| Author |
Message |
    
Kcbill
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 10:12 pm: | 
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Sam what do you think, we leave Friday after work? |
Shazam
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 09:29 am: |
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that's what I'm thinkin....road trip! supposed to be in the 60-70 degrees with rain this weekend, no problem. don't tell anyone! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:28 pm: |
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On dyno A/F results...
If the tube feeding the O2 sensor is long, would that not shift the A/F curve artificially to th right? For instance if the sniffer takes a half second to transport exhaust from probe to sensor and it takes a half second to accelerate from 4,000 to 5,000 rpm, would winpep not think that the reading corresponding to 4,000 rpm is erroneously for 5,000 rpm? Might be interesting on a bike that shows a variation in A/F to make two different runs, one with the sensor very near the probe and another with the sensor connected to probe via eight or ten feet of tubing. Surely the dynojet people covered this scenario. I can't help but wonder about such things though.  |
Hoser
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 09:41 pm: |
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Blake:
Valid question , kinda makes a guy go hmm ? . I assume you know why the tube is so long , the end must be positioned as far upstream as possible of any air leaks . An air leak , such as anywhere a connection exists , like where the muffler slips on , or on FL's , the rear exhaust is a "Y" connection which joins with the front pipe down near the transmission , it also exits the rear port and then up , over and down on the left side , a huge ! air leak at low RPM and on decceleration. Positioning the "sniffer" far enough up the exhaust pipe so that air leaks don't mess with measurements can be a challenge on some systems.
I can not answer your question right now , sorry.
J.D.H. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 11:17 pm: |
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Jeff,
The distance that the probe is inserted into the muffler is not the major length factor in the setups I've seen. Most have a fairly lengthy tube connecting the probe to the sensor. The ones I've seen have a fairly short probe, maybe 18 inches long. Anyway, it would be interesting to know if Dynojet has any information on that issue. Of course, I've only seen four or five dynos in my life that had the sniffer setup. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 08:47 am: |
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Something I've noticed is when the tube ingests some fiberglass packing, it introduces a huge delay into the sniffer's results. When I see it responding slowly I know it's getting plugged up. Also there's a filter on the unit, it's cleanliness is also a factor I'm sure. |
Redstripe
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 06:22 am: |
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Great stuff, guys. Let's just hope HCHD decides to spend a little more, so We'll be able to know what can be made with the FI sorted.
-so Bud can buy the kit and finally be quicker than me- 
Jilles. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:14 pm: |
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What a gap between those curves! Other than modifying the manifold to accept larger injectors, would a larger capacity airbox help to get past 100? I seem to remember Aprilia waxed a bike for public consumption because of that. Maybe the Hal's fairing/airbox combo would do the trick? |
Gonracin
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 07:00 pm: |
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can anyone tell me, (maybe aaron for sure) if the xb head will in fact work on the older buell 1200.. and would anyone have casting munbers from a xb head..thanks |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:20 pm: |
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Speaking of XB heads...someone needs to post a pic of what those look like. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:33 pm: |
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Yes, they go on. You have to drill and tap the breather holes, but the bosses are there. Even if you use the XB rocker box tops you need to drill and tap those holes so you can bolt-up your carb mount bracket.
You need to be aware that as delivered, it's a small bathtub chamber, 62cc if memory serves. The XB piston uses a dome to get to 10:1 but remember that's a smaller engine. At 1200cc a flat top gets you 10:1. If you want more compression than that, you've either got to mill the head or use a piston with a bathtub compatible dome. Or you can use a piston with a conventional dome if you cut the chamber. That route has certain advantages IMO.
We've delivered several sets of these heads in 1200 and even bigger applications. We've cut the chambers on some and done the big valve treatment and used angle dome pistons. My M2 will be getting that setup shortly too. |
Gonracin
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:36 pm: |
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go to nallin's web site. and look at the catalog, the one you download and you can see what the chamber looks like. from a brief look they look the same as a buell 1200 head... |
Gonracin
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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arron... can you answer another question... does the 3 13/16 xb piston in your big bore kit.. does it have the same wrist pin height as a sportster or buell piston..other words would it work or not... and if so that would be a great combo in a 88in kit for drag racing....thanks |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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There's a pic under "Headwork - XL/Buell" as well ...
 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 10:04 pm: |
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Yes, the XB piston has the same pin height as the 3-13/16 stroke motors.
Even a flat top on an 88 inch motor under that head would yield a LOT of compression, though. It's only a 62cc chamber. |
Gonracin
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 10:39 pm: |
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aaron.. when you say you've done the big valve treatment... how big of valves can you go? and what kind of flow can you get from that head?. or is it the same as a t-storm just a different chamber..thanks |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 10:46 pm: |
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We've done 1.900 intakes and 1.630 exhausts, not necessarily together though. Valve size selection depends on a bunch of things, like the cams being used, the bore & stroke of the motor, what else is being done in the chamber, etc.
No, it's not just the chamber that's different on these heads, the ports are totally different from a Thunderstorm as well. I'd rather not go into flow numbers  . Let's just say lots more than stock. But any head porter worth the aluminum shavings in his ears will tell you flow numbers are just one of many things to consider. There's lots more to it than that. |
S2carl
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:12 pm: |
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Aaron,
You bring up an interesting point. In your opinion, what power gains would one expect with a set of XB heads on a S2 motor w/ flat top pistons? Having flat top pistons already, it would seem like an easy and perhaps decent way to go. I realize that it is not the best way (Nallin heads, hurricanes, perhaps a 1250 kit) but money is tight. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:22 pm: |
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Well, you'd get a compression bump from 9:1 up to 10:1, and you'd get a better port design and bigger valves and a real squish band. So yeah, I'd expect them to work better. But those heads are like any other factory casting, there's lots of room for improvement
They only come in silver so you'd probably want to paint'em, and possibly highlight the fins to match the S2 cylinders. |
S2carl
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:33 pm: |
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Aaron,
Thanks. Of course I'd love to "improve" them, but funds are limited. Do you feel that they would approach the performance of factory Tstorm heads and pistons?
Carl |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:54 am: |
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Hey Aaron,
Have you got any dyno charts of the XBs with the 1050cc kit?
Thanks,
Mike L.
'99 Cyclone |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 04:57 pm: |
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2003 XB12R owned by a valued NRHS customer
NRHS 1200 kit
NRHS Stage 3 heads
Bored throttle body
Dynojet Power Commander 3 w/ high performance O2 sensor
Red Shift 585 cams
NRHS Signature Series exhaust system
Note that this is ONE pull. We still gotta tune it up, it was way fat especially on the bottom (that's what all that roughness is). |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 05:02 pm: |
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Hey Arron with XB heads and flat top pistons it would be 10:1 on a tube frame??
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Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 05:11 pm: |
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Carl, Mike, I didn't mean to ignore you. I burn the candle at both ends anymore and there's lots of stuff on here that I miss.
Carl, I hate to speculate about the results of experiments I haven't run. Seems like every time I do that, the dyno makes a liar out of me. The limited info I have available to me suggests the answer is yes. But I don't have hard data that I collected myself.
Mike, there are lots and lots of things in a motor that interact and work together. I like Ron D's way of looking at it, the performance of the motor is not defined by the parts you put in it, it's defined by the level of the part that's holding it back. With that in mind, keep in mind what the 1050 kit is: a 4% increase in displacement with some other benefits in the form of straightness and resultant ring seal as well as longevity, reduced friction, and better heat dissipation. If displacement and ring seal are limiting the existing motor then you'll see a substantial improvement form the 1050 kit. If those things aren't the constraint, and say for example the breathing is the constraint instead, the 1050 kit will do nothing for you.
What I'm getting around to is that the 1050 kit (or 1250 kit or 98" Twin Cam kit for that matter) is almost never done to a motor by itself, without associated improvements in other areas, and honestly, it's benefits are going to be limited if you do it by itself. Not that there won't be any benefits, but the 1050 kit is a component of a system. Your power is going to be defined by the component of the system that's holding it back. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 05:12 pm: |
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Spidey: yes, it's got a 62cc chamber just like a Lightning head. A flat top 3.5" bore piston with a 3-13/16 stroke (i.e. a 1200 tuber) will land you at about 10:1. |
Bud
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 06:09 pm: |
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That’s a very nice dyno, aaron,
Nice 3 digit’s & flat tq.
No check engine light on ?? I presume,
Bugger,
have to wait till next winter.
gr, m
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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 06:25 pm: |
|
 That's a thing of beauty Aaron.
The thought of an XB12S like that, with the bottom smoothed out a little, makes me absolutely giddy. 70+ foot pounds of torque from 3800 rpm on up? Jeepers.
So whats the approximate package cost (parts and labor) for an upgrade like that to a stock XB9S? I understand it's a moving target, just +/- 20% would be fine.
That bike is going to leave some inline four 600cc riders absolutely dumbfounded. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 07:05 pm: |
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Bud: no check engine light. High Country hasn't had any issue with the check engine light on their XB12S either, far as I know.
Bill: yeah, it's amazing what 100hp or so does to these little 250 sized bikes. We haven't ridden this one, but High Country's 96hp XB12S is an absolute hoot, a total unicycle every time you give it gas. Just feels like a high powered feather, and that's up here at 5300' where we're down 20% on power. It'd be a dangerous bike at sea level! I imagine this one is much of the same, it's got the lower bars but it also has 11 more hp.
Cost? Aw, jeez, I dunno, not really my end of the business. If you follow those links you can get the prices of the components. Labor, well, much depends on how much a person does himself. I believe we're getting about 12hours shop time to disassemble and reassemble the motor. Hey, we check and adjust everything, it's a time consuming thing. But you just can't take anything for granted, tolerances that are designed into these motors to allow production variations go out the window when you start pushing things. And vendors make mistakes, too. We've recently found 2 sets of cams, from 2 different vendors, each with messed up timing on ONE lobe. And worse, on both sets, the timing was off in a direction that compromised valve to valve and valve to piston clearance! A disaster looking for a place to happen.
But I digress, the point is I'd rather do it right and charge 12 hours than do it in 9 or 10 and deal with rework. On top of that, add time for R&Ring the motor, plus the machine work, plus the tune-up at the end.
If you want to call Justin, I'm sure he'd be happy to work up a precise quote for you. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 08:35 pm: |
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Why 7500 rpm? Won't the shorter stroke take more? |
Shotgun
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 09:21 pm: |
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Justin, we all want that ballpark. Please, please, please???? |
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