| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
I am pulling things apart tonight to reassemble after replacing my oil drive gear, and upon inspecting the cams I found this. /image{bad cam} This is extreme macro, with lighting to maximize the pit and scuff. It does not look nearly that bad in person, but obviously it ain't good. So TELL ME TONIGHT if I should stop assembly and replace the cam before I put things back together. Otherwise, I will probably just slap it back in and let it run. I figure it will hold together, but eventually chew up the roller on that cam... or maybe not. Maybe it will just stay like that for the next 20k miles until I do a full rebuild anyway. Thanks, I will come back in from the garage and check before I cross the point of no return on reassembly. I can probably get a new cam, but will have to drive a couple hours to get it. Bill (cell phone 513-300-5630 if you really want to reach me)... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Drat. Here is the image. Trying to talk and post at the same time   | ||
| Pammy |
New cam and new lifters are in order. Maybe the new style retaining pins for the lifters as well. Yikes! | ||
| Hoser |
It's Toast !!! , the lifter too , I don't need to see it to know. | ||
| Rempss |
Bill, What does the lifer roller look like? Has the cam abused it at all? Is that a "groove" in the lobe off to the right side of the picture? If so does it remain all the way around? I have seen this question and almost the exact same picture posted here before, but do not remember the outcome. Hard call to make. Jeff | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
Check the roller on the lifter for damage as well. That don't look good and I would replace if I were you. Anyone else out there throw in their two cents worth. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The roller feels perfect. It looks to me like a manufacturing defect in the cam that then allowed the chrome plating to come off. But I don't really know anything about this stuff, so take that opinion with a grain of salt. I assume I can replace just that cam with the stock part. I will carefully inspect the roller for damage... wonder how hard they are to get out (I will look it up in the service manual, which will also explain what Pammy meant by the new style retaining pins). Besides, getting those rocker boxes off is taking forever... so that thing is not going back in tonight. I have to travel to Milwaukee on business next week... Surely some dealer between Cincinnati and Milwaukee stocks the parts I will need. This was supposed to be the easy job! The transmission work I have to do was supposed to be the hard one. Oh well. It's fun, and the parts are refreshingly cheap, it's all part of the experience. The oil drive gear was not actually in that bad a shape, though I feel a little better replacing it. For what is approaching a minor engine teardown and rebuild, this is actually not that hard and not that expensive. Thanks everybody, you rock. With this board and these resources, this is fun. Without it, it would not be possible... I wonder who else's most important tool in the toolbox is a digital camera and broadband connection  Bill | ||
| Rempss |
Bill, From the look of that I'd bet these are case hardened parts. In case hardening the metal is heat treated to a very hard outer surface but right below that is soft metal once exposed. This process is used to provide for easy and quick machining of metals that then must have a wear resistant surface and remain strong internally. If not applied properly it can remain soft or become very brittle (probably the case here ***my speculation***), or if removed by mechanical means (this happens to quite a few firearms parts by novice gunsmiths) the metal will wear quickly and need to be replaced. I don't know that I would definitely write off the lifter (except that it is cheap insurance) if case hardening is the process used on the cam and roller. It's a personal call based on what you see up close. To get the lifters out you need to remove the pushrod tube and the hex cap screw in the side of the case right below the tube, then it lifts right out with a bent pick or paper clip. I think 2000+ models have the new style retaining "pins". In the older models the screws just hold a cover that keeps actual pins in place to keep the lifters from turning in the bore they are only held on one side by the cases the inside end floats free. In 2000+ (again I think) a hex cap screw with a pin machined on the end was added that is long enough to reach across the lifter bore and be held by the cases on both ends. These screws can be retrofit into the older motors or Zippers sells longer pins to fix the problem as well. Good luck. Jeff | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Jeff. I am assuming its a $50 or so part, so I will just try and get another while I have it all apart and get it replaced. It is not "grooved", thats a trick of the light in the above shot. And that really is an EXTREME macro with the light all arranged to make it look as bad as possible. In real life, it looks alarming, but not catastrophic as in the above shot. I guess I could get new cams to match my new supertrapp... but I like the M2 tuning (broad powerband over peak power). And I think 3 of the 4 cams are still good... Wonder if Aarron or Pammy have a stack of these things pulled from good motors when people upgrade? All the other cams seem to look OK. There is a wear pattern you can see in the hardened surface, but nothing that you can feel and no groove. It feels and looks perfectly level, the metal just looks different... like cloudy... down the path the rollers take. It is perfectly smooth to drag a fingernail across. I'll post my other rants in the appropriate sections. Thanks everyone for the help, I really appreciate it. | ||
| Peter |
Reepicheep, If that is a 'D' grind (it will be stamped on the lobe with a number), then it will also have a colour on it. If you are able to buy the single cam, try to get the same colour. If you can't, then go smaller in gear size colour, not bigger. (big) black, yellow, green, white, red, blue, brown (small) If it has '15' stamped on the lobe with another number, then you have X1 cams which are what we get in M2's in Europe. They don't have different sizes so you don't need to worry about sizing. They're just noisy. PPiA | ||
| Pammy |
Jeff, you are absolutely right on the 'pins'. I would not replace the cam without replacing the lifter. Bill, I just checked your profile to see what year bike you have. If the pins are threaded(and they should be) you are in good shape as far as that goes. They are threaded into the base of the lifterblock area at the base of the pushrods. I am not sure if I have any cams laying around that would work for you. Follows Peter's advise and post what you have and I will check. We can make up kits for Mikuni, if none are available. I may have a used Mikuni HSR42 for sale. I like the force-type air filter systems. | ||
| Aaron |
Hey Bill ... this is a 2000 model M2? Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but looking at my '00-'01 parts book, they don't list separate cams. You have to buy a whole set of 25193-00A. That part number is the "high contact ratio" set, meaning that it's got a different tooth pitch from '99 and earlier cams. They don't have to be fitted to each individual motor the way the old ones did, it's one size fits all. By comparison, in a '99 and older bike you could buy individual "D" cams and each cam gear was available in 7 different sizes, except the #2 cam which was available in 49 different sizes since it has 2 gears. Also there were 7 different sizes of pinion gears, the new HCR cams again have only one size pinion gear. The number of different possible combinations in a '99 or older motor is mind boggling. Now, you really want to get confused? I'm not at all sure your motor is fully high contact ratio now. I believe 2000 was a transition year, and only the pinion to #2 connection is HCR, and they didn't go HCR across the board until '01. My guess is that your pinion connection has a noticeably finer tooth pitch than the other connections, no? The *easy* thing to do is to just buy a new set of cams, but it may be possible to change just one, if this hunch is correct. Which cam is it that shows the wear? If it's #1, 3, or 4, and it's not HCR, you *may* be able to buy the individual cam. Give me the color code and I'll look up the number and we'll find out if it's been discontinued. Sometimes they discontinue out-of-production parts if they have an alternate service solution, which they do in this case, they can make people buy a whole set of HCR cams. If it's #2, that bastard 2000 cam with an HCR drive gear and a coarse tooth gear for connecting to the adjacent cams is not available individually. However, notice how the HCR drive gear is just pressed on there. It's not difficult to remove that gear and move it to a new #2 cam, I've done it many times, I'll even do it for you if you send me the stuff. Again, let me know the color code on the current #2 cam and I'll look up the number. BTW, last time I bought new stock lifters, they were all of $16 each. Just do it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Peter and Pammy! It is a D alright, 4D, with a black dot. I will call around locally and see if I can scare anything up. The parts manual only lists them as part of a set, which is ominous. | ||
| Aaron |
25666-91 - cam gear, front exhaust, black | ||
| Jst |
Bill, You might want to consider using a "labor saver" pushrod kit too. This saves you from having to pull the heads to remove the pushrods and lifters. It comes with split pushrod tubes and adjustable pushrods. It's worth the money. JT | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Aaron. The number resolves and a part is on order. About $65. And the pinion gear does indeed appear to be a finer pitch then the other gears. How on earth did you find that information? I am incurring some major karmic debts here people, thanks for all the help. They wanted over $400 for the new cam set. | ||
| Aaron |
Bill: A little birdie told me about that awhile back. I've had 2 other 2000 model motors open and they both were that way, HCR on the pinion connection and the old style gear cut between the cams. So I had reason to believe yours was probably that way, too, it was more than just a hunch. I've been told that the old style cam gear teeth is a stronger setup, I have no idea if that's true or not though. I haven't seen widespread failures of the HCR's so I'm skeptical. Obviously each tooth is stronger in the old design but you've got more teeth engaging with the HCR, right? Blake could probably do the math for us  Be forewarned, that part number I gave you is out of the '99 parts book. But if my understanding of what-they-changed-when is correct, and I believe it is, it'll go right into your motor. Just be aware that if you ever have to replace your #2 cam with a '99 model, you'll have to move that drive gear from your old cam to the new one. But it ain't hard to do. | ||
| Jrh |
Reep With Aaron and these other folks help it sounds like you've got it all under control,but if you run into trouble of some kind getting that cam i've got a set including pinion gear with approx.350 miles on them out of my 2000 M2,i could give you as a last resort. | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
Holy F*&K Guys, I am amazed. What a board, can someone tell me where else, in any other organization, would you get this kind of support and response. Excellent Work Guys and keep it up. | ||
| Reepicheep |
JRH (John)... Thats what I was looking for. I have a new single cam on order, which is going to cost me $65. But if you want to get rid of the ones you have, I'll cancel the order and give you $100 for the set. Thats a lousy deal, less then half of what a new set of Screaming Eagle cams cost, but I can solve my problem for $65 with the factory part, so can't justify going much higher then that. The extra $35 would give me peace of mind that all the cams are known to work together and I would just replace them as a set. Let me know before Sunday at 5pm if this is of any interest to you. Email me at Bill @ KilgallonFamily . com, or call me at (513)-648-0150. I am in Cincinnati. Thanks everyone. Could not do it without you. Bill | ||
| Reepicheep |
Attn Moderator! I posted this on the quick board because I thought this was a simple little throwaway opinion question, and we just keep getting gem after gem of wisdom here. Can this be moved to the knowledge vault? If not, I will summarize and put a post there myself, but it would be nice to keep everyones contributions intact. Aaron gave me a little more help offline and pointed out a misconception I had. The sizes, as indicated by the color code, is not just for cam to cam sizing, but depends on engine geometry as well. So just because you have a matched set from another engine (which John was graciously going to give me for just the cost of shipping BTW), that does not mean it is an appropriate set for your engine. There are universal cams, like the S1 and Lightning, but they are all small, and noisy. I wonder if the XB's have the tolerances cleaned up enough that their cams can be BOTH quite and universal. Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Yes, the XB has high contact ratio just like the 01-02's, so there's no fitting. Yours is the last year of that cam fitting stuff. |
