| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
'Cause Europe has a whole differnet take on rist than America does. I find it odd that America, the land founded and made prosperous by risk takers has less public tolerance for risk than socialistic Europe. One would think it would be the reverse. I remember walking in th eWicklow moutains of Ireland and encountering a big sign that gave you the death toll on this route and warned you to watch the weather. No guard rails or closures just "climb at your own risk". | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Are Europeans free to sue for negligent homicide? Apparently not. So good or bad, maybe it's a question of overall freedom. I'm not so sure your characterization is accurate in general though either. For instance, there are certainly plenty of roads in America that are treacherous and without guard rails. | ||
| Blake |
And again. Strange to me that I have to keep repeating this. I'm not advocating against allowing folks to race as they wish, where they wish. What I am opposed to is the commercialization and exploitation for profit of such deadly events. And what I'd like to see is a safer race. I sure do appreciate Alessio's comments. I think it's ridiculous that some goofy macho sense of glory be associated with racing in ridiculously dangerous venues. That in itself is part of the overzealous marketing that I'm talking about. I don't want to speak for him, but I got the distinct sense from our 15 minute conversation that Mr. Ulrich is not a big supporter of that mentality either. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
After reading some of the letters posted on that link I think you have touched a nerve with a needle Blake. In one in particular the man was eloquent but pointed out what offended him most was names on a list posted to prove a point without truly knowing the story behind those names....I kind of agree with him. Blake I know you don't like the race, you have made that clear, but I am baffled at your "petition" to try and stop people from exercising their free will to race or not, live and die how they please. I find so many of your posts to encourage personal freedom and responsibility yet you would try in intervene and try to get a petition to stop a race that people have to consent to do.....you lost me there Blake. I know you are not a nanny state type of guy, but I think your logic has failed you on this one. I am happy that you care about those that race and are saddened by those that die, but I think it is time to give up the fight on this one. You asked Greg I think to answer the question of how many people have to die before he would find the race unacceptable. I will answer that for ME, as many as want to keep racing. I find that race to be a mystical jewel of the old days that, IMHO should be preserved. I don't think you have made a compelling argument for the stoppage of this race, nor have you brought on sufficient ties to exploitation in the form of profiting from the death of those that lost their lives there as I have never seen, and I looked to try and find it, a clip of someone that died in a crash at the Isle. I respectfully disagree with your points and find it out of what I find as your normal character in the letter and statements I have read in this thread. Good weekend to you, enjoy the MotoGP from Indy, it should be a sweet race. | ||
| Blake |
I am baffled at your "petition" to try and stop people from exercising their free will to race or not, live and die how they please. You are confused. I petitioned no such thing. | ||
| Blake |
"without truly knowing the story behind those names" What else is there to know. They died as a direct result of the motorcycle racing. Ten of them in 2005. "I find so many of your posts to encourage personal freedom and responsibility yet you would try in intervene and try to get a petition to stop a race that people have to consent to do" Again, you are confused. You no read good. Or you don't care to actually consider my point of view. Look just three posts up or in many other posts I've made here. | ||
| Blake |
"You asked Greg I think to answer the question of how many people have to die before he would find the race unacceptable. I will answer that for ME, as many as want to keep racing." That's not an answer. If they are dead, they cannot race. Your answer is apparently that they could all be killed, hundreds of fatalities, but as long as the Isle could find more willing participants, let it roll. No? "I find that race to be a mystical jewel of the old days that, IMHO should be preserved." Fine, then get rid of the commercial exploitation of it for profit. Nothing "mystical" about that. Nothing mystical about the race or the venue either. When ten people are killed as a direct result of the motorcycle racing there in one year, that is not mystical, it is tragedy. I don't think you have made a compelling argument for the stoppage of this race Good, on account of that is neither my intent, my goal, or my desire. "nor have you brought on sufficient ties to exploitation in the form of profiting from the death of those that lost their lives there as I have never seen, and I looked to try and find it, a clip of someone that died in a crash at the Isle." Again you misunderstand. The promoters and profiteers are gaining profit from a race that kills, not from the actual deaths in living color. I respectfully disagree with your points and find it out of what I find as your normal character in the letter and statements I have read in this thread. Based on what I've seen of your gross misunderstanding of my views--maybe I expressed them poorly--I can understand why. "Good weekend to you, enjoy the MotoGP from Indy, it should be a sweet race." Thanks, you too. I sure hope it stays dry up there! Go Colin! Go Nicky! | ||
| Davegess |
Blake I think you misunderstand the reason behind promotion. The people of the isle of Man and the racers who compete there as well as the spectators feel quite strongly that the race should continue. it simply cannot continue if they do not have any money. How does one get money? You can ask spectators and locals for donations, you can tax the locals and visitors and they do that BUT in this modern world you cannot just sit still. You need new amenities, new safety features new things the public wants and is willing to pay for. Some things must be sold to pay for this event. When you sell tihgs some people are going to make money. What is the theshold? Answer this, how many motorcycle racing deaths are too many? How much profit is too much? MC racers die here each year at events conducted for profit. Where do you draw the line? | ||
| Slaughter |
Hey, nobody lives forever. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Again, you are confused. You no read good. Or you don't care to actually consider my point of view. Look just three posts up or in many other posts I've made here. A petition is available at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Isle_of_Man_Isl e_of_Death/ to help give a voice to this concern. Blake, I read your letter, I have tried to read every post on this thread, yours and others, and I do consider your point of view. But if you are not interested in petitioning to stop the race, then what, pray tell, is the purpose of the petition included in your letter to road racing world? My friend, people don't petition, on average, just to get their opinion heard, it is to either stop or start an action. So please, I do read quite well, explain to me the purpose of your petition, if it is in fact not to halt the race. If you want the race to not profit from anyone that may die, but you concede it is the rider's choice and freedom to do so that should be protected, then my friend you have said you wish the race to stop, but don't stop it??? I am lost in your logic Blake, on this one, lost. You criticize those that promote it and show coverage of it, you feel that those killed were enticed to do so for money or fame, not possibly of their desire to just race the hell of an amazing course, you start a petition to voice your concern over "the isle of bloody carnage" yet you post that you do not wish to stop the race. Please clarify for me the reason then for the petition?? That's not an answer. If they are dead, they cannot race. Your answer is apparently that they could all be killed, hundreds of fatalities, but as long as the Isle could find more willing participants, let it roll. No? Yes, as long as those wish to participate, then let those choose of their own free will to race that course with the knowledge they may die. If they choose not to race the course, then don't. It is up to each man or woman to decide how they want to live or not live. "I've lived more in five minutes flat out on my bike, then some men live in a lifetime" Anthony Hopkins playing Burt Monro in World's fastest Indian I do try and see your point of view Blake, but I just don't think it is a sound position, you either want the race to stop or you don't. Which is it? | ||
| Liquorwhere |
What else is there to know. They died as a direct result of the motorcycle racing. Ten of them in 2005. It is a good thing you didn't include that statement in your letter, I believe if you did the rebuttals against you would've been more ravenous than a pack of wolves. I find it interesting that you are so concerned about the NUMBER of people that died, yet unconcerned about WHO those people were and why they risked and lost their lives for what they LOVED to do. Blake, it makes me question your sincerity to this particular cause. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Dale, You and I have had some disagreements but you have nailed it on this subject. G | ||
| Blake |
My focus is not on the individuals. How could I possibly hope to address them? I assume they were all quality folk. The list of the fatalities is presented to support the case against commercial exploitation of the event. My focus, again, is to oppose the exploitation of the event for commercial gain, profit. That's all. | ||
| Trojan |
My focus, again, is to oppose the exploitation of the event for commercial gain, profit. If that was the case you would be writing to the owners of Monza, Spa-Francochamps, Nurburgring, Hockeheim, Silverstone, Brands Hatch, Suzuka and every other 'classic' circuit that has seen their fair share of tragic events over the years. The fact is that you have got hold of a limited amount of information about an event that you know little about and have decided to make it a personal crusade. One thing is for sure. It will take more than a couple of letters to Roadracing world to stop the best supported and best atended road racing event in the world. | ||
| Blake |
None of those venues remotely approach the record of motorcycle racing related tragedy that the IOM has achieved. I'm not aware of any major promotional efforts or television broadcast deals for them either. My information is limited only to that which is pertinent to the issue. It is accurate and it tells a story that is very, very sad. You're stuck on a misunderstanding Matt. How many times do I have to state that I am NOT trying to end the event? Again, for what seems like the hundredth time... My only objection is against the commercial exploitation of the event. Period. I've said that from the start. (Message edited by blake on September 01, 2009) | ||
| Davegess |
Again Blake, how many deatshs are acceptable and how much profit is acceptable? Folks die from football every year. Define what is acceptable adn what is not. | ||
| Slaughter |
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Isle_of_Man_Isl e_of_Death/ HUH? Kinda like lobbying to end Congressional funding for the Military in Afghanistan but claiming you're "not against the war" just against "Sponsoring" the war. I'm so confused | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Already asked and answered. I'd think that if moto-racing related fatalities dropped to no more than one every other year at IOM, I'd be okay with it. That is just for me mind you. Others would have to make up their own mind. Conversely, how many would be too many for you? "Folks die from football every year"  What? I don't recall a single death "from football", ever. Where do you get this stuff? Even if true, Professional football players are very well compensated, all of them, not just the MVPs. But that is aside from the point anyway, another invalid analogy. I'm not indicting the entirety of motorcycle racing or even motorcycle real road racing. I'm only indicting the IOM and their efforts to promote and profit along with the television broadcasters. Steve, My words could have been formulated less stupidly, but my comment in that pole, "As a motorcycle racer or racing fan I protest the exploitation of such a horrendously dangerous event by anyone, but especially by greedy people out to make a profit." is the crux of it for me with emphasis on "exploitation". (Message edited by blake on September 01, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
How did they run the even before it was so popular? How do they run the ManxGP there? Somehow without major commercialization it runs/ran just fine. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, I could support promotion of the event if I knew that all the money was going to the racers and/or safety improvements to the course, if the hotels and motels don't raise their rates during the events. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
"Folks die from football every year" What? I don't recall a single death "from football", ever. Where do you get this stuff? Even if true, Professional football players are very well compensated, all of them, not just the MVPs. Kory Stringer, Daryl Stingly (paralyzed by the Hammer, then died of complications later), Mike Webster and Terry Long, both diagnosed with severe brain damage from concussions and both committed suicide, a case could be made that football contributed. And how does their compensation relative to the IOM? The CBA with respect Pro Football guarantees 58% of gross revenues are distributed to players, we have no idea the percentage of gross revenues from the IOM are distributed to the riders. But that is aside from the point anyway, another invalid analogy. I'm not indicting the entirety of motorcycle racing or even motorcycle real road racing. I'm only indicting the IOM and their efforts to promote and profit along with the television broadcasters. With all due respect it is a very sound analogy, as both are professional athletes that participate of their own accord in dangerous sports for money. One could be killed or maimed in either case, I would argue football, as much as I like it and played it, has left behind more carnage than the IOM. Hands down..... Not to be a pest, but I was wondering, still...what the petition is for? Where do you intend to send it? To the promoters, the riders, the residents of the Isle, and what would be your "end game" with that petition. Nicky got a podium, so you may have graced him with some luck!! Colin looked tough but just didn't seem to have the mojo, but good result either way...how about Pedrosa?? Mad respect to that little guy. | ||
| Davegess |
football deaths http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92626&page=1 11 so far this year. Blake you seem to think that large profits are being made by innkeepers and the like form the TT. I fnayone is making real money it is retire GP rider Geoff Duke of Duke Marketing who sells all the videos. The innkeepers are just getting by. I of course have experience with exactly one guy whom I stayed with twice, but if he was not full during TT week and close to it for practice week at the slightly higher rates, and I found them very reasonable for this type of event, he would not be in business. With out these mom and pop type joints there would be no place to stay so few spectators would come over. The TT is part of the fabric of Manx life. It is there for the same reason they don't have speed limits, they welcome internet gambling companies and international private banks, they enjoy saying "we are Manxmen and we do what we want, the hell with you all". The TT was dying and the people of Manx said they didn't want it to die how do we keep it going. In this day and age you do that with marketing and promotion. Large sums are expended to make the place safer, roads are smoothed, airfences have been purchased, top notch medical care is minutes away. All this is possible because they make money off the dam thing. I don't know how many deaths is too many, certainly 10 was over the top and that is unusual. Less than 3 is the average. BTW more visitors die in MC crashes during the TT than racers do. Seems to be at least 3-4 if not more a year. | ||
| Blake |
Y'all are really grasping at straws trying to compare a single venue for motorcycle racing with the entirely of football, in America. It's ludicrous. You might as well compare walking across the street. You said it Dave. The TT was dying but the IOM didn't want it to disappear. Gee, I wonder why? | ||
| Davegess |
BECAUSE THEY ARE ARE MONEY GRUBBING DEATH MONGERS THE ISLE WOULD DRY UP AND BLOW AWAY WITHOUT IT. They are all going to hell 'cause they lure unsuspecting young men to their deaths for profit. They simply do not do this. You are insulting some very fine people, not that they much care. Blake you can get off your high horse, it is dangerous and everyone does it 'cause they love it just like mountain climbers, last time I checked you could take a for profit expedition to the top of Everest, these are advertised and promoted for PROFIT. I am not comparing football just saying it is also dangerous and promoted for much larger profits than the tiny amount the TT brings in. Long live real road racing were very brave people challenge death and usually win. WE need more folks like this not less. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Bring up guns again! That's a perfect straw man argument. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Y'all are really grasping at straws trying to compare a single venue for motorcycle racing with the entirely of football, in America. It's ludicrous. You might as well compare walking across the street. You wrote that you knew of no football deaths, they are shown to you now. The real question, and I am just patiently waiting is what was the petition for Blake? Who was it for? What was your final wish for your petition if it is not as you write repeatedly, to try and stop a race at the Isle? Well?? | ||
| Gregtonn |
Kremmling Colorado Lightning Case of 19 June 2004 19 Golfers struck by Lightning while participating in the Kremmling Cliff Classic Golf Tournament Good Lord! Imagine the carnage! The course should be nuked and the sport banned! Anyone who promotes the sport should be hung in the town square and buried in an unmarked grave! G | ||
| Blake |
Dave, "WE need more folks like this not less." Why? I really don't care one way or another, but why do we need more people who are willing to seriously jeopardize their lives for a thrill or mere sporting competition? At what point does it become reckless? Again, not my issue. Dale, You no read good. The intent of the petition is to remove support for the commercialization of the motorcycle racing at IOM. In other words, make it just like any other club race where the participants are there for one and only one reason, the joy of competitive motorcycle racing, not to help others earn a profit. | ||
| Blake |
In more basic terms, the intent is to express the distaste for their commercialization to the IOM folks, to the television and movie folks, and to document via signatory participation that some moto enthusiasts are committed to not supporting the commercialization of the race, meaning not watching the TV broadcasts, or the movies, and not visiting the place. | ||
| Blake |
Kremmling Colorado Lightning Case of 19 June 2004 19 Golfers struck by Lightning while participating in the Kremmling Cliff Classic Golf Tournament Good Lord! Imagine the carnage! The course should be nuked and the sport banned! Anyone who promotes the sport should be hung in the town square and buried in an unmarked grave! What you may not know is that all 19 were avid supporters of televised IOM motorcycle racing. |
