| Author | Message | ||
     Gentleman_jon |
I was deeply gratified to see Slick win the Daytona Superbike, but considering that his bike appeared to be about the same speed as the modified 600's he was running against, I did not have much hope for the 1125RR in Superbike, running against some very experienced, factory teams with very fast motorcycles. Now I suspect that this motor was designed from the git-go as a very high revving race type motor, and that the production version has been detuned for the street. Pit scuttlebutt, for all it is worth,suggest that these engines are turning 15,000 rpm. I did notice that they seem to have a different radiator system with the radiators facing forward, one small one on each side. Any one have more details of what is going on here? | ||
| Ebear |
15,000 Rpm...with two coffee can size pistons?  Don't STAND near THAT thing! | ||
| Davegess |
The RR superbike will make a whole lot more power that the R Danny is riding. Three top tens in the first real weekend of racign is nothing to laugh at. I can wait till next year. | ||
| Avc8130 |
As a comparison point: The spread from 125s to GP bikes at the Indy GP this year was only 9 seconds/lap. This is on 1:40 laps for the GPs. A track like Thunderbolt really likes corner speed. For superbikes most of the guys were running the whole first section in 1st or 2nd gear. I did notice the RRs were upshifting mid corner on the Devils Tail, where the I4s were just ringing them out. You could watch Danny and see he was fighting harder than the I4 guys on this track as the "big Buell" was definitely harder to throw around than the 600s. This weight "disadvantage" is not as big with the 1000 i4s. ac | ||
| Court |
>>>Don't STAND near THAT thing! . . . lest they whirly parts seek communion with the sun . . . | ||
| Court |
>>>The RR superbike will make a whole lot more power that the R Danny is riding. Actually . . . it will, and has in various configurations, make a LOT more power. Be mindful that if Danny grenaded a motor in DSB, you could walk into a local dealer, take a motor and essentially be back in business. Other than a close looking over the motor is bone stock save the ECM and pipe. It was fun to watch him wheelie into the turn in front of us. . . . he rides with gusto! | ||
| Hughlysses |
How do the typical lap times compare in DSB and Superbike? That would tell us a lot. It's interesting that Shawn Higbee, essentially running the same bike in both series (a DSB-spec 1125R, right?) typically finishes about the same place in both series (~15th-20th). | ||
| Avc8130 |
On Thunderbolt at NJMP Superbike: 1:21 Sportbike: 1:23 ac (Message edited by avc8130 on September 08, 2009) | ||
| Puzzled |
It is my understanding from speaking with Dave (Knapps crew chief and crew chief for Erik's team this weekend) and with Mr. Buell himself that the RR was simply lightened to spin faster and add RPM . From what I was told the difference is in the flywheels (lightened R flywheels), Titanium valves (would assume better springs and keepers also), better rods (no info on them) and rod bolts, slightly more compression, (I'm sure there is more!). This adds 1500 RPM to the 10800ish the stock bikes currently spin. Again it is my understanding that this could be duplicated sans the rods (the bolts are a must). | ||
| Puzzled |
Superbike runs slicks, Sportbike runs spec DOT tires, for what it is worth, if anything! | ||
| Blake |
I agree, not a real high speed track. The RR is able to have custom head porting and other performance enhancements, including increased RPM and tuning that will allow it to make significantly more power than its 1125R brother. But it probably still has a ways to go to catch the IL4's in peak HP and also in a race at a high speed track. Fun stuff to watch. | ||
| Jimidan |
The gentleman from Jon sez: Now I suspect that this motor was designed from the git-go as a very high revving race type motor, and that the production version has been detuned for the street. I doubt it, as if the engine had been designed from the git-go as a race motor, it would have been 1200 cc. Nope, it appears that this motor (and bike) were designed for the street, as advertised. Just look also at the ergonomics...definitely street, as opposed to the 600's which are all race bikes with lights on them. Just imagine how good of a racebike EB and Co. could design if they put their minds to it! And why not...taking a page out of the Ducati "R" race plan book would not be that tough. Make the RR a special "streetbike" run with lights and street exhaust, available on an internet auction of the min, bikes to achieve homologation rules. Shucks, it is superbike racing. | ||
| Dentguy |
Just look also at the ergonomics...definitely street, as opposed to the 600's which are all race bikes with lights on them. Every time I hear that it makes me laugh. They are street legal street bikes (as advertised), just like the 1125R. Maybe the ergos are different (like many bikes), but that doesn't make them race bikes with lights. The Uly has ergos similar to a MX bike, but that doesn't make it one. When the 1125R started racing in DSB class, there was so much talk (and still is) about how the bike is basically stock except for a ECU, exhaust, a few other things and no lights. Surely, less modifications than a 600 in the same class. Wouldn't that make the 1125R more of a "race bike with lights" from the factory, since it is so competitive while being basically stock? Just saying....They are street bikes. All of them. Just imagine how good of a racebike EB and Co. could design if they put their minds to it! Didn't they just design a racebike for the Superbike class called the 1125RR? | ||
| Avc8130 |
Are you sure the 600s are allowed more mods? ac | ||
| Dentguy |
Are you sure the 600s are allowed more mods? I didn't say that. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The factory 600s have ALOT more money to spend on their motors. They aren't allowed more mods, but you can bet they have perfect parts. They are as trick as the rules allow. If the 1125r motor was built like the factory 600s, people WOULD have a legit gripe against the Buell. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I didn't say that. Surely, less modifications than a 600 in the same class.  ac | ||
| Dentguy |
ac, Let me try and explain. I didn't say that the 600's are allowed more mods. They aren't, but there is a different minimum weight for the 2,3 and 4 cylinder bikes. I did say " Surely, less modifications than a 600 in the same class." in reference to the point I was making about the Buell being competitive with a stock engine while racing against modified engines on the 600's. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Dentguy, I am still confused. I checked the rules and it didn't appear to me that the 600s were allowed more engine mods. You keep saying "modified engines on the 600s". I don't think they have higher than stock compression, different cams, or anything like that. Neither do the Buells. From the rules it looks like the engines are pretty much "stock". Fuel systems get some mods, exhausts are changed, air filters are different (but air boxes are stock). The minimum weights are supposed to be proportional to horsepower produced. I believe the intent was to keep power/weight ratios even. ac | ||
| Dentguy |
Alright ac, Let me try again. I did not say the 600's were allowed more mods. Not sure how we got there? The 600's are not allowed more mods, as you and I know per the rules. Hopefully we are still on the same page. There are some things that can be done. Here are some of them. The cylinder head, cylinder and crankcase gasket surfaces only may be machined for increased compression. Head gaskets may be changed. Valve seats may be machined. Cam timing other than stock is allowed. Crankshafts may be balanced with some restrictions. Crankshaft bearing surfaces may be polished or surface treated. All per the rules. As Fresnobuell said, "you can bet they have perfect parts". Keeping those last few things in mind, you can be fairly sure that the engines on the 600's I'm referring to (the big name teams) Have been gone through with a fine tooth comb, have all the best allowable parts and are messaged in any way possible within the rules to get the most power out of them. I don't know that for a fact, I'm only assuming and don't have a problem with it. A stock 600 can't touch a stock 1125R in my opinion. The Buell engine on the other hand (as stated on this site by good sources, at least at the time), is all stock, from the factory and has never been dug into at all. I think the statement may have been that the seals have never been broken. We are not even near my original post about bikes being referred to as a race bike with lights on them, but I hope you understand my statements now. If not, that's the best I can do. Thanks. (Message edited by dentguy on September 10, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Do the factory teams get engines built in Japan by the race divisions? I want to say yes, but am not sure. | ||
| Dsmcg |
The championship winning DSB machines were prepared by some of the top mechanics in the sport - employed by RMR. Their track record speaks volumes. The American Superbike machines raced at Ohio & NJ were prepared by the Buell race shop. These are customer spec 1125RR's. Both are ridden by three of the top up-and-coming racers in the states. This fact must not be overlooked. Having said that, journalists have now sampled both the DSB and Superbike specification 1125's on track and comment the packages are both drivable and well balanced - important requirements when building consumer base motorcycles or racebikes. We strive to maintain these core 1125R strengths. The top line Dunlop slicks are outstanding tires. The Dunlop spec DOT tires used in DSB, Supersport, and Moto GT are a work in progress. Compare Higbee's lap times back to back on the same machine and you typically see at least 1 - 2 seconds per lap improvement with the slicks. (depending on track) The 1125RR makes more power, is lighter, and can take advantage of the superior grip offered by the slicks. MOST sportbike chassis tie themselves up in knots when you mount up slicks. The 1125 chassis hasn't even flinched. Current DSB 1125R revs to 11,000 rpm Current 1125RR revs to 12,000. It does not rev to 15,000 rpm - put down the crack pipe. Taylor's best lap on DSB = 1:24.1 Qualifying Taylor's best lap on the RR = 1:21.7 Sunday practice The race track in New Jersey is a great venue to showcase the handling prowess of the chassis. We are working very hard to provide our riders with a more competitive platform to be in the hunt country wide. Early days yet. Stay tuned. DSMcG | ||
| Doerman |
Thanks for the informative update, Dave. I'm waiting with baited breath what is going to happen next year with the RR. This year has been a great teaser. Next year, I know you guys will knock the cover off! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool! Thanks for sharing all that information, great stuff! | ||
| Reepicheep |
 In other words... the 1125RR will rev to 15,000 RPM. Once.  | ||
| Smoke |
Good Luck next year Dave! tim | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Sorry for the mis-statement. I can only guess that I was told it revs 1500 rpm higher than stock, and I heard it as 15,000 rpm. That makes a bit more sense. In any event, 12,000 rpm is very good for a 1125cc Vee Twin, and the bike is amazingly fast, no doubt about that, is there? | ||
| Elvis |
I wouldn't be surprised if some people . . . like the idiots at Superbikeplanet, think it is revving to 15,000. After all, according to them it's an exotic, Moto-GP spec. bike that Buell is selling at a loss. Great info Dave! Thanks for sharing. | ||
| Fuzzz |
"Stay tuned. " Looking forward to all you are willing and able to share...Thanks! | ||
| Fast2win |
Dent guy, you hit the nail on the head. Most people don't seem to realize how much diff. that can make. You only need to look and compare last year's 600 ss class leader time's and compare to fx 600cc time's to see that what was supposed to be a stock 600cc bike was at times faster than a fx bike. go figure. Thats why in my opinion DMG has done a good job of putting 600cc back to real stock,(untouched motors) internally, and making the daytona sportbike class mor open to the avail. bike on the street that on paper have similar power to weight. |
