| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
This could he a HUGE win for Ohlins over Showa.
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| Bott |
wouldn't it be great to see Dr. Rossi move to Ducati--just 'cause he felt like it? (ya gotta admit,his nay-sayyers would be quiet after his first few victories) just sayin. | ||
| Trojan |
I think things would have to be desperate for HRC to abandon Showa (owned by Honda of course) in favour of Ohlins (Owned by Yamaha). Unless there is a significant advantage they will probably stay with Showa. The biggest advantage to them won't be increase suspension performance, but access to better data in relation to how the Ohlins stuff works with the Bridgestone tyres, as there is alreadya lot of feedback from Ducati, Yamaha and the other Ohlins runners. In WSB Ten Kate recently ditched WP suspension for Ohlins for very similar reasons rather than for outright performance gains. I've just read that Aleix Espargaro is to ride the Pramac Ducati at Indy in place of Kallio who is at the factory team temporarily. You may ask who the hell Espargaro is? A bit of a journey man really, with no full time ride in this years GP series he has filled in for injuries in the 250 class and has spent the rest of the year testing and racing the new Moto2 bike from Balatonring in the Spanish Formula Extreme championship. Maybe Pramac know something that we don't, or maybe he (or someone else) is paying for the ride. Either way it seems like a strange choice? | ||
| Jaimec |
By the way, I heard Michele crashed in Brno in one of the practices and injured himself. He didn't finish the race because of his fitness? That CAN'T be good for his WSBK title. DUMB move putting him on that bike in a series where nothing he did would count. Just hope he's fit enough by the time the WSBK series resumes. What the HELL was Ducati thinking?? | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
Read from the bottom up. This is a great interview and it provides a TON of inside information about the current MotoGP system/paddock. http://www.motogpmatters.com/category/people/irta/ herve_poncharal | ||
| Blake |
>>>Showa (owned by Honda of course) in favour of Ohlins (Owned by Yamaha). Whoa! I did not know that! | ||
| V74 |
mr Ohlins bought his company back off yamaha a while back, i have to agree with most of what trojan says about rossi,and those that think there is a conspiracy to keep him winning at the known expense of other racers GET A LIFE,i wouldnt take long for a disgruntled racer to blow the whistle if ever that where true, | ||
| Elfrippo |
Rossi's M1 was faster than Lorenzo's down the straight in Sanchesring. Do you think that Yamaha will let any other Yamaha rider to actually beat Rossi ?? Vagelis46, your talk about Rossi having 20hp over Lorenzo and being faster in Sachsenring is nothing but uneducated crap. Look below for real numbers. As you can see Lorenzos and Rossis bikes are very close. Sachsenring 2009 Event Maximum Speed: Jorge Lorenzo: 283.1 km/h Valentino Rossi: 282.1 km/h http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/xx/2009/ GER/MotoGP/EventMaximumSpeed.pdf Brno 2009 Event Maximum Speed: Jorge Lorenzo: 298.0 km/h Valentino Rossi: 298.8 km/h http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/xx/2009/ CZE/MotoGP/EventMaximumSpeed.pdf} (Message edited by Elfrippo on August 19, 2009) (Message edited by Elfrippo on August 20, 2009) | ||
| Trojan |
By the way, I heard Michele crashed in Brno in one of the practices and injured himself. He didn't finish the race because of his fitness? I think the shoulder injury was a relatively old one, and he suffered badly from arm pump during the race. What it really does highlight is the huge difference in physical effort required to ride a MotoGP bike compared to even a top WSBK contender. Fabrizio is at the front every week in WSB yet was slowest of the whole field in Brno and unable to complete race distance. Even allowing for the fact that it was a relatively unknown bike his fitness level was way below that of a regular GP rider. I also have to agree with Jaimec on Ducati's thinking behind putting someone in contention for a WSB title on a MotoGP bike and risking injury for nothing. Some of the Ducati decisions recently have been marginal to say the least, and coming straight after the Donington fiasco, Stoners shock absence and Esparcargo's signing for Indy you have to wonder what is coming next from Bologna! .............................. Actually, I think I have figured out why Pramac have taken the decision to field Esparcargo at Indy and Misano...He is the test rider for the Balantonring Moto2 bike that will debut next year in Moto2 (replacing 250GP) and Pramac are rumoured to be wanting to run a Moto2 team. Obviously all Moto2 bikes will have Honda engines, so there will be no input from Ducati, so maybe Pramac will just take the Balantonring team and turn it into Pramac Moto2 with Esparcargo as the rider. This way he gets some experience of the tracks and of working with the team before Moto2 starts next year. Problem solved, now I'm off to bed  (Message edited by trojan on August 19, 2009) | ||
| Gaesati |
After reading all the recent and not so recent posts on the motogp thread and others I am moved to make a small contribution especially with regard to messrs Stoner and Mladin and the amount of flak they seem to get. Given that Stoner has been racing competitively since he was 4 years old it is quite possible he is suffering from burnout. He has been racing internationally full time since he was 14. In this he parallels Freddie Spencer whose career lasted only about as long and began at about the same age in addition Freddie raced the three cylinder Honda against the prevailing fours as well as doing the development on the evil "upside down" first honda v-four two stroke. Stoner is to date the only rider who can get the ducati to perform and having watched him race it both in person and via TV it is obvious that he puts a massive physical, emotional and mental effort in when he is getting it to go. Spencer too, during his short time at the top made huge efforts to get the results he did. Some people argue that Stoner is not talented because he crashed a lot during his first year in MotoGP. By comparison Michael Doohan's first half year drew a number of comments also. His crash record was so bad that his biography mentions that in the paddock his nickname was "Dead by June" Doohan. Kenny Roberts said of him in those early days that Doohan and his style would be ok when tyre technology caught up with what he was demanding of the bike. How many people wrote off Doohan when he started winning consistently by ascribing his victories to the 'big bang' engine? There seems to be a parallel with Stoner who starts to win when he gets onto Ducati electronics and Bridgestone tyres. Maybe techynology caught up with what they were asking the bike to do? Most talented Australian Motorcycle racers come up through an intensely competitive dirt track environment. There are a lot of talented youngsters out there and those who excel are of two types: the second tier are pretty affable and talented like Vermeulen, Pitt and Corser and numerous others; the top tier who excel at the highest level are Doohan(notoriously prickly and a ruthless racer, the much maligned and ferocious Mat Mladin, Wayne Gardner (whom Rainey described as 'the animal among us'), the brilliant but tragically flawed genius, Anthony Gobert and Casey Stoner. What drives them and makes them the way they are? Is it the intensity required to excel in the junior competition in Australia? Is it being a long way from home at an early age(all of them)? Is it being picked up by a works team, Cagiva, in MLadin's case at age 18 and then shafted that makes them determined to succeed and to be less than concerned by anything that doesn't contribute to winning? In Doohan's case his early experience with the media embittered his relationship with the and made him suspicious. Mladin too was made suspicious and prickly by his experiences. Casey Stoner excelled at motorcycling, but often young boys in small country schools and communities in Australia who don't fit the norm have an unmercifully hard time of it in the playground. Often they retreat into suspicion of other people's motives (which is often misconstrued as arrogance, condescension and uncaringness.) Often they become loners and are unwilling to engage with people they don't know. Often, they seek areas in which they excel and which have a clearly defined ethos of engagement. Many seek out competitive solo sports. Often winning IS MORE THAN the most important thing and they can not offer or accept a personal reason for not winning. Often, when these boys find themselves in a supportive environment (like Stoner's obvious relationship with Ducati)They cease to make excuses for non-performance by blaming it on others. I observe that Stoner over the past three months has constantly reiterated that the Ducati and his team perform better than he himself does. Of course, all of the above may have no relevance to the people mentioned, it is supposition based on thirty years of working with boys like this, being involved in motorcycling for even longer and living and working where these racers(with the exception of Doohan and Vermeulen) spring from. | ||
| Trojan |
The only problem with the above is that your forget that most other top flight racers began racing at age 4 or thereabouts too. Rossi was racing karts as soon as he could walk, Melandri was on mini motos and lots of other riders started in schoolboy motocross. All of them put in as much effort and emotion as the Oz riders do I am sure, and the envirenments are just as competitive. Then we have the other side of the coin in someone like Troy Bayliss, who only started in his mid 20's but was just as competitive and fierce as Doohan & Gardner. I think most of it is down to pure innate talent and personality. Just like in the rest of humanity, there are riders who, even under the most severe pressure, stay cheerful and polite and who thrive under pressure. Then there are others who are rude and impolite even when there is no pressure on them (I am not alluding to anyone in particular here)and others who crumble at the first hurdle. Any rider that has made it to the top of his sport has to be very tough, very comitted and very focussed. What we see in public is just the tip of the iceberg. | ||
| Gaesati |
aaah...nature vs nurture...I guess we are at different ends of the spectrum of this argument. I left out Bayliss because he came through a different path to the racers I mentioned earlier and seemed to behave differently in the paddock. A better exception to my line of thinking might be the career of Darryl Beattie. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
""I think the shoulder injury was a relatively old one, and he suffered badly from arm pump during the race. What it really does highlight is the huge difference in physical effort required to ride a MotoGP bike compared to even a top WSBK contender. Fabrizio is at the front every week in WSB yet was slowest of the whole field in Brno and unable to complete race distance. Even allowing for the fact that it was a relatively unknown bike his fitness level was way below that of a regular GP rider. "" Maybe it is the Ducati GP bike being so much harder too ride than every other racing bike. Fabrizio did not last a race....Maybe this is the reason why Stoner gets "burnt" mid race, especially if he suffered an illness at Catalunya that nade him weak. What I like about Hayden is that he is the only rider to join Ducati the last couple of years, that has not given up trying and trying to improve. Elias, Melandri, Kalio decided that they want something different for their carrer. I think that there is too much analysis for the Stoner illness. It is simple. You have a very physically demanding bike to ride for the last 3 years, the Ducati GP9. Then suddenly Stoner gets a normal infection&virus that would normally take him 2-3 weeks to reject if he was relaxing and eating well at home. Instead Stoner continues to train, ride and travel around the world. So insead of getting better he gets worse and worse..... and finally he collapses. Has anyone tried to go to the gym while he is ill ? Now he will rest at home, eat well and relax and he will be OK in 4 weeks. Story over The good thing about this story is that there could be some riders changing bikes at the end of the season. | ||
| Gaesati |
two asides about crashing and Stoner's early history: "if you're not crashing you're not trying hard enough" "it is possible for a fast rider to crash his way back down to a winning speed.... nothing will make a slow rider fast enough to win..." | ||
| Jaimec |
Max Biaggi said it best most recently: "In order to finish first, first you have to finish." I know he was quoting someone else, but I forget who at the moment. | ||
| Trojan |
What I like about Hayden is that he is the only rider to join Ducati the last couple of years, that has not given up trying and trying to improve. Elias, Melandri, Kalio decided that they want something different for their carrer. Elias scored better results on the Pramac Ducati than Hayden has managed so far on teh factor bike, and is strongly rumoured to be one of the favourites to rejoin Pramac next year (I hope he does!), so he didn't move on intentionally (Pramac decided to hire someone else). Likewise Kallio hasn't decided to move on yet either  | ||
| Jaimec |
VERY interesting! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is now too late for Lorenzo to say no to Ducati, without looking scared of their GP bike. The money is there, the challenge is there(with or without Stoner), so Jorge just do it! | ||
| Gaesati |
Jorge on a Ducati would be a sight to behold (even with his propensity to crash under pressure). He is, however, young, highly trained, motivated and a brilliant talent. He is also better at PR than Stoner. Nicky Hayden has a wealth of personal qualities and is a highly talented racer. Riders who are young and fast often override their bikes in their desire to win..a very good example is Kevin Shwantz who spent a much of his career racing injured even though he was a genius. He had "a heart as big as Texas". Others like Wayne Rainey and Eddy Lawson learned through experience that second place sometimes has to be accepted. It occurs to me that Rossi is the only top flight racer I can think of who has never been significantly hurt. | ||
| Gaesati |
I agree with Trojan's assessment of Elias. However, he does need a coach to temper his recklessness given the damage he does to himself and others. Methinks, he is another crash or win racer when the opportunity is there. Some racers have a heart bigger than their skill, experience or bike. Christian Sarron was a racer whom I admired for his sheer courage and desire too win against the odds. | ||
| Jaimec |
Anybody know the deal with the "Box Lunch" at Indianapolis this year? Great deal last year but I can't find anything on them this year. Surfing into http://www.brickyardboxlunch.com simply redirects you to the main Indy site and there is no mention whatsoever regarding the deal... | ||
| Indybuell |
They do it at Kroger. It's great. | ||
| Jaimec |
So we'd have to go pick it up before entering the track? Last year there were specific locations around the track where you picked up your pre-ordered lunches. | ||
| Trojan |
Lorenzo has today announced that he has signed for Yamaha (no surprise there then) for 2010, which pretty much pencils in every other team exept Tech 3, who are still waiting for Ben Spies to decide his future. Ducati will remain unchanged, with Hayden getting another year to try and tame the beast, although it is still unclear if Stoner will actually return at all. If not then expect Kallio to take his place full time. HRC riders Pedrosa and Dovi will now of course rubber stamp their new contracts, as the only stumbling block was the slim chance of a Yamaha ride for Pedrosa should Lorenzo leave. Just the minor places to fill now then, but after all the speculation it appears that nothing much has changed | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Sad news.... | ||
| Trojan |
Sad news.... Why sad? It is very good news for the championship and for close racing. If Lorenzo had gone to Ducati then Rossi would have been handed a clean sweep of next years series before it even began. At least this way there is another rider capable of running at the front with Rossi (at least for a while!). Also it keeps Nicky Hayden in a job at Ducati for another year, and probably keeps Tech 3 duo Edwards and Toseland in a job too as I really can't see Yamaha taking on Spies in addition to Lorenzo and Rossi, as they just don't have room for all of them in the same team next year. Spies will probably be forced to do another year in WSB or switch maufacturers. Stoner is unlikely to be near the pace of the front runners when (or if) he returns, and is sure to take a while to get back up to speed. If he doesn't return then it is left to Hayden to develop next years Ducati, and with the best will in the world he has not shown that he is the greatest at developing new bikes so far. Lorenzo at Yamaha was the only sensible decision, and all the rumour about Honda and Ducati was just speculation. | ||
| Jaimec |
Glad to see that common sense ruled over immediate financial gain. Ducati is poison. | ||
| P_squared |
If he doesn't return then it is left to Hayden to develop next years Ducati, and with the best will in the world he has not shown that he is the greatest at developing new bikes so far. I think he might surprise some folks if Stoner doesn't return & he's given full control on development. I seem to recall he actually did make some good progress on the RC212 once he got HRC to give him what he wanted towards the end of the season in '07. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
If Spies does not join motoGP in 2010, that is even worse news for the fans. What is his salary at WSBK ?? Can tech3 pay him this money ?? Ducati's next and only option is to offer a good salary to Spies for the Parmac team with 100% factory technical support. If they offered 7mil Euros/year to Lorenzo, I am sure they can make a good offer to Spies. It now seems very stupid, this "no factory-rookie" rule. How can Ducati pay Spies' salary without the Philip Morris money ?? | ||
| Trojan |
What is his salary at WSBK ?? Can tech3 pay him this money ?? Tech 3 cannot afford to pay Colin Edwards, which is why he is paid directly by Yamaha. If he wasn't then he would have been dropped at the end of 2008 by Tech 3. Spies could have been in MotoGP right now if his wage demands had been more realistic last year, but he priced himself out of a Yamaha and Suzuki seat with his unreasonable wage demands. I am sure that if he wins WSB he will want at least as much if not more, and that may still be too much for any non factory team to pay. Ducati's next and only option is to offer a good salary to Spies for the Parmac team with 100% factory technical support. If they offered 7mil Euros/year to Lorenzo, I am sure they can make a good offer to Spies. If Spies has any regard for his future career prospects he should avoid the Ducati option like the plague! Staying in WSB for another year or two would be preferable to a Ducati contract with Pramac or the factoryteam right now! |
