| Author | Message | ||
     Socoken |
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: Having a bike, less than a year old, lose over half of its value really sucks. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Except it didn't. From an MSRP of 11,999 to a street value of 6,000 is pretty close to me. If you buy that KBB garbage, I have an Avalanche I would love to sell you for KBB value. I would double my money! -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: F everyones 401k. Thats an investment that carries with it an inherit risk, not a motorcycle. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Umm, a motorcycle has a 99.99% chance of making you lose money. True, but on what ratio is important -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: This is a bummer to everyone who paid in full or pre ordered an 1125r, -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ I don't see how its a bummer to anyone except those that bought a bike and planned on selling it in a short period after. People that planned on doing that knew this would happen. This is why I didn't buy an 1125R right off the bat. It would of been hard for me at the time to buy new, and I knew a few years later I could get one at a fair price I could afford. Same could be said about ANY motor vehicle. I am trying to bite the bullet and get a brand new Pontiac, and again I don't give a crap if in 2 months its worth $5, as my driveway isn't a revolving door. Not looking for financial longevity in any purchase is just not a sound train of thought, especially in this economy. Short sightedness is not helping anyone out right now. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: I might not ever buy a brand new Buell after this. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Thats fine with us. Who is "Us?" Your life savings tied up in BMC? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: Im 26 and the 1125r is my second new one, and I have LOVED both bikes. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 23 here, on my second one (second one was used), and also loving both. I am planning on getting my 3rd soon -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: I knew my M2 wouldnt have a great resale, but I sold that for the same percentage after 7 years and 25,000 miles that my 1125 is worth after one year and 5,000 miles. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Depreciation hurts the first 3 years, after that, its pretty much flat. It didn't lose much value in the last 4 years, but then again tube frame Buell's tend to have horrible resale value partly due to the poor reliability. That is a pretty good point. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ quote: Does that seem like good news for Buell? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Does it seem like bad news? It doesnt seem good to me | ||
| Socoken |
At the end of the day, most people want to pay just what something is worth. If you are happy throwing money at things and that makes you happy regardless of how things turn out, great. The economy needs your huge disposable income. For those of us that feel as though the rug was pulled out from under our purchases, or we think about saving 5 THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR THE SAME PRODUCT, that is a bummer. | ||
| Ducdood9 |
It's simple supply and demand and no one was forced to buy the bike. Competitive I4 600 bikes sell for $8,999 new. Now we are seeing the reverse in supply and demand and the price is closer to its competition. | ||
| Clbofaz |
Just want to throw my economics degree's hat into the ring, so to speak, to hit on a few points that may enlighten but not un-anger, some. Most importantly - there are numerous factors at play here and the market is supporting it - for now and it seems to me that we (1125R owners) are just bystanders of the markets interactions. Think we're really bad off? Imagine the great depression - people were lining up around the block to get bread! +1 to anyone mentioning supply/demand - the US and its capitalistic structure was founded on the market supporting everything (from both sides) - especially innovation, which Buell represents. I think this concept can be supported if your on the left or right. For evidence - see the pet rock! +1 to mentions of depreciation - these are vehicles and are liabilities, not assets. They lose value at the onset of purchase due to asymmetric information and market fluctuations. The degree depends upon the relative power of each. Remember that when the 1125R was introduced the economy was shaky but few knew of the rough roads ahead. Now, we (and corps) are fully aware of that and adjusting our purchasing/pricing strategies accordingly. Also, all agents seek to move old inventory, the cases here are just more dramatic than most. Competition is influential as well, the motorcycle shops are competing with car companies who are getting bailouts and selling vehicles in mass for cheap. All of us are early movers/adopters. We pay to be the first and receive utility (=happiness) to be such. Call it bragging rights. Add this all together and I think we can see why it's happening. Will it endure - I doubt it, the US's current hiccup (and that's all it is) wont last. Think macroeconomics - long term, not the immediate few years. Its irritating but we are bystanders of our environment and sometimes that environment bites us in the keister. Just got to ride it out and endure! At least were not talking about buying a new home in Frisco the month we figured out the economy was tanking. I had a friend who did and let me tell you, that's something to be angry about. On the bright side, its looking like its rebounding and much of the absurdity we've witnessed will subside... ~C | ||
| Zac4mac |
20 years ago I wrote a check for 9500 bucks for a new Heritage Softail. I put another $2k in accessories. One year and 13k miles later, I had to sell... I got 6 grand for it. Real close to half of what I had in it. Nothing to see here, move along. Z | ||
| Badlionsfan |
A motorcycle is a toy, not an investment. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
+1 for Zac4mac! That's exactly how it works unless you happen to get lucky. Which is why I will NEVER buy a new vehicle / bike. I'll let some one else take the major hit to the wallet :-) | ||
| Chadhargis |
I see some people posting saying they paid over $13,000 for the bike. Is that with tax added in? You can't compare the taxes, as they are different in each state, county, city, etc. If you paid over retail (or even MSRP) then you paid WAY too much but the payoff is that you got to be one of the first to enjoy this fine machine. I'm still wanting one, but I've not pulled the trigger yet. The 1125 will be a track bike for me, with a high potential of getting tossed in the gravel trap. So I'm not dropping $7000 on one. When they are 5 years old with several thousand miles on them, I'll buy one for $4000 or so and track it out. I might find a crashed one with cosmetic damage too. I really would love to have one, but I'm not in the position to pay over $11k for an 1125, or any motorcycle for that matter. Now, if I had a wad of cash laying around that was disposable, then what the heck, it's only money. Spend it while you can, not taking a dime of it with you. I have three bikes, and all are paid for. The way I see it, if I were to sell any of them, the only thing I have to justify is whether I'd rather have the bike or the money. If the bike is worth more to me than the market will bare, then I'll keep the bike. I recently sold my Jeep Liberty diesel, not because I wanted to, but because I got an offer on it that was worth more to me than the Jeep was. Simple economics. I ended up buying a nicer vehicle and my payment went down $10 a month. I don't buy motorcycles, or any depreciating asset, with the intent of selling it. I but them to use them. If I liked the bike when I bought it, why wouldn't I like it years down the road? I've had my Ulysses coming up on 4 years. It's still a wonderful bike. Why would I want to sell it. It's paid for. All three bikes cost me $186 per year to insure, so that's not a big cost either (liability only on my track bike and scooter...full coverage on the Ulysses). I'm waiting to see if Buell ever puts the 1125 motor in the Ulysses. If they do, then I'll wait and see how it pans out. Let the early adopters pick the nits, and then I'll either jump on a new leftover model or a nice low mileage used unit. The downside is, I won't get to be one of the first to own the bike. That's a big thrill. And it's awesome to have people come up and say, "Ooooh, is that the new Buell? That's awesome! How's it run? Can I sit on it? Wow!".....There is a dollar value attached to that, and those willing to pay it should not expect to get that money back when they sell. | ||
| Slaughter |
I paid GOOD MONEY for a steak dinner last Saturday night. It was awesome. Garlic mashed potatoes and a salad with a really GOOD balsamic vinagrette dressing. Went for the Brownie Sundae dessert. Know what? Within 24 hours, its value went to shit. I wasted my money. | ||
| Hogs |
LoL Slaughter, Now thats what ya call Depreciation...  | ||
| Jdugger |
> Now thats what ya call Depreciation Nah, defecation. | ||
| Socoken |
20 years ago I wrote a check for 9500 bucks for a new Heritage Softail. I put another $2k in accessories. One year and 13k miles later, I had to sell... I got 6 grand for it. But my question is, was the dealer selling the same bike you paid 9500 for, for 5,000 one year later, brand new? I love my bike and I love BMC. I dont love dealers blowing these things out and taking away from the brand. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
I think of Buell wasn't stuck to Harleys hips and had there own little dealers we would see an improvement. Til then, you can expect that harley sells manager will give no more then 2 shits about Buell. They are scared of keeping them on the floor for too long since it's a much smaller market. | ||
| Ducdood9 |
If the 2010 bike is an improved model, and a possible price restructuring to match I think the dealers have every right and SHOULD clear those 08 models and possibly the 09 models out before the 10's hit. Don't it cost the dealers money for the bike to sit there? And don't the depreciate on the dealer just like a user? Tick Tick Tick | ||
| Court |
>>>Don't it cost the dealers money for the bike to sit there? And don't the depreciate on the dealer just like a user? That is possible. Not inevitable. I have an idea. It's radical. We'll see. | ||
| Oddball |
I figured a campaign would have to kick in quickly before the 2010's are announced. I hope it's an appealing idea Court, I really do. | ||
| Cscutt |
Well I understand both sides, I look at things differently, I picked up my 08 in Sept 2008, I paid $9550.99 ( still think it was a good price), I looked at no other bikes, this was the only bike for me. The price is what I expect to pay, and I bought it, I am very very happy, while I may turn an eye to other bikes, I will unless something changes, ride Buell's. Bottom line, I bought this bike to ride, if I want an investment I would have bought gold, but that would not have gotten me to and from work everyday. Honestly I don't care what my resale value is, I don't plan to sell, but I may pick up another 08 with these prices; but not as an investment, but to ride too. | ||
| Teach |
Court - You are teasing us!! | ||
| Towjam |
That would be called price fixing, sort of, that is against the law. Once a dealer buys the bike it their business what to sell if for. Unfortunately, this is incorrect. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/06/scot us_price_fixing.html | ||
| Court |
No secret, no tease. I think an innovative dealer could move all their 2008 and 2009 stock pronto. Part of the problem is that folks are conditioned to seeing price as a greater determinate in the buying equation than it is. While $$$ makes an easy topic for discussion . . . like wages at a job, sales prices usually gets subverted to several other strong motivators when it comes to major purchases. Few here live in the cheapest place they could find, drive the cheapest wheels they could find or send their kids to the cheapest schools they can find. Again . . . this is where "real life" becomes a behavioral trifurcation between theory and practice. Dealers, and companies, often talk "outside the box" but staff their "out of the box" efforts from within to alleviate fears of non-familiarity. Garth said it best . . "we fear change". True change requires wisdom, commitment and conviction. I think Dave and I should become a couple of those speaking guys at the dealer meetings. I see moving 2008 Buells as ZERO problem. That's my personal opinion as a construction worker. | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . that Supreme Court ruling is interesting. Things are a bit complicated here on the basis of privity. Harley-Davidson sells the motorcycle to the dealer. . .what the dealer does with it is pretty much (with many notable - See the case of the dealer who tried to dump Buells in Europe) up to the dealer. For a more complete understanding, which I got shoved in my brain for 4 years (BBA '77) studying Labor Law and Legislation, read up on the Clayton Anti-Trust Act which finally put some teeth (and brought personal liability to corporate officers) in the Robinson-Patman Act and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Crud that construction workers typically read on breaks. . . | ||
| Rfischer |
Be very careful reading too much into that very short, editorialized report about the 2007 US Supreme Court ruling on resale price maintenance. Without reading the actual Court Reasons for Decision, you cannot know definitively what the case stands for or whether in fact it overturned 96 years of received law and authority. I haven't read it, but would never in any case rely on a one paragraph article in Consumer Reports as the basis for changing my understanding of one of the bedrock principles of U.S. competition law. | ||
| Towjam |
Court, That Supreme Court ruling literally hit close to home for me. The plaintiff - Kay's Kloset, is a little mom n' pop shop here in the DFW area. At one point, they actually had won their argument then the SC overturned it. | ||
| Towjam |
A little more history on the case: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2007/02 /are_bargain_hunters_about_to_l.html?nav=rss_blog | ||
| Dynasport |
Back on topic, I personally don't think any dealer WANTS to sell an 1125r at $8000 or even $9000. They want to sell it for as much as they can get for it. Preferably MSRP plus fees. But, they don't want an almost two year old bike sitting on their floor. So, some of them are willing to sell the bike at a loss to at least free up the space and money tied up in it for something hopefully more profitable. I learned that while I was in college, but not from any class I took. I learned it working for a small business owner in a small college town. From time to time he would sell items for less than I knew they cost him. Finally I asked him why in the world he would do that. He explained that he would rather take the money he got from selling the product, even if it was less than he paid for it, to buy something he hoped to make a profit on because he had lost hope of making a profit on that particular item. He is actually a pretty wealthy man. As a side note, the items he was forced to discount so heavily were not stocked again. So, while 1125s selling for much less than what you paid for yours may tick you off, unless you are trying to sell yours it really doesn't affect you. You knew what you were paying when you bought it and you made the decision that it was worth it to you. Suck it up, as painful as it is. OTOH, what I see as the bigger issue is dealers who are losing money on the sale of every 1125 will NOT want to sell any more 1125s. Period. Just my .02 learned at a job making $3.35 an hour a long time ago. | ||
| Ducdood9 |
+1 Dynasport. I think that is also why we can look forward to an updated look in 2010. If they have a high demand design in 2010 they can mark up MSRP to say $14,999 and use some of those revenues to cover the losses on the excess aged inventory making a win win situation. Tough to sell three years of bikes parked alongside each other on the floor all looking the same.Your boss was right and it seems more dealers are catching on. Sell them bad boys now! | ||
| Clarkjw |
Thing is, most updates Buell has made to bikes over the years have been backward compatible. I imagine even a new look fairing/airbox/etc would be upgradable. I doesn't make sense to clear the bikes until after the dealer show. The value can't drop much lower. Buell doesn't have the pricing power to ask 15k for a the 1125r. You can get the Aprilia RSV4-S or BMW S100RR or Ducati 1198 for that price. Until Buell can compete at the superbike level and iron out reliability, many serious sport riders aren't gonna line up. | ||
| Doerman |
This reminds me of the early '80s when models 3-4 years old were on dealer floors of all brands. Id did not scare me from buying a 2 year old "new" BMW at a greatly discounted price. It didn't seem to hurt the dealer in the long run either. He was still there 4 years later when I bought the second BMW from him. This time at list. A good business person knows what to do when and plan for the future. Some dealers fall in that category, others don't and aren't around much longer. And in the long run, the BMW marque did not seem to have suffered a lasting blow as a result. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
court, pm sent... thanx Jake | ||
| Puredrive |
So has anyone gotten even close to this kinda deal? I'm posting my Firebolt for sale this week..And I would like to get a 1125 CR for this kind of price =) |
