| Author | Message | ||
     Macbuell |
The way I see it Buell is guilty of poor communication. If this is based on the 1125R production model why not say exactly that ... that the 1125RR is an 1125R production motorcycle with significant AMA approved modifications to make the bike a turn key AMA Superbike ready for privateer racers. If that's what it is, just say that in crystal clear terms to avoid any confusion even from the dumbest of individuals (your typical SQUID). If the 1125RR is based on a yet to be released motorcycle, they should have released the street legal version prior to the race version. If there is no street legal version of the 1125RR, then the critics have grounds for their complaints. To me it is relatively easy to see that this effort is based on the 1125R production bike but Buell did a very poor job of making that clear to everyone and anyone. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Mac: You may have nailed the crux of the issue. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It is different, if the "non production parts" are not prohibited under the rules on what non production parts can and can't be used. Thanks for the info on the cranks. What, exactly, does "alternate supplier" mean? Was it really a part that shows up as a general rule in stock bikes and was not tweaked to be a special race part. Not a bad way to cheat if they were... create two suppliers for every important part on the bike. Make one cost effective, make the other "premium race". Cryo treatments, better raw materials, better tolerance controls, hand finish and inspection. But include both on "stock" bikes popcorn style. So one in every 10,000 GSXR-1000's get the "magic crank". And make sure, that it just so happens, the bike you race in superbike "accidentally" had all the different good parts. What luck!  It sounds like the frustration is with a semantics. Which is why the rules say more then just "production bikes", they go on to define exactly what they mean when they say "production bikes". The term "production bikes" alone is *useless* without the (supplied) very precise definition. That definition does not include "ordering numbers". The 1125RR clearly meets the rules for "production bikes" as defined in the rules. To apply *your* definition of "production" bike to *their* rules is silly. If thats the case, I want to loan you a $1 for $1, and when you go to pay it back, tell you that $1 changed to mean 1,000,000 euros. It's just silly on its face. The 1125R is a fully street legal homologated bike legal to race in Superbike. The 1125RR is an 1125R with a suite of pre-installed modifications which all meet the rules, and is also fully legal to race in superbike. Which statement makes more common sense:
I have a history of giving people too much credit for being able to think rationally... maybe I am wrong again here... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Now up at motorcycledaily.com: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/16july09_buell_1125 r.htm "The bike is basically a heavily modified 1125R with many of the race-kit components we showed you in our ride report of the 1125R racer." | ||
| Spike |
Can you call Buell and tell them that they don't know what bikes they're selling? Buell on the 1125RR:
Buell seems to think they've introduced a new race-use only motorcycle that is intended for competition. You're telling me that they're mistaken and they've actually not introduced a motorcycle but simply modified the same street-certified motorcycle they introduced two years ago. Come on Bill, read the press release. Are you really telling me that I'm the one redefining words here? | ||
| Greenlantern |
To me it is relatively easy to see that this effort is based on the 1125R production bike but Buell did a very poor job of making that clear to everyone and anyone. Your point is valid, But remember it is just a press release and a press release is usually used to dazzle potential customers, and not to report to the already converted. July 16, 2009 East Troy Wisconsin, Today Buell's Henry Duga told management that he was "sick and tired" of lugging all this crap around in his van. He then stated " Would it kill you guys to run the assembly line a few extra hours and put these damn things together here?" which was followed by " I have a ****ing *****oad of returned passenger pegs/headlights and belt pulleys overflowing out of the ****amn thing ....I CAN'T EVEN SET MY FREAKING COFFEE CUP DOWN!" Exasperated, he then threw his hands up in the air and walked out of the room. Buell Technicians quickly ran to the parts shed and scooped up racing kits by the arm loads and got to work least Henry returned! One "on his toes tech" then stenciled a second "R" on the motorcycles so that corporate would be able to justify the costs and also avoid a encounter with the volatile Mr. Duga. While I would enjoy a press release like that, I don't think it would fly with corporate. (Message edited by greenlantern on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Spatten1 |
Not a bad way to cheat if they were... create two suppliers for every important part on the bike. Make one cost effective, make the other "premium race". Cryo treatments, better raw materials, better tolerance controls, hand finish and inspection. But include both on "stock" bikes popcorn style. So one in every 10,000 GSXR-1000's get the "magic crank". AMA produced no evidence of anything like that whatsoever. Every physical property of the crank was identical to the part that was in the stock bike AMA broke down and the ones that they got off the shelves at the Suzuki warehouse. There was weeks and much $ spent looking for some variance, none was found at all. All manufactures, in every industry have alternate suppliers and generally will purchase from more than one in case something goes wrong at one supplier, they can get up to speed immediatly without holding up the production line. Suzuki claimed that this supplier was listed in all of their documentation. AMA/DMG did not argue the point at all, and they did not show any evidence from their testing that showed a difference in the part. AMA just kept saying that the way of marking the part was different, period, with no consideration for Suzuki's claims, which seemed to be pretty much ignored. If you know of special properties the Mladin crank had, please email Kevin Cameron at Cycle World, he'd love to know about it so he can revise his previously published opinions. | ||
| Hootowl |
The two statements are not incompatible. They did release a race use only motorcycle. It is a modified 1125R production motorcycle. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
We know from the press release that they BIKE is intended to be "Race Only" and "Not Street Legal", but do we KNOW that the FRAME is not. Given the litigious environment in a post bike tuner lawsuit environment, it would appear that the clarification had to be made so that Joe Lunch Bucket with $40,000 couldn't buy a race prepped bike that doesn't comply with EPA standards and ride it on the street. This is why you need a race license to buy race parts. WE bought and used the "race only" parts on the street and subjected BMC to legal risk. My guess is that it's a stock frame with a special VIN that insures that it can't be registered not because the frame is not "stock" but to keep BMC out of legal hock for bikes that don't comply with EPA and legal requirements. If the finished product complies with the rules, there is no real advantage over taking one off the floor and doing the modifications Buell has done. The end product is EQUAL and within the rules. Now, this DOES open the door for the OTHER companies to package a bike similarly. If the did this, would Buell be OK? I'll agree, though, that given the scrutiny Buell has received in the 2009 race season, this will be seen as nothing more than another benefit to Buell over the competition granted by DMG. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'll agree, though, that given the scrutiny Buell has received in the 2009 race season, this will be seen as nothing more than another benefit to Buell over the competition granted by DMG. Yeah, it's just a ••••••• PR move with an otherwise exciting effort. Go Buell! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Repeating an earlier post of mine from a duplicate thread: "There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary." Brendan Behan Irish author & dramatist (1923 - 1964) | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"AMA Pro Racing, in a separate announcement, stated the 1125RR is approved for use in the class." You can cry foul, you can get mad as all get out, you can say Buell is cheating... But the bottom line is the sanctioning body has deemed the 1125RR LEGAL for racing. Argument over. Now is there a tail (Buell) wagging the dog (AMA) thing going on??? Very unlikely that 26 year old Buell with approximately 200 employees and pennies for a race budget (compaired to the big 4) could pull that off... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Because the 1125RR includes a non EPA legal exhaust, it would be illegal to sell it as anything but a race bike. It is a race bike. Remember, the great state of California fined "Power Commander" eleventy billion dollars for violating EPA rules for street bikes. It would be illegal (federal rules, not DMG rules) for Buell to call this anything but a race bike. (and for the record, I'm only arguing about this because it is fun... no ill feelings towards anyone...) | ||
| Rfischer |
The bikes will go out the door with MSO's carrying the declaration: "for race use only; may not be registered for street use" or words to that effect. As are new Husaberg 450/570's, Gas-Gas, and other strictly off-road, non-EPA/DOT compliant bikes. The RR's VINs will also have specific nomenclature to identify them lest a clever lad use a title service such as operates out of NH to get a non-restricted document to register the bike for road use. However, as with all things, where there's a will there's a way... | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Spike and Liquorwhere, I get it. You want a ruined streetbike anyone can buy off the dealer shelf. Except its not really off the shelf, as you will go and change the ECM and Exhaust before you burn up the first tank of gas. Oh, and you may have to add the steering damper, and you will certainly have to respring and revalve the suspension for your weight and riding style. And safety wire everything. And add many and sundary quick disconnects for rational pit stops. And frame sliders. And race body work. Well since you addressed me personally in the post, I will tell you that you don't have a clue what I want. I have never added safety wire to a street bike, nor a steering dampener, and only one shock for my X1 revalved because it was leaking and I found a guy that can rebuild a shock that Buell said was "non rebuildable" so there ya go. What I want, would be for HD/Buell to stop pu$$y footing around and release a bike that is up to the task against the european and japanese competition...street legal, just like the Duc or any other rice burner, make a factory team, and go race...in WSBK because DMG SUCKS ASS...and I don't care if they don't grant this wish...and I don't care if you think you know what I was trying to get at...I really don't. I don't dislike Buell, I love the bike and the company, I have two, and three HD products, and two honda products, I have grown up on these companies...but I have a low tolerance for BS, and that is what this move is, like the destroyer, like the XBRR is....but anyway, I am too busy to argue the point anymore, and I don't really care.....but I will tell you that if I can unload my XB, I will be looking for an RC51 to make into a streetfighter, because I need a new project...so there ya go. Have a good day. | ||
| Bads1 |
Well since you addressed me personally in the post, I will tell you that you don't have a clue what I want. I have never added safety wire to a street bike, nor a steering dampener, and only one shock for my X1 revalved because it was leaking and I found a guy that can rebuild a shock that Buell said was "non rebuildable" so there ya go. What I want, would be for HD/Buell to stop pu$$y footing around and release a bike that is up to the task against the european and japanese competition...street legal, just like the Duc or any other rice burner, make a factory team, and go race...in WSBK because DMG SUCKS ASS...and I don't care if they don't grant this wish...and I don't care if you think you know what I was trying to get at...I really don't. I don't dislike Buell, I love the bike and the company, I have two, and three HD products, and two honda products, I have grown up on these companies...but I have a low tolerance for BS, and that is what this move is, like the destroyer, like the XBRR is....but anyway, I am too busy to argue the point anymore, and I don't really care.....but I will tell you that if I can unload my XB, I will be looking for an RC51 to make into a streetfighter, because I need a new project...so there ya go. Have a good day. Buell has made a bike in the 1125R that can to some degree compete in Superbike. Shawn Higbee has run in the top ten plenty on a basically stock bike to meet Daytona Sportbike. And Suzuki and the like do not make a bike on the showroom floor that can Compete in Superbike. And go race WSB??? Dude get real no showroom stock bike can compete in WSB none the less even AMA'a sanctioned Superbikes of last year. GET A CLUE!!! You don't get it. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Oh god no, don't sell your xb!! We'll do anything, even agree with you. Seriously, WTF does that have to do with the 1125rr? | ||
| Ducxl |
They're growing in leaps and bounds.They're marketing a SUPERBIKE!!!! For SUPERBIKE RACING! Ducati does a street going "R" model of course. NOW BMC has made it.In a few years we may be able to purchase a street going PREMIUM QUALITY "RR".I think so NOW | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Oh god no, don't sell your xb!! We'll do anything, even agree with you. Seriously, WTF does that have to do with the 1125rr? Seriously go F yourself....I could care less if you disagree with me, I have an X1,and an XB, and I would like a new project, and it has nothing to do with the 1125RR, and you are dick, and that has nothing to do with the 1125RR either, but it is so true. So fu*k off...how is that? I don't care if you don't agree, I don't care about you. Actually this is just a waste of time......g'day. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Damn, all this anger and we AREN'T EVEN TALKING POLITICS !!!!! | ||
| Chadr81 |
Liquor - If it's such a waste of time, why do you keep coming back to post? People need to calm down on here a little bit. Go for a ride, beat off in the bathroom, whatever you have to do to take it down a couple notches... it's just not worth getting all worked up about. You guys really just make me shake my head and laugh sometimes. (Message edited by chadr81 on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Froggy |
I heard Obama approves of the 1125RR. | ||
| Court |
>>>>sound and fury Act 5, Scene 5 - Hamlet Remind me to tell you what may be the funniest Buell story of all time next time our paths cross. I am entertained by the frequent use of phrase such as "I am sure", "I know" and so forth. I read a great deal but never have I gleaned so much, so quickly from 404 words. Well done. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Liquor, Why the hostility? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
so they kill the dirt bike that could have market cross over to dual sport or super moto and a new customer base for Buell, but a bike that is never intended to see the street, with a 30K+ price tag gets a green light? I must admit that I dont understand the Design, Race, Production, Market, SELL disconnect. Somewhere something is Rotten in DenMark, and I am not sure it is with AMA or with E Troy. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I don't understand what the stink is all about...the sanctioning body has a formula and rules...all of the manufacturers have to abide by them or risk getting caught cheating.. There is a difference in the formula from the OLD method...back in the old days, the manufacturers built "works" racers from unobtainium and sold "replicas" made of plastic and pig iron to the "public"...and a handful of "street" run bikes to make the minimum quantity "production" runs. The one that comes to my mind is the Suzuki Gamma...if anyone even knows what I'm talking about...the "street" version was not in the same ballpark as the factory race bikes...but they built and sold some just so they could race the Gamma. In those days it was race bike first..."street" bike second. Buell clearly has taken a STREET bike and modified it for racing use... | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you aren't adding all that crap, you can't race that bike on the track, not even in regional classes. It won't pass tech. That's my point. Neither the GSXR-1000 or the 1125R can pass tech for anything but a novice oriented "limited passing" track day. The GSXR-1000 with all the stuff I mention could race competitively, as can the 1125RR. Both have diverged about the same amount from stock. The GSXR will probably make more power, but I bet the 1125RR can run *very* competitively with it. The inline four has advantages in cost and pumping capabilities, the 1125R has a much more advanced valvetrain and a packaging advantages in motor and brakes that translate to a handling advantage. Sounds like a formula for a great race to me... closely matched bikes, one with a little better power, the other with a little better handling. The only BS factor I see is some kind of delusional belief by 22 year old sportbike riders that jumping on a showroom stock R1 and riding it on the street is even remotely comparable to anything happening in an AMA superbike races. I like the fact that Buell builds affordable bikes tuned for effective use on streets. I dislike the Japanese inline fours (yes, I owned one) because they have optimized the bike for the track at the expense of streetability (IMHO, YMMV). The fact that Buell built a great streetbike (the 1125R) and also offers a race variation of it already modified to meet current race rules (the 1125RR), and offers it to any privateer, seems like the lowest BS ratio of any of the brands. The RC51 is, AFAIK, a great bike. I wonder why Honda dropped it in favor of an inline four? The four makes more power. Why wouldn't you buy a 1000RR as your daily work commuter? Thats the BS factor to me. I try not to judge, but when I see somebody on an edgy sport bike riding on the street, I can only reach one of two conclusions: 1) They, and probably the bike, are total posers. Neither they nor their bikes are anywhere near what the "stickers and plastic" imply. 2) They are a fool for running $500 worth of tires that will be gone in 500 miles to drive back and forth to work at 55 mph or less. If I see an R6 or something at the track, that's a different story. A great track bike for sure. But one that is cheap for the track because there seems to be an infinite supply of fools and posers willing to suffer through riding them only on the street. (oops! Was that the out loud voice?  ) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Admittedly I am not the target audience for this. I dont watch WSB, I dont care about who is tops in the stats, i dont care about turn 6 at Laguna, I am never going to ride the 1125RR, I cant purchase one, and the same goes for the Italian/German/Japanese counter parts to this bike. I DONT CARE. Doubly so for Rossi or Stoner. I am tired of people thinking it matters to anything that happens on the street, in the real world, or even off pavement. How Rossi rides makes no wit of difference to your commute. And gonna draw some heat, but I dont care, its as releavant as NASCAR is to buying a family midsize sedan. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Pardon me for the hijack...Brian...I have not given up hope yet for the "modern thumper"...even though our visions are at opposite ends of the spectrum...I want a complete package streetfighter lightweight with power in the 70hp range and killer suspension...I so don't want to have to roll my own...that would be EXPENSIVE!!! | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Not feeling the love here. I don't see how this bike will be even remotely competitive in Superbike, and I don't see where the $40k went. Of course I only know what I read, and that ain't much. Right now the current 1125 puts out about 120 rwp. Plenty suds for a road bike, but the competition has about fifty hp more. Ducati has 73cc more displacement too. In addition, I don't know anything about the details of the suspension, and Showa is capable of building good stuff. But it looks like the bike has stock type components, not the Big Piston front fork and a racing shock. I hope I am wrong. The swing arm is worth $3k max. Of course $40K is chump change for an AMA superbike, but this bike nice as it is, doesn't look to me like it is headed for the podium any time soon. Now here is a great idea: Put some Ohlins on it, leave the chain,the mag wheels and maybe the cams and pistons, put the CR stuff on it, lights and all, bore it out to 1200cc, and put it out as the 1200CRs. Charge maybe $17K Redesign the pods, and you got yourself a real nice street fighter. just my. 02¢ |
