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Mainer
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 12:06 pm: | 
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Mainer here again - with the buell from h-e-double-l, aka 2000 x1.
So here it is- I went to drive the kankamangus highway yesterday. When I went to start it didnt have enough umph to fire it up, so I put the booster on it and it started right up. I thought it was kinda funny, but I haven't been able to ride in about 2 weeks due to rain (no heckling please). So, off I went...about 15 miles into it the check engine light comes on. Then about 5 more miles and the speedo cuts out then completely dies. Then the tach. Then all my lights. Then the bike starts running like it is on one cylinder. I aborted the mission and started heading back but the bike was running so bad that I could barely keep it going down the road. And then, as the icing on the cake, about 2 miles later she shuts down completely. No juice to even fire the fuel pump......
So, I called my wife and she came and got me. (That has got to be the worst as my riding group is 100% honda. Boy, they were rough on me)
Got home, threw the charger on it, and started it up. Ran fine. The voltage with a surface charge was 12v at the terminals. After starting and whilst running, the voltage was 10v and dropping.
Can someone guide me to what I need to do? I am good at wrenching but there must be a comman problem...
Pete from Maine |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 12:55 pm: |
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Sounds like a dead stator to me... Pop off the derby cover and take a deeeeep whiff and report back to us...
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Mainer
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 06:39 pm: |
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the "derby cover" is the large alum. housing that is attached by hex bolts? I took an ohm meter across the terminals as the manual stated and I have 0.0 to 0.1 ohms, they say that this makes the stator fail. I also checked it as the manual says by checking one terminal to ground, I had inf. ohms or no continutity.
Does this mean I do have a bad stator?
Thanks Guys |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:52 am: |
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The derby cover is the smaller cover over the clutch... 4 torx on a tuber, three on an XB. You could use the primary chain tension inspection cover as well. When the stator shorts, the insulation and gear oil burn, and it stinks like crazy. So thats probably the easiest "positive diagnosis" test.
Sounds like you are not shorted to ground, which is one failure mode, so you can rule that out. The stator can also short to itself though, which would explain the really low (.1) reading. The problem is that meters have a hard time measuring accurately that low, so at .1 ohms your meter may be off by a factor of 2x or more. .1 ohms is the typical resistance of a set of test leads.
So do the sniff test, thats easy. Then fire up the bike with the stator unplugged and measure the AC volts coming off those two stator leads (on the stator side, not the voltage regulator side). That should let you finish off the diagnosis. I still suspect its a bad stator, but you have not proven it yet. |
Rennygreg
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 04:22 pm: |
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I had the same exact problem on my 99 S3, you need a volt regulator, i've got an extra one they retail for 115 i'll sell it to ya for 50 plus S n H |
Mainer
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 08:20 pm: |
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stator output @ 2k rpm is 54 +/- VAC I guess that the stator is OK??? Didn't do the whiff-it test yet, but I guess that I dont need to. When running I am at 11 vDC at the battery terminals and dropping. Voltage reg dead? Any way to test this for sure before I just replace?
Thanks |
Mainer
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 09:02 pm: |
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OK- did the VR Bleed test and my test light lit up on one side. My question is- as I have NO cash left to fix this bike anymore- is can I safely assume that after this test I need a VR? PLEASE chime in!!
Thanks.
PS -I need a ride home, I cant push it anymore. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 09:06 pm: |
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and anotherquick question- will the regulators designed to fit the Blast 98 on work with mine? Thanks |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 11:16 am: |
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Bad VR would be my best guess based on what you describe so far. I don't know if the blast part will swap over. If it has the right number of holes in the plug, it probably would. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 07:56 pm: |
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I REALLY NEED SOME HELP HERE. My friend let me borrow a VR to see if that is the issue. I installed it, and the charging voltage is still 12.1v. The borrowed one passes the bleed test, but there is no difference. ARGH. Let me go thru what I did- VR bleed test- test light lights up on one terminal. Stator checked by metering ACv at 2k rpm- 45-50 VAC. Next, I metered the stator- 0.000-0.001 ohms. Next I checked the VR ground- good. Next the lead from the VR to the circiut breaker- OK- next continuity to the positive term at battery- OK.
Am I missing something???? I am totaly at the end of my rope and have no dough to take it to the dealer. IF YOU CAN, please help!!! Thanks |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:10 pm: |
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A dead battery will absorb excess current and use it to charge... so until the battery is charged, I would not panic yet.
Is it 12.1 volts and slowly climbing? You should be able to watch it go up at least a little in 5 minutes of idling. And when you kill the motor, does the voltage suddenly drop? That means the thing is getting juice from the stator while the bike is running, and not getting juice while it is not, which suggests things might be OK.
A screwed up battery can make the voltage tests whacko as well. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:28 pm: |
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Ok so it hovers at 11.8 v while idling. It slowly goes down... When you shut the bike off it jumps back to 12.2. I would say that it is not getting any juice from the charging system. What next? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:16 pm: |
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Pop off the derby cover or primary chain inspection cover and take a sniff...
I was *very* methodical when I had this problem, and at the end of the day, I replaced the stator, VR, and battery. I can't (keep in mind I have a degree in electrical engineering) explain why the three would fail together, but they did. At some point, each tested fine while debugging, but at some point, each failed at the end of the day.
Also check the connector between the VR and Stator, and the connections to ground.
It might just be a cascading failure though... which I know is not what you want to hear, its not what I wanted to hear either... |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:22 am: |
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From memory, here is what I went through on my 2000 M2. This wasn't a repeatable scenario, and my goal was to get my bike working, so it's not scientific. That said, I am pretty methodical whatever I do, so it's not junk either.
I started with the "no charging" symptom. Bike gradually turned over softer and softer, and one day would not turn over at all. Battery, right?
So I trickle charged the battery, and it start and ran fine. For about 50 miles, then was dead again. Hmmm... that doesn't sound like the battery, the charging system should have worked like the trickle charger... it hold a charge over night, but "shut down and start back up" should work fine.
So I did the stator tests (resistance pin to pin and resistance pin to ground and voltage output when running). All tested perfectly.
Shrug. OK, it's a 5+ year old motorcycle battery... If it's not dead now, it'll be dead soon. Replace it. Still have a problem.
Oh, well it must be the VR then, as the stator tests fine. Replace the VR. Still have a problem.
Test the stator again, exact same test I did before. Whats this? Shorted to ground? Stinky fluid? Oh bother, replace the stator.
Bike (obviously) fixed! Doh! I think to myself, waste of a good VR. So I swap back my original, planning to sell the new one to somebody who really needs one.
Whats this? The problem is back? Oh well, put the new VR back on and keep riding.
So the VR was clearly toast. The stator was clearly toast (bubbled and burnt insulation and foul smells and all). The battery was also toast (it would not hold a charge on my bench from the trickle charger).
This was a good lesson for me... as if I had taken the bike to a dealer, and they told me all three were bad, I would no doubt have come running to badweb ranting about what idiots Harley techs are... providing all sorts of useful facts proving it, and I would have been completely wrong.
I can come up with some weak hypothesis why it may happen this way... reasonable but not particularly compelling.
This is a shunt type regulator system. Meaning whatever power the battery does not absorb is shunted right to ground through the VR and the stator.
So start with a failing battery. It can "fail open" as well as "fail to a short". If it "fails open" and fails to absorb power (acting like a big spring to dampen the system), then extra power gets shunted to ground through some SCR's in the voltage regulator. So now all of a sudden, the VR is working a lot harder (and it has a hard job already).
Likewise, the other place the extra power gets dissipated is in the windings of the stator itself. So it, which also already has a hard job, is living harder.
So with a bad battery under the right circumstances, both the VR and the Stator are now possibly working well outside their design parameters.
The other possibility I could think of is a problem that starts with the infamous 77 connector (the one between the stator and the VR). If that is intermittent on a heavy current flow and a highly inductive load (which it is), you could have some insanely high voltage spikes. I could imagine that killing voltage regulators and stators.
Anyway, just thinking out loud for the archives... |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:24 am: |
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(and also for the record, I am not saying go out and replace everything. I am just saying that if you are doing things right, and after you "fix" one thing and something else that was working before now isn't, you aren't alone. Don't replace anything that isn't broken, but don't be shy about re-testing things that once tested good). |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:01 am: |
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FWIW, the owner of the shop where I take all my business tells me that his SOP when a customer brings in a bike with a charging problem is to replace battery, stator and VR as a set. His experience (over the last 30 years or so) has been that doing it any other way more often than not results in the customer bringing the bike back with a recurrence of the problem.
Just another data point...
rt |
Pammy
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:07 am: |
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If the battery is really old and suspect, nothing else you check will matter. First things first. The battery HAS to be good before you go any farther.
The charging system doesn't really add anything (it barely keeps up with the draw from the bike) until the RPM's are up around 2000. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:43 pm: |
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ok- So I got a NEW battery today and will recheck in the AM after it has charged.
Reep- I did the stink test- the oil smells like oil and exaust mixed together..but not so much like burnt oil... I rechecked the stator, resistance between the two terminals- 0.000 to 0.001 - according to the manual it says that that indicates a BAD stator, the resistance needs to be 0.003-0.005
Thoughts? I will repost tomarrow after the battery is installed (oh yea and I get out of work)
Thanks |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:51 pm: |
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I think you can't afford a meter that is more accurate then .01 ohms.  For the record, I can't either.
That sounds like a happy stator smell. If it was bad, you would know it.
Go back to testing the bike running and measure the AC voltage across the pins on the stator output, and see if its still in spec. I think the manual gives it... and its something like 65 volts. It should increase in voltage with faster revs.
That'll isolate the stator. If it's putting out volts, it should be charging the system.
My bike with an older battery hovers in the 11 volt range with the bike off, and the 13 volt range with the bike on... and voltage should climb slightly with rev's relative to idle. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 08:40 pm: |
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put in a new battery. 12.7v and after start up 11.5v rev it up to 2-3k no change. shut it off back up to 12.7v So I rechecked the stator, 51 vac at 2k, within the spec from the manual. Metering the volts off the vr 1-2v dc. I mentioned that my friend let me borrow his vr off his sportster. It has the same part number as mine. The same output volts as mine 1-2v dc.
I am at the end of my rope and I think that we are going to have a buell funeral soon. PLEASE HELP. 2 bad vr's? am i missing something?
thanks |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 10:13 pm: |
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Based on the voltage readings, I would say it's the VR.
But the swap test suggests otherwise.
Thats a stumper.
How are the grounds? And the connector between the stator and the VR?
Any other "funny things" going on with the bike? Do all the guages and accessories work right? Anything after market?
Did you put on the upgraded front exhaust mount? (you should). When you did, and relocated the VR in the process, did you make sure it had a good metal to metal ground? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 02:52 am: |
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Maybe you could try disconnecting the headlight before testing the battery voltage with the engine running. It is a fairly big current drain. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 07:12 am: |
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when I test the vr I take the bullet connector-1 wire- and meter that and a ground. This is the correct way to measure output voltage? Also, it appears that the vr only gets it ground from the other wire that screws onto the back. (the other two mounting screws contact the painted top of the regulator.
I metered the pos and neg wires for resistance and there is 0 ohms, suggesting that thoes wires are ok.
Just to double check-Reep- I get what you are saying regarding a meter that reads the resitance down to .001 ohms....but the manual wants you to check the stator 2 ways...one is short to ground ans one is resistance between the two terminals. I do not have a short to ground, but the two terminals read 0.000 . Are you saying that that second test is not an indicator as to a bad stator? Also, if my stator is putting out 50vac @ 2k rpm than my stator is good?
Given the situation, I am tempted to buy a new BUELL vr and try it. Logicly I cannot see anything else if you isolate each component...
Pete |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 09:53 am: |
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The stator is simply a long piece or wire wound in a particular pattern. When you move a magnet through that coil (the magnets are on your rotor cup) it induces a current into the wire (and resists the magnet moving).
So when you measure pin to pin on the stator, you are really just measuring the resistance of a long single piece of wire. I thought the spec was something like .4 ohms, and that feels intuitively right, but the manual will have the right value.
I suspect a meter that reads down to .001 ohms was either insanely expensive, or is lying about how accurate it is , but to be honest I am guessing about accuracy (based on a lot of experience and intuition, but still guessing).
I suspect a cheap harbor freight meter is probably accurate down to .1 ohms (so you can trust .1 through .9, and .01 through .09 is random noise). A good fluke or something might be making decent guesses at the .01-.09 level, but I would be suspect even of that.
I think even just the meter test leads typically have .2 ohms or so of resistance, which the meter should measure accurately.
So for the test... I think two things. First, I think your meter is lying. The test leads themselves should measure some resistance... My trusty Fluke 77 (the old low end of the high end meter market) reads .3 ohms for lead to lead short. My $6 harbor freight meter reads (after I give it what feels like a week to get the measurement) 2 ohms (LOL).
So if the manual says .4 ohms is a good stator, then I expect to see about .7 (.4 + .3) on my meter when I test the stator. Not .001.
But you sort of bypassed all that when you measured the stator output. And it sounds like your stator is outputting fine, at least in terms of voltage. It would be interesting to try and test it under a load... you could do that by jumping the wires to a 100 watt light bulb. A good stator ought to be able to light that bulb nice and bright. That would be a valid load test, and something I would be inclined to do just because it is easy and it appeals to my inner geek.
Your problem with measuring the VR (and the problem that makes these electrical problems such a royal PITA) is that no part of the system *can* stand completely alone. You can test around the edges, but it would take specialized simulation equipment to test everything for sure.
The stator is pumping out voltage and current, right into the VR and battery. So the light bulb test is a decent "load and voltage" test for it. If it can bring a 100 watt light bulb up to half brightness, it is probably good.
The VR, when it detects voltage is above 13.2 or so volts, just throws an eletronic switch (via an SCR) and reroutes the power from going to the battery to being dumped straight to ground (a shunt regulator). It sounds more crazy then it is, the more time you actually start trying to design a cost effective VR to handle this kind of current, the more sense a shunt regulator starts to make.
(remember the stator is putting out AC volts, not DC, and is changing from a positive wave to a negative wave every time the crank turns around).
So the VR can be thought of as a switch that stays open (letting the volts go to the battery) until the volts exceed 13.2 volts. At that point, the switch closes itself and just dumps the stator power right to ground (putting heat in the VR and stator). The crank continues its revolution and drops the voltage back to zero, the switch resets, and we start over.
The battery acts like a big spring. So as the stator is trying to climb in voltage, the battery is absorbing more and more current (as it needs it), keeping the voltage from climbing.
(Volts = Current times Resistance. A battery changes resistance to try and maintain a constant voltage).
At some point, you are dumping so much current into the battery that it can't absorb any more, and it lets the voltage climb, which is what trips the voltage regulator switch. The battery cries "no mas!" and the VR obliges.
So once you disconnect the VR from the stator, you aren't really testing anything meaningful anymore, at least not with regards to the full system operating as intended.
When the manual tells you to measure VR pins with the ignition on, it is still a useful excercise though. The VR is just this "smart switch" made up of electronic components. And when you look at it as a "black box" that isn't "blowed up" it'll behave one way (which is what the manual no doubt says to test for). When it is "all blowed up", it may measure another way. Though it probably depends on which little part in there you let the smoke out of. Sometimes the test will be conclusive, sometimes it will be ambiguous.
Then factor in, at least in my case, and as experienced by Road Thing and his mechanic, that sometimes you get these intermittent cascading failures... so you can't ever quite trust any one test 
So all this may be less then helpful besides explaining why sometimes these problems are such a PITA to resolve.
You and my labor is free... but if I was a shop, burning up $80 an hour in shop rates, I think the Road Thing approach makes sense. By the time things go wrong, you probably aren't far from needing a new battery regardless. And something else is likely broken, so you would be replacing a $110 VR or a $150 stator anyway (or whatever they cost now).
So instead of playing whack a mole with the problem, you just buy all three, install all three in the $80 one hour shop rate, and know you can roll the bike out the door fixed. It makes a lot of sense... it is more cost effective to replace all three suspect components then spend the time hunting an intermittent failure, especially factoring in the "strand again and tow back" factor.
So if you want to do one more test, hook that stator to a light bulb and see if you can't light that sucker up. It should be half as bright (60 V AC) as it would be plugged into the wall (120V AC). A poor mans load test. Better yet, a 300 watt halogen work light or two. That could actually approach a full and proper load test.
Or just decide "I'm sick of thinking" and go get a new stator and VR, bolt them up, and go back to riding... I hate throwing away good parts blindly as much as anyone... but you are still saving money by doing it yourself.
If you do that, if I were you, I would use the new higher XB torque spec on that crank nut. I followed the tuber spec to the letter (red lock tite and all), and mine came loose after a week. |
Mainer
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:05 pm: |
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stuck working today so after work I will light bulb the stator- that is a great test reep thanks.
As far as the meter goes- I totaly agree and understand what you are talking about. My concern was that I meter the stator and get (essentialy) 0 ohms. The manual stated +/- .4 ohms so I figured that the stator was bad. I was baffled though because the stator was putting out the spec voltage.
I checked the rectifier/regulator hooked up and running on the bike, minus the black positive output wire, which at 2k rpm read on both stators 1.5-2 vdc.
At this point I think that I am going to say the hell with this and buy a new VR. If that doesnt work than I am going to buy a new Stator (which I am scared about putting in it looks like quite the job)
IF THAT DOESN'T WORK THAN I am going to do a big kahuna dumpster with the bike into the ocean.RIP
Pete |
Mainer
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:07 pm: |
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I forgot to mention- the last guy who had this bike had the exact issue- he had replaced the plugs, wires, ecm, and then put a new battery in it...and then said "ship it" Thats when I came in and bought it....sucker...lol |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:39 pm: |
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LOL. At least you are fixing things that might be broken |
Mainer
| | Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 09:54 pm: |
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fixed it was a bad vr....go figure.... |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 - 11:57 am: |
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Thanks for the update, good to know how it finally got resolved... |
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