| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
The more power I extract from my personal Buell, the less of a desire I have to use it on the street. My future engine may look something like this:  I'll always kick it old-school...but no longer need 100 RWHP  A factory 100RWHP 90FT-LB Buell would probably make a lot of people happy. Achieving that without having a cranky machine in hot stop and go traffic and achieving the required emissions regs is the hard part. The current engine is pretty damn good (though H-D's XR1200 cylinder head cooling system looks mighty nice). | ||
| Teddagreek |
Oil cooled heads came from buell... | ||
| Steve_mackay |
More Coffee Smoothies for me! Just tell Kerry he should give you the "family discount" since you're a friend of mine... Oh wait, do you want to pay 10% MORE?  Yup, I think he is officially retired today after working there for 37 years. | ||
| Oddball |
Maybe they could step outside like they did with rotax? S&S maybe? Wakan uses them. 100 cubic inches, 4 inch bore and stroke. Normally puts out 115hp at 5500rpm. Not saying just jump ship to that engine but combined effort might make the suggested changes possible? http://www.engmore.com/7_press_files/72_america_fi les/cw00.pdf | ||
| Rick_a |
Sure it did, but it's used exclusively on the XR1200. | ||
| Blake |
I really like the current engine and don't see any reason why it cannot continue to evolve. The XBRR was a good start. Laying of from production lines is one thing. From the PDC too? That would be foolish. | ||
| Buelleaver |
"There is NOTHING inherent in an air-cooled engine that prevents it from meeting strict emissions standards." Nothing other then there inability to dissipate heat as well as an liquid cooled bike. It’s great they made the 2010 epa regs. A lot of naysayers were predicting they weren’t going to do it. But from what I’m hearing from my harley friends is the new Harleys run very hot. Perhaps someone with A new xb could verify or deny that. | ||
| Blake |
>>>Nothing other then there inability to dissipate heat as well as an liquid cooled bike. Nope. Not true. | ||
| Blake |
Again, no catalytic converters (cats) on the domestic Buells. If they need to reduce emissions further the solution is beyond simple, slap a cat on it. | ||
| Blake |
Lemonchili_x1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 12:09 pm: Isn't water just a medium for transferring the heat into the air? PDC? Product Development something? Even though the current economic situation may be slowing plans down, or causing timelines to be stretched out, wouldn't Buell be seriously into development of 2011 models by now? And planning for 2012-2014? A slightly civilised XBRR street motor would ROCK : D Spatten1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 01:00 pm: The problem air cooled engines have meeting emissions is two-fold. First, engine temp varies considerably. Second, when engine temp varies so do tolerances, from piston clearance to valve lift. Everything operates in a wider range. I think the current XB engines work really well. To get more power and be reliable and make emissions, they may lose some the of crude HD character which would be a shame. I'd hate to have a Buell engine that feels like a BMW engine. Blake Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 02:02 pm: Scott, Your points about temperature and tolerance only relate to emissions wrt to their effect on blow-by. Blow-by is inconsequential to emissions as it is all directed right back into the engine. Again, which engine requires a catalytic converter to meet emissions in America, the liquid cooled 1125 or the air-cooled mills? The mythology that runs rampant on this subject is incredible. Spatten1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 02:47 pm: Doesn't combustion efficiency and air flow change with different temperatures? Doesn't effective valve lift change with different temperatures? Buellinachinashop Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 03:20 pm: "A slightly civilised XBRR street motor would ROCK." I'd suggest reading the XBRRRRRRRRR Matey thread about this. I've read alot of posts by Slaughter describing how much dyno time is needed to do it. It would need an EFI upgrade, head work and who knows how much more engineering to make it street legal and eps compliant. I too think it would rock. Turk Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 06:09 pm: The mythology that runs rampant on this subject is incredible. This is the most accurate thing posted in this entire thread. As Blake pointed out, the XBs still aren't using a catalyst to pass the new 2010 EPA standards. That folks, is a clean running engine so it doesn't seem like liquid cooling is any magic emissions bullet. Spatten1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 06:11 pm: The XB does make emissions.....it's also about 30% down on power from the XBRR (the XBRR is up nearly 50% from the XB). Blake Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 07:19 pm: That is correct. What is your point, that increased power would make it more difficult to meet air pollution emissions limits? So what? Put a catalytic converter on it and turn down the air/fuel ratio. The only emissions limitations that hinder bigger more powerful air-cooled engines are the ridiculously stupidly low noise limits. Diablobrian Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 07:49 pm: Noise laws are the stated reason there is no 6 speed transmission in the XB series, which would lend some credence to the noise limitations keeping the XB motors from being developed up to a higher level. Slaughter Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 08:07 pm: Yabbut the XBRR is a short-stroke DINNER PLATE SIZE bore - 1340cc (from memory) and you have to run like 112 octane LEADED race fuel. HIGH compression that kinda needed local tuning "tweaks" for changing atmospheric conditions. Cool motor but XBRR has been overrun by events (1125R and RR) It would have CRUCIFIED Buell to continue to support the XBRR and still put effort into race development of the 1125 platform (personal opinion ONLY-no fact) Lemonchili_x1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 10:17 pm: I haven't looked in the XBRR section in a long time. Found the "modifying XBRR for the street" thread, I'll have a read through it tonight. On a different tangent - What is it that gives the Thunderstorm engine its unique character? They feel and sound different to 90 degree twin obviously, but even compared to a Sportster they feel different. My thoughts - Lack of valve train noise, 45 degree twin through single throttle body, No balance shafts and Buell engine mounting system, 2-1 exhaust Nik Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 10:25 pm: Isn't water just a medium for transferring the heat into the air? Yep, all engines are effectively air cooled. Nothing other then there inability to dissipate heat as well as an liquid cooled bike. Actually going direct to air, vs liquid to air is more efficient per unit area. The advantage liquid cooling has is that its easy. Surround the cylinder in some water jackets, slap a big enough radiator on it and a thermostat to keep it at whatever temperature you want and it will work. With air cooling you have to optimize the airflow around the cooling fins, make sure the fins themselves are correctly sized, and optimally have some kind of thermostat controlled forced air source (read, fan). It takes a lot more effort to properly design an air cooling system than it does a liquid cooled one. Liquid cooling is just the easy way out. Spatten1 Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 10:29 pm: Liquid cooling also uses a thermostat to keep temperature regulated within a narrower band. That is one of the biggest advantages- tighter tolerances allow higher revs and more power. Nik Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 11:16 pm: uh, I said that. With more engineering effort the temperature of a FORCE air cooled engine (thermostat controlled fan, like the XB) can be regulated just as tightly. | ||
| Boltrider |
My '08 12R feels fine. It can get hot, but that depends more on the weather and traffic conditions. If you check the 1125 board, they seem to have just as many "hot frame" issues as the XB's. They also can see coolant temps above 200 degrees, again depending on the weather/traffic. (Message edited by boltrider on August 16, 2009) | ||
| Mtch |
from what i have read, and seen for myself on uk forums, better primary side crank and clutch basket bearings. sort them at the same time as going to gear primary drive and not much else to do | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
I'm starting to get an understanding of how many changes were made to the '08/09 motor. It would be interesting to see a dyno curve to compare with a stock '04. Did the '08 XB9SX get the bigger crank pin that the 12 got? The XBRR has wider cylinder stud spacing? | ||
| 46champ |
Yes the XBRR has wider stud spacing. Biggest bore that the stock spacing will go is 3 13/16. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I doubt there is going to be any major changes with the lower end that require any retooling. The top end has plenty of room for improvement. I think the XB is going to end up "cubed" leaving Buellers with a choice of what flavor 1125 they want...replace the "R" with the new fully faired "RR"...high mount the fender,throw on a long travel suspension and call it a Buelly...leave off the fairing for the streetfighter look,throw on shorter suspension and higher bars for a "low"...and leave the Lobsta alone except for bold new graphics and yet another "marketing" scheme. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Dana, not true, the biggest spicket bore the cases can go is 4.010 inches. Rev Perf changed their 88 ci with a 3 13/16 bore to and a 3 7/8 making it a full 90ci engine. We have built a few with good numbers. Terry - www.jtsperformance.com | ||
| Spatten1 |
Does the XBRR have plain bearings in the bottom end? | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
How hard would it be for Buell to retool the XB bottom end to take the wider stud spacing? I guess if it was easy they would have done it by now? So it's probably fantasy stuff, but... How about a hybrid of the current XB9 bottom end (assuming it has the bigger 1.5" crank pin) with "production-ized" lower compression XBRR top end? Maybe use two 45mm XB9 throttle bodies and new headers into a standard XB12 muffler, new cam for peak power around 7500rpm, redline at 7800rpm (XB9 + 300rpm). From what I read somewhere else that should bolt straight into an XB12SS frame. Alternatively - 3 7/8" bore with XB9 stroke would give a high revving 1208cc... (Message edited by lemonchili_x1 on August 16, 2009) | ||
| Ezblast |
Now there is a beautiful thought! EZ | ||
| Blake |
"I think the XB is going to end up "cubed" leaving Buellers with a choice of what flavor 1125 they want" What a brilliant idea! Throw away the majority of your market share and profit center. A bold business move that would be. Terry, yeah but is sure isn't an optimum solution, structurally speaking. Carving that case bolt down is wild looking, darn disconcerting. You figure they sized that bolt for a reason, yes? I know lots of shops do it, heck all of them pretty much I guess. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"aying of from production lines is one thing. From the PDC too? That would be foolish." A majority of the recent layoffs have been from the PDC. Close to 400 people have either taken retirement packages or have been shown the door. When I spoke to one of my friends, he said the first rounds of layoff got rid of contractors then moved on to low seniority then to the useless...now these most recent layoffs are gouging into talent. Tenured, talented designers and engineers are the last thing they need to lose at Harley. | ||
| 46champ |
Thanks Terry I was wondering how people were getting 90 inches. Does anyone have problems with the studs pulling out? | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Funny you say that Dana. I just got done last weekend fixing a set of cases for Dan Bilansky. He's had trouble with studs pulling out. He pretty much goes thru a set of cases a season IIRC. But I believe his are 88". There's not much meat left after an 88" bore. I'd hate to see what 90" would be. I'm sure it's perfectly fine for street use where compression ratios aren't sky high however. But if you're going to build a big inch air cooled engine, I'd start with XBRR cases. Larger studs(IIRC), taller 'deck', etc... | ||
| Macbuell |
I'm with Blake, if Buell would build a streetable XB with 120RWHP I would trade in my bike in an instant ... and I LOVE my XB12R. I really have a hard time figuring out why it couldn't be done if Buell wanted to and I am sure there is enough of a market to support it. | ||
| Fast1075 |
If there was a production street XB with 120 rwhp...it would have to be painted green-n-yellow  | ||
| Xl1200r |
We're getting 100+ hp out of a long stroke, air-cooled pushrod V-twin. That's pretty friggin good. 120 RWHP is about 140 at the crank. Guess what else is making 140 hp at the crank. I'll give you some hints: It has a short stroke, liquid cooling and 4 valves per cylinder. I think the XB's closest competitor engine-wise is the 1170cc BMW Boxer. The standard model of that engine is only eeking out 110hp - just 7 more than the Buell - with the same torque figure. To do that, it took a much shorter stroke engine and 4 valves per cylinder. The HP2 Sport Boxer engine is able to get 133hp out of the same displacement, but it took a beefed up bottom end capable of 9000+ rpm (good luck doing that on an XB), and wrapped it up in a $25k+ motorcycle. Again, it took much shorter stroke and multi-valve heads. It's possible to get a larger bore out of the XB, but pretty soon you start buming up against having to shorten the skirt on pistons and having to shave the case rod. I wouldn't ever expect an XB to come with a Sportster-based engine more than 1210cc unless there's an overhaul to the bottom end from the factory, which there's no need for. Harley won't want it to bump into the big twins on power and displacement, and Buell can just push you to an 1125 if you want more 'go go'. I've been around these XB engines a while, both in Buell and Sportsters, and while you can build streetable horespower gains, it's not truely "streetable" and I wouldn't expect anything to come from the factory like that. | ||
| Spatten1 |
+1 Well written XL | ||
| Spatten1 |
A roller bearing bottom end probably won't go a whole lot further. I believe S&S went plain bearing on the X-Wedge for that reason. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Okay, so you guys are saying that making a 120HP(at the wheel) air cooled XB would be easy? Seriously? That's 80% of the not overly reliable XBRR. All the while: Meeting EPA requirements Meeting EPA noise requirements Running on pump gas And reliable? Keep in mind, the 1125R only has around 120-130HP at the wheel. So, whatever you guys are smoking.... I WANT some! | ||
| Xl1200r |
Spatten - RPM limits on the XB aren't limited by bearings or even valvtrain, but piston speed. They've got a loooong stroke (even a 9 is undersquare), so those postons have to cover a lot of ground during each rotation. I'm not surprised the X-wedge has plain bearings for that reason - the way it makes power doesn't require anything more. |
