against 600's", no more questions if Danny is only winning because he has an "unfair advantage" and no need to worry about how DMG restrictions will hold the 1125R back. Just all-out racing against the best, fastest bikes available. (Message edited by elvis on September 16, 2009) | ||
| Jaimec |
Amen. But to be truly competitive, Buell should build an 1199RR to go head-to-head with Ducati and KTM. | ||
| 186bigtwin |
AMEN, build the damn 1199c engine and get with it !!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Trojan |
If you read between the lines of this interview, it seems Edmondson is making it pretty clear they'll be putting restrictions on the Buell next year: Here we go again. Edmondson starting to talk about rule changes without consultation with the people concerned. He will either change his mind before next season or eventually tell the manufacturers in February again, too late to plan anything for a season starting in March. On the Moto2 subject: This class is set to become THE standard sportsbike class in International and National racing. Spanish organisers have already scrapped their Supersports 600 class for 2010 in favour of a full Moto2 style competition. Their rules may not feature a spec engine like the GP class, but could offer people the chance to run supersports spec engines from any manufacturer in prototype chassis. I would envisage other forward looking national organisers running similar classes in the next 3-5 years, and it is a class that both the AMA and ACU (UK) should grab with both hands if they have any chance of ending the current Spanish domination of all GP classes. In any case, it is an exciting development and could spell the end of relatively boring (in technical terms) production class racing and bring in some great chassis developments such as hub centre steering that we haven't seen in a proper race bike since ELF finished years ago  Initially I think the chassis manufacturers will play relatively safe with 250GP lookalike bikes, but I think there will be more experimental designs surfacing before long. | ||
| Macdiver |
the best route for Buell is to make a no-question-about-it street version of the 1125RR and go Superbike racing. The street version of the 1125RR is the 1125. The RR is just a factory installed race kit. Why can't people understand this? If there were any rules bent it was with the mods allowed to the engine not that it isn't based on a street bike. But since DMG approved all of the mods NO RULES WERE BENT!!!! Get over it people. | ||
| Elvis |
Macdiver, if that's true, then they can slap a full-fairing on an 1125R, call it a 1125RR, charge a premium for it and everyone will be happy. Based on the initial press release, I thought what you said was true, but later statements from DMG indicated that Buell asked for too many allowances for the bike to be called an 1125R. We know, at the very least, the air-box isn't stock and that's required for Superbike. I also suspect that the pistons are lighter and that's not allowed. I'm the biggest fan going, so I'm not saying this as a knock on Buell . . . I just want to buy one. | ||
| Jaimec |
Macdiver: I believed that at first... but later articles proved that there were far more changes between the 1125RR and the 1125R than was allowed by the rules so DMG changed the rules. THAT is the problem. I understand DMG's thinking... a $40K, race-ready bike makes racing "affordable" for a lot more people and MIGHT help expand the grid. But once again, they did it the WRONG way. Hopefully they've learned from their bone-headedness in 2009 and 2010 will be better. On paper, it will be. Let's just see how it rolls out. In the meantime, you can still see real racing in the USA at three venues: Laguna Seca, Miller Motorsports Park, and Indianapolis. | ||
| Trojan |
Hopefully they've learned from their bone-headedness in 2009 and 2010 will be better. On paper, it will be. Let's just see how it rolls out. Hmmm, not by the sound of this they haven't... http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=38131 | ||
| Elvis |
DMG's customers are not Japanese motorcycle manufacturers. DMG's customers are us. If viewers of motorcycle racing in the US are saying: "To earn our business, you need to bow to the Japanese manufacturers and get their money into this series." then Edmondson isn't working to "earn their business". I can only speak for myself, but the way Edmondson can earn my business is to have diverse brands and riders racing in close competition. I'd like to see Aprilia RSV4's and BMW S1000RR's and KTM RC8's racing in Superbike next year along with Buell 1125RR's and the usual suspects. He'd be doing more to earn MY business by making that happen than kissing the butts of the Japanese manufacturers. And by the way, that article suggests that Kawasaki will be racing 250 Ninja's in a special series. That would imply to me that Kawasaki is coming on board with Yamaha and we can expect at least some participation from them next year. That only leaves Honda and Suzuki and it would be foolish to think that Honda and Suzuki won't be represented by Erion and Yoshimura in at least some form. Bending over backwards to get big Japanese money is pretty low on my list of things Edmondson has to do to earn MY business. | ||
| Trojan |
And by the way, that article suggests that Kawasaki will be racing 250 Ninja's in a special series. That would imply to me that Kawasaki is coming on board with Yamaha and we can expect at least some participation from them next year. All it implies to me is that Kawasaki will come onboard to run a series for the Ninja250 ONLY. It certainly doesn't imply anything else. If that, and the Yamaha 450 singles class are what RE thinks makes up a great racing programme he is deluded. How many people will pay to watch either of those series, regardless of how close the racing is? Superbikes without any of the Jap 'Big 4' will not be Superbikes at all, and of the three brands you mention I think only BMW may take part next year at AMA level on a factory basis. The others are going to be busy trying to save their business or competing elsewhere I think (unless the US importers stump up the cash to run the teams of course). Edmondson obviously realises full well that he needs the support of the big factories, Which is why he and his cohorts have gone cap in hand to the west coast just to meet with them this week. However, the major talking point of the meetings seems to be his arrogant attitude rather than any meaningful discussions or decisions. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Trojan, You don't write for superbikeplanet do you? "While the criteria of these meetings isn't known, one can only assume with the way that the 2009 season went that the DMG will enter into the OEM offices, hat in hand, wearing large signs declaring how sorry they are for everything that has transpired." - http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Sep/090915expdelfo ol.htm | ||
| 4cammer |
Not_purple_s2, you made me spit out my Coke Zero. Your post was excellent. | ||
| Trojan |
You don't write for superbikeplanet do you? No but we obviously think alike | ||
| Reepicheep |
Matt said...
Almost, let me fix that for you...
| ||
| Jaimec |
No, he got it right the first time. If someone besides Honda stepped up with a different engine configuration and beat Honda's bid, then it would've been the choice. | ||
| Trojan |
Almost, let me fix that for you... -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: but could offer people the chance to run supersports spec engines from any inline four focused manufacturer in prototype inline four chassis. Moto2 is a 600cc class. If you know of a competitive 600cc Supersport spec engine that is not an inline 4 cylinder please let us know? Triumph doesn't count as it is 675. It wouldn't matter if the chosen engine supplier was Honda, kawasaki, Yamaha or Suzuki, the engine layout would have been exactly the same. There is a very good reason that most sportbike performance engines are IL4 designs. They offer great performance per cc that can be packaged quite small and can be manufactured at reasonable cost. If there was an advantage to a 600 twin or triple then somebody would have done it already. The preferred bidder from the organisers point of view was actually Kawasaki, because they were the only one of the Big 4 that didn't have a MotoGP engine. Unfortunately they decided not to bid for the contract, and Honda were the ONLY bidder. | ||
| Jaimec |
Considering how popular V4s are in MotoGP (with Kawasaki leaving, Yamaha is the ONLY IL4 in the lineup), I'm surprised Honda didn't offer a 600cc V4... or was it supposed to be a production-based engine? | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"Lemonchili: I think it's a PERFECT series for Buell. "Someone else's engine??" Buell doesn't BUILD engines, they source the engine from someone else already (Harley Davidson and Rotax). Buell builds Chassis, and it would be a GREAT showcase for Erik to prove his chassis ideas on the world stage. I doubt it would happen but I'd LOVE to see it. No more stupid arguments over displacement... the only differential between bikes (besides the rider of course) would be the chassis and suspension." "100% agree with Jaimec for this argument." Ok, I see what you guys mean, and it does make sense in some ways, and no doubt Buell would do it differently to anybody else. It's weird to think of a Buell with an IL4, but then again it would make everyone look at Buell differently if they did it. "Spanish organisers have already scrapped their Supersports 600 class for 2010 in favour of a full Moto2 style competition. Their rules may not feature a spec engine like the GP class, but could offer people the chance to run supersports spec engines from any manufacturer in prototype chassis. " Sounds a little like the old Formula 2 rules, don't you think? Sounds good to me | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Superbikes without any of the Jap 'Big 4' will not be Superbikes at all..." If you need factory backing to make a bike a "Superbike" then it was never a superbike in the first place. There will be plenty of Japanese 'Big 4' bikes in the series. Personally I could give a rat's tookus if any of them are factory bikes. In fact I think the racing would be better without any factory bikes. It would allow more teams to be competitive and would result in more ingenuity. G | ||
| Liquorwhere |
There will be plenty of Japanese 'Big 4' bikes in the series. Personally I could give a rat's tookus if any of them are factory bikes. In fact I think the racing would be better without any factory bikes. It would allow more teams to be competitive and would result in more ingenuity. Greg....here we go again...without factory support, R&D, MONEY, marketing, infrastructure, then you have club racing. Maybe the racing is closer there, skills are good, bikes are ok...but it isn't national class or world class racing. I see your point, I think I understand why you feel that way, but it just isn't logical nor is it reality. The characteristics of the new yamaha are much better due to factory based racing and the excellent hire of Jeremy Burgess and Valentino Rossi, Honda was better with those two as well, Kawasaki was amazing when Erv Kanamoto was supported with factory resources, it DOES trickle down from the highest levels of racing to the guy on the street getting a better product that is tested at it's limits at the track. I don't see how the racing would be better with a bunch of privateer's racing and NO factory support or involvement. I just don't see it. | ||
| 46champ |
Matt I don't think you get it when it comes to Motorcycle racing in the USA. Bowing down to the Japanese manufactures for the last thirty years is the reason we have a mess here. If Harley doesn't at least have a chance at winning a MAJORITY of your fan base will not show up. If the Japanese are the only ones winning and are the only ones capable of winning NO ONE COMES. There is a large number of people who will go to a race just to see Harley get beat. They could give a shit less if it is Honda Yamaha BMW Ducati Triumph or any other brand you could think of, they just want to see the evil bike in black from Wisconsin get beat. YES YOU CAN SUBSTITUTE BUELL FOR MOST ANY PLACE I USED HARLEY. THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANY AWARENESS OF RACING KNOW WHO BUELL IS. If you have these items covered in your NATIONAL racing series you will be successful. Your country may be different. To be completely successful your racing series needs something besides Harley just so they can defeat the foreigh invaders. (Message edited by 46champ on September 17, 2009) | ||
| Gregtonn |
Greg....here we go again...without factory support, R&D, MONEY, marketing, infrastructure, then you have club racing. Dale, That is pure unadulterated crap. 1. Factory support for a few teams does nothing but give them an unfair advantage. 2. Thousands of companies are capable of R&D. MotoGP is the correct venue for factory R&D. Superbike is supposed to be based bikes available to the public. 3. The factories are not the only ones with MONEY. 4. I'm not sure if you're talking brand marketing or race marketing. No need to have a motorcycle companies market the races. 5. The race organization, the racetracks and the race teams provide the needed infrastructure. Fact: The Daytona 200 was much more popular and entertaining before the big factory teams took over. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
One more thing. If you want factory involvement Buell did it the right way. Every team racing a Buell had access to what ever help Henry Dugga and the Buell transport team could provide. G | ||
| Fresnobuell |
but later articles proved that there were far more changes between the 1125RR and the 1125R than was allowed by the rules so DMG changed the rules. Where did you find this info? I must have missed it. Please cite the source. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, >>>This class (Moto-2) is set to become THE standard sportsbike class in International and National racing. How are purpose-built racing machines all using the same engine anything close to sportsbikes that we can purchase and ride on the street? Maybe I am misreading your use of "sportsbike"? I think Supersport and Daytona Sport Bike will remain the leading sport bike racing classes the world over. |
