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Moarant
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 08:48 pm: | 
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Hello:
History: For a few years my 06 XB12ss has had an odd problem of stumbling after 5 minutes of riding (about the point it goes from open to closed loop). No big problem, just odd.
Problem: Today it died at the same point it usually stumbles. But it did not just die, it lost all electrical power. I have had some worn wire issues before, so I popped it open and started looking. Nothing. The battery cables were still tight (now that I use Lock-tight to secure them!), no observable wire damage, nothing....
I left the ignition switch on and walked a way to phone for a ride home. Bike was completely dead (no lights, no instruments, no computer). Ready to phone home and bike suddenly comes to life (instrument cluster sweeps, lights on, clock says 1:00). Cranks right up. This is some 5 minutes after it spontaneously died.
Not trusting this situation, I drive home (no problems) and take a cage to work. Come home and cannot find anything wrong.
Questions: Is this a bad ECM? If it were just ignition, I would say it was wiring, TPS, Crank sensor, etc. But to have the clock reset means that all electrical activity was disrupted.
Any ideas?
thanks
michael |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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Might be an issue with the main 30A fuse. It might have a hairline crack. All the electrics except the starter solenoid go through it. Try replacing it.
FYI, I'd never use Loc-Tite on the battery cable screws. Loc-Tite is an insulator and you don't want an insulator on the threads of the battery posts. Wait... that could be your problem with the bike dying! |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 12:58 pm: |
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Another thought is to try a new IGN relay. |
Moarant
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 04:47 pm: |
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Thanks for the comments.
I should have noted that only the first 2 threads have locktite. Just enough so I do not have to re-torque the battery posts every other week. Also, I have no problem starting the bike so a locktite insulation problem is very unlikely.
Any ideas on how to check to see if I have a bad ignition relay or a bad ECU? Can a bad ECU cause a complete power loss to the bike or is this an indication of ignition module? The part that bugs me is that this happened at the same point that the open to closed loop stumble happens.... Maybe reading too much into this.
So I may be beginning the process of parts replacement until I get this one.... |
Moarant
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 05:51 pm: |
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Any recommended places to order ignition module or ignition relay if I need one? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 08:07 pm: |
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Before you buy any relays which may not be the problem, try swapping the relays around. They are all the same. Identify each with a piece of tape or a magic marker so you'll know where the original positions are.
Did you try replacing the 30A fuse?
I doubt that a faulty ECM can completely shut down the bike, maybe shut off the ignition but not the rest of the electrics.
So, it's the dealer or Ebay for the ECM. Relays can be found at Autozone, Pep Boys or the dealer.
Another possible source for the shutdown problem could be a bad ground connection from the negative battery post to the engine as there are two large ground cables to complete the circuit. One is from the battery post to the frame and the other is from the frame to the engine. The latter one is attached to a motor mount link which is, I think, under the airbox floor. |
Moarant
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:08 pm: |
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Thanks!
The 30A fuse looked good. Fit was tight and had good contact "click" when replaced. I'll also get a spare set of fuses (need them anyway). Got me to thinking that I may need to pull the fuse box. Maybe the short is in the fuse box (had this happen on a car before).
I will check relays if / when it acts up again. But it works now. Still, when I pull relays one at a time I never loose all electrical circuits.
I am now suspecting the you may be on to something with the engine ground. Battery ground is tight but I need to pull the air box again to check the ground to engine.
Or I have a very odd battery failure...
bizarre problem.
thanks again |
Moarant
| | Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 04:40 pm: |
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All but disassembled bike today. Started at fuse box and ended at lights. No cuts / worn wires to be found. The last time I had a short it was behind the lights. The past repair was still tightly bound and showed no signs of new damage. The only place I did not pull was the wiring tray on the inside of the left frame rail. All fuses and relays appear to be good.
But I still had a shutdown today. I am 90% sure now that I have an arc somewhere or an electrical component shorting that causes an overload to the bike to shutdown for ~2 minutes. Any recommended places to re-check. Or any ideas as to what could cause the entire electrical system to crash?
I cannot find any bad harnesses or electrical components anywhere. And I did a violent wiggle test with bike running on every harness I could find.
thanks
michael |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 07:09 pm: |
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I doubt if it is a short because the first effect would be a blown 30A main fuse.
You said you looked at the 30A fuse. Did you put it back in or replace it with a new one?
I'd like you to try a simple test:
With the bike running at idle, yank out the 30A fuse. Does this recreate the shutting down symptom? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 07:44 pm: |
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Throwing out more ideas...
You mentioned possible battery failure. This is a good possibility and we can check that out easily enough. Do you have a voltmeter?
If so, what you might do is check the voltage at the battery posts when the bike shuts down again, presuming you can gain quick access to the battery at that time.
-- If the voltage is much less than 12VDC, say 6 or less, then the battery could have an internal short.
-- If the voltage is approx 12VDC (normal), then the problem may be an open (ground?) circuit somewhere between the battery and engine.
--- I'd look at that braided ground cable at the upper motor mount link under the airbox.
--- An outside possibility is a battery cable that has an insidious break in the conductor (rare, but it's happened before). |
Moarant
| | Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 08:49 am: |
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Thanks Sparky
First a note: The last time I had a problem like this (about a year ago) it was the wire bundle under the lights rubbing against the forks. But it never blew the 30A fuse that time. However, it also did not kill all electronics, it just shut the engine down.
Answers: You are correct that pulling the 30A fuse re-produces the problem. I will buy a new one today (been slaving away and haven't gotten to the auto store). Maybe it is a crack in the fuse - but I cannot see anything even with magnification.
Not seeing a fuse crack got me to pulling the fuse box out. But I could not see any bare wires and all terminals seemed tight. Short of re-wiring the entire box, I am out of ideas. And I do NOT want to re-wire the box!
Upper rear ground seemed good. It was tight and showed no indications of arcs. Other than it being loose, what should I look for? Any grounds to the engine its self to check?
I have a volt meter and did check the battery under off / crank / charge. Values were 12.6 / 6.5 / 14.2. So that part seemed OK. But like you note, if there is an internal short, it will not show up here. Battery terminals are hot when running for a while. But I do not know if this is engine heat, or a indication of a large current draw / charge. It is an air cooled Buell in the summer in SC.....
I shook the tar out of the battery cables with bike running. If it is break, then I cannot seem to re-produce it. Same goes with every other wire I can find.
New information. Last time it shut down, it was 15 minutes into a ride. Way past the closed loop change I thought was a factor. Obviously a read herring on my part....
I being in South Carolina has the advantage that I ride year round (down to 20 degree F or ice - which ever is first). I average 7k - 8k miles a year. The battery is only a year old, but it gets used (and vibrated) a lot.
Sooo.. I will buy some new fuses today and a new battery (may not be needed, but I have 8,000 miles on this battery so a new one is not unreasonable). I will also strip down the repair I made lat year. maybe I missed a pair of wires. The harness was pretty shredded and I had 8 - 10 wires bare.
Million $ question. What could cause the bike to need to wait ~2 minutes before re-firing? It has done this 5 times so far and each time it needs about 2 minutes before it recovers. It sounds like an overload protection but I do not know to what as ignition module would not kill the lights and computer as well....
thanks again for the comments and ideas. more are always better.
I'll post an update tomorrow after I have the new battery and the new fuses. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 01:12 pm: |
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quote:Battery terminals are hot when running for a while...
Aah, that's a good clue. I'd think that the battery posts should not be significantly hotter than other metal parts in the immediate area excluding the engine of course. Perhaps what's happening is as the battery heats up from running after x minutes, an internal short develops in the battery causing the bike to shut down.
This kind of short would apparently shunt the output of the alternator too, preventing the bike from running on the alternator output as what might happen if the battery developed an internal "open circuit".
So, if you think this is a plausible explanation, perhaps you could take the battery to a shop and have it load tested, maybe with an external heat source applied during the test. |
Moarant
| | Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 08:45 pm: |
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Thanks again Sparky. The help is much appreciated.
I thought the hot terminals was odd. But was not sure it was due to a short and high current draw or battery defect. Or just the heat of the engine. But a short should have blown fuses....
I ordered a new battery today. Will have it in the morning. The cost of the battery is less than the time / frustration of running down the problem list. Full time engineering research job, part time mechanical engineering thesis (defend in December) two kids, and a wife. Stress is a way of life.
If this does not work, I'm picking up a set of new relays (relatively cheap). Yeah, throwing parts at it is probably not the most rational solution, but it is easiest. I just hope my faculty advisory committee does not read this. They may revoke my mechanical degrees for lack of proper problem solving!
A question: I have not found any reference to any type of thermal switch on the electrical system. Not on the bike or in my shop manual. If there was one, it might be the guilty party.
And yes, I know - not much point in owning a shop manual if you throw parts at the bike....
If all this fails it looks like I'll be burning a day going through chapter 7 testing resistance levels and current draws....
thanks again!
michael |
Moarant
| | Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 06:19 am: |
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Solved:
Issue was the battery. Replaced battery and running fine for a week. |
Johan
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 06:02 am: |
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I got so happy when I read this post. It's the post I've been looking for. I have the same problem (power off and clock is resetted) and I registered just to add my observations on what seem to be the same problem.
It started two years ago, one day when the weather was wet. I started it and the bike went dead. Two minutes later, power got back.
When I could use it for some weeks, until I got the problem back. Most of the time, power is just cut off for a second but sometimes the bike dies.
Now, it's more frequent and it a real problem, so I have to solve it. It's very sensitive while cold and I get it often.
It usually helped by removing the seat and move around the ECU. Maybe that moved the battery as well.
I noticed the headlights intensity go down before I get the problem. That's when I started suspecting the battery. But it was also interesting to read about the wire bundle under the lights can cause problems.
I read in some forums that batteries in Buells has a tough live, being right behind the rear cylinder and all, and battery water might evaporate.
I'll start with replacing the battery. It's old anyway and have been completely discharged once. |
Johan
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 03:26 pm: |
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New battery seemed to make the difference. 
My question now are what battery does well for a Buell? The one I had was HD original. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 05:27 pm: |
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Johan, the HD battery is pretty good. Get whatever battery you want, just make sure it is sealed, as the battery lays on its side and unsealed batteries will leak. I recommend the HD battery as it isn't that much of a higher price vs a Yusa or similar aftermarket battery (at least here in the US), and you know for sure it will fit, unlike some aftermarket batteries which are a tad too big.
Also, be sure to check the "77" connector under the front pulley guard. Do a search on here, it can cause charging issues on the older XB bikes.  |
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