| Author | Message | ||
     Fresnobuell |
outside of the Buell community (i.e. BadWeb), NOBODY believes that bike belongs in with the 600s That's a pretty bold statement and untrue. Sad that people can't take their simple minds off the displacement issue and enjoy the off-the-hook DSB racing. Do we have to illustrate the Victory Vision analogy again? I guess the key phrase is "simple minds." Also, the claimed HP difference btw the base model 1198 and 1125 is 24 HP for the record. | ||
| Spatten1 |
REPEAT: The thread subject is not about the displacement or the dyno numbers. The subject is that that Spies observed that Eslick has so much more acceleration than the 600's, that's all. It's not theory or statistics, it's observation of results. Now that Spies is out of DMG, he can speak out without fear of retribution. It's just more interesting to come from him than someone mired in the series, or one of us bench racers. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
If I wanted to race a super single in Sportbike, how much of a CC advantage would you spot me? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Spies observed that Eslick has so much more acceleration than the 600's NOT TRUE given a long enough straight. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Duc makes a 1098R. Sorry I meant 1098 not 99. Happy fingers And the 1098R is 1198cc. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Let's talk about Horse Power and preception for a second. Buell claims on its website that the 1125R has 146hp. Suzuki doesn't even have a hp claim for the GSX-R600. I found it listed on a non-suzuki site at 106. Now you're telling me its perfectly fine, preception-wise, to advertise a bike at 146 hp but race it against bikes with 106? The AMA was supposed to be about show room bikes, maybe not stock, but racing bikes I can come awefully close to purchasing off the showroom floor. Here I am, a new sportbike buyer and I see that I can get a 600cc bike, at 106hp, that can beat a 146hp bike on the track for LESS? What would you buy? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spies observed that Eslick has so much more acceleration than the 600's NOT TRUE given a long enough straight.. Actually, Jeremy, the longer the straight the better for Eslick. As Spies noted, Eslick comes out of the corners slower, then reels the 600's in with horsepower. That means he is losing ground early in the straight, then makes it up the longer he can go in a straight line. Watch the straight before the pass on Hacking a couple of weeks ago, perfect example. It was insane watching Hacking's superior drive just steadily evaporate through the straight and kink. | ||
| Bott |
Here I am, a new sportbike buyer and I see that I can get a 600cc bike, at 106hp, that can beat a 146hp bike on the track for LESS? What would you buy? So, even with the advantage in acceleration the Buell has, the 600's can and HAVE beaten the Buell. Many times.I guess the Suzuki 600 must have an advantage at something.Seven wins by one rider,against the acceleration advantaged bike(s). Sounds like good racing to me, but my only claim to 'expert' is being an expert in what I find exciting,close racing. Your results will vary. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Actually, Jeremy, the longer the straight the better for Eslick. As Spies noted, Eslick comes out of the corners slower, then reels the 600's in with horsepower. That means he is losing ground early in the straight, then makes it up the longer he can go in a straight line. Does this even remotely jive with what you know about how power and torque are made in a twin vs. an IL4? | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
Wow. This again? This was posted by an anny in the racing section and I think this sums it up best. }The stupidity of the magazines publishing this stuff is amazing. Not only do we not know what the power to weight is, but power to weight doesn't remotely tell the story on a roadrace course. There is so much more to a motorcycle than these morons write. I'll list three items and there are many more. 1) Just regarding power to weight, the conclusions of "unfairness" are ridiculous and uneducated. First of all the heavier bike will be at a disadvantage in every area except acceleration. Duh. The power doesn't help going into corners and the extra weight on the identical spec tires hurts braking and in corner speed. 2) Then, the impact of power drops off exponentially with speed when CdA takes over. So a heavy bike with a higher CdA would be slower into and through the corners, quicker once it gets out of the corners but then drop off and likely get passed on the long sraightaways. 3) A high inertia engine is wonderful for street tractability, and great in the wet, as the wheelspin is lazier and more controllable. Hmmm, wonder if that's why there were four Buells in the top ten at Road America in the rain? But crankshaft inertia is a disadvantage on a dry race track in the hands of top pro riders who ride with lots of wheelspin. Where traction is high, greater inertia hurts spin-up speed of the rear tire when setting a bike up to turn with a sliding tire. You can spin it up biut it's less responsive to do quickly, so your best bet is to break it loose early and hard under braking then keep it lit. With spec tires this means your tires will get fried earlier, and your ability to modulate the throttle and spin is slower too. Hmmm, sounds like Danny at Laguna, eh, if you watched the race with an interest in actually seeing what was going on. 4) (I know I said 3 but I had to throw in a bonus, but there are many, many more attributes at play in a motorcycle than these) As we said before, high engine inertia makes a bike mellow on the street as it keeps the bike from being jerky on and off the throttle, keeps dust or water on the road from being as much of a problem. But it makes a bike harder to snap right left through S type turns on a race track. The only way to get through these turns is to short shift and drop the rpm, but then the bike won't accelerate off the corner. So, what we are seeing is a race class that takes this complexity and differences in motorcycle design into account, and allows rules juggling as more information about the different bikes' performances comes in. And lo and behold, we have a great series, with 6 brands and significantly different types competing for the wins. These people who are tainting the great racing with truly uneducated "technical" comments like "What about more power" need to go back to school. Yes Danny has an acceleration advantage, but he was nearly ten MPH down on top speed to the Hondas on the long back straight at Road America. Did he whine about that? No. Don't you think it must frustrate him when the lighter bikes can outbrake him and block the smooth line he needs to take to minimize inertia effects, or drive around him in a corner later in a race after his tires are fried? Sure, but he never says "Well I could have won if those other guys weren't allowed lighter bikes" | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yes Danny has an acceleration advantage, but he was nearly ten MPH down on top speed to the Hondas on the long back straight at Road America. My point exactly. | ||
| Svh |
I took it not so much as Spies was slamming Buell but slamming DMG for crappy rules. I am a huge fan of moto racing and watch every roadrace that makes it to tv. The racing has been good for the most part in Daytona Sport Bike(DSB). When the 12RR was allowed to run in the Formula Extreme class I saw how that made sense because they made very similar hp. The thing was too heavy to compete against those highly tuned machines though. Buell/Aprilia/KTM should not be in the DSB class but DMG rules allow them to be so I can not fault the teams just the rule makers. Besides Danny and Chas Davies there has been no other rider with a displacement "advantage" to come close to a podium. The Indian makes the difference not the arrow. For those that actually follow the sport, remember the surprise post race dyno after Barber? Barnes bike was near 160hp, Eslicks was 150hp, and the 4's were 125-135hp. Kawi being the top of that range and Honda being the last. Anyway with Barnes bike making that much hp he should be running away with it one would think, if they raced in a straight line. All the hype before the season was about Barnes so it was nice to see a "new" kid like Eslick do so well. I hope next year Buell will not be in that class. I like watching them race but they are doing nothing for themselves by running in that class. I know they are not factory so Buell doesn't control the teams but I don't know who in marketing/management allowed DMG to decide it would be a good idea to have your "superbike" race against middleweight 600's. Maybe the same genius that came up with the CUBE deal BEFORE there was a replacement. Now next year with Mladin gone, love him or hate him he is the best in a long time here in America, maybe the boring Suzuki parade laps will finally come to an end. It has been great to see Yamaha and Ducati get some wins. Pegram got a great reaction for winning at Road America when I was there. Mladin the next day did not. Can't wait for him to be gone!  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The big 4 NEVER publish the HP and torque values on their bikes. There is a reason. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...It's got nothing to do with displacement. It's about wanting to watch great racing on fairly matched equipment... Fixed it for you. When was the last time you saw a more closely contested AMA series with as many different manufacturer's bikes on the podium? As much as some of you hate them DMG has come up with a very entertaining series. G | ||
| Crusty |
Svh, where did you get those numbers? What I remember is that DMG wouldn't reveal the figures, and the high horsepower bike wasn't a Buell. But no numbers were revealed. | ||
| Danny_h__jesternut |
The cheating is......,never mind you won't beleave it anyways, even when you see it with your own two eyes. DMG=FAIL. Its not racing. Its motor sports entertainment. Real racing is about RICH boys and factories spending a small fortune, read un-Godly sums of cash on going ever faster. Um latest/greatest. ie: see World SBK or Moto GP. Poor little farm boys with a mere 40K for a bike should stay home or go Club racing. Whoever said the B teams are susposed to compete with the A teams. Socialist Racing??? It must be FAIR that everybody should have an equal shot at winning, NO MATTER WHAT.? Screw that, spend truck loads full of cash or go home, er club racing. FAIL.....  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Barnes bike was near 160hp, Eslicks was 150hp, and the 4's were 125-135hp That's complete bullshit. They only tested Barnes bike and it was supposedly, according-to-internet innuendo close to 150HP. Don't let the facts get in the way... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Now that Spies is out of DMG, he can speak out without fear of retribution. It's just more interesting to come from him than someone mired in the series, or one of us bench racers. Yeah, we should ALL take lots away from a self-absorbed a-hole who is making comments about a series that he can't name correctly, nor has he watched a complete race (supposedly.) | ||
| Svh |
I will have to dig up the numbers. They were in an article on DMG's rules somewhere. If I can't find it then you all can call me a liar I guess... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Here I am, a new sportbike buyer and I see that I can get a 600cc bike, at 106hp, that can beat a 146hp bike on the track for LESS? What would you buy? Well, a new rider probably shouldn't but either bike, but that's not the point, right? If people really put that little thought and research into buying a soprtbike, it's no wonder how many f-up and maim or kill themselves. BTW, not to get facts involved or anything, you are quoting the RWHP of a 600 versus the crank HP of the 1125r. Modern 600s crank HP generally in the mid-120s.  (Message edited by fresnobuell on August 12, 2009) | ||
| 46champ |
Who said Daytona Sport Bike was a 600 class isn't it really a class for everything else that they just let the 600's in to fill out the field. | ||
| Bads1 |
year: 2009 Suzuki GSXR 600 price: $9,799 Horse Power @ RPM: 125 hp at 13,500 rpm Torque @ RPM: 67.7 Nm at 11.500 rpm. Engine: 4-stroke, liquid-cooled, DOHC Transmission: 6-speed constant mesh Top Speed: +/-165mph mph Energy: Fuel injection Displacement: 599 Cc | ||
| Bads1 |
Barnes bike isn't making those figures. The power to weight ratio is pretty on par. The 1125r has some advantages on the straights. The inline have advantages in corner speed. I'm a fan of both bikes but view it pretty fair. | ||
| Elvis |
A year ago, the idea that a Buell could be competitive in Superbike would have been laughable. The idea that a Buell could compete against lighter high-revving, highly tuned 600's in the hands of top teams and riders wouldn't have seemed so crazy, but the idea of a championship would still be a pretty big stretch. Now that people are saying the Buell is too fast, you know what? I'm not going to argue with them. I hope Danny proves them right. I hope he blows Cardenas completely away . . . but that's what I hope, not what I expect. I won't be upset if the DMG excludes the 1125R from Sport-bike next year. It would be a shame for the smaller budget riders who could use an inexpensive ride to break into the AMA, but all the crap is just getting tiresome. Let Aprilia deal with the jeers for a while. I think Danny and Taylor can show some people a thing or two if they've got 1125RR's and some time to develop them. The idea of bikes with fuel in the frame and ZTL brakes competing with GSXR's and R1's and 1098R's doesn't seem so crazy anymore. Shawn Higbee just finished 13th in Superbike on a shoe-string budget and that wasn't even on an 1125RR, but a plain old run-of-the-mill 1125R. I'm ready to say: "Yeah, those Buells are too fast." When have we been able to say that with straight faces before? | ||
| Strato9r |
hmmm, I guess it's true, owning a Buell won't make you any friends, eh? But, it WAS the AMA that established the rules for this class, and from what I've seen, it IS good racing, and fun to see such a wide variety of makes so closely matched. As for the critics, I know what they ride, and for some reason, there always seems to be more of them behind me than in front of me, even though I'm still riding my obsolete 9r.... | ||
| Gregtonn |
...Who said Daytona Sport Bike was a 600 class isn't it really a class for everything else that they just let the 600's in to fill out the field... Out of the box thinking.  Well said! G | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Who said Daytona Sport Bike was a 600 class The Big Four. | ||
| 46champ |
Spies wouldn't know anything about having an unfair advantage would he. He's good but he isn't that much better. Look how his running mate is doing now he's still winning, by about a third as much. | ||
| Bads1 |
Spies wouldn't know anything about having an unfair advantage would he. He's good but he isn't that much better. Look how his running mate is doing now he's still winning, by about a third as much. Do you believe the interview. I don't its not Spies style. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
If Mr Spies had continued to watch, he would have seen Josh Herrin run off the track, lose the race pace, yet come back (from many, many, many bike lengths) to get by Eslick for 2nd place. Wonder how he would explain that? Maybe Martin and Danny sandbagged it so Herrin could catch back up and make it more entertaining.... Whatever... GTFO! ***Disclaimer*** The following is my opinion, yours may vary. The racing action is great with several different makes able to win on any given race day. The annonymos post is spot on. All in all, DMG has not done a bad job so far and I imagine there will be some changes in the off season. I would have rather seen Buell bring a 900 some cc to Daytona Sport Bike and leave the 1125 to Daytona Super Bike. But these are my thoughts and neither DMG, nor Buell asked me... |
