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José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 06:49 am: | 
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For those who asked for it:
2003 AMA RoadRacing Rule Book
Anybody make a 600cc Vtwin? It's eligible for AMA supersport!
The words "twin cylinder" next to "exempt" show up a lot in the Superstock and Supersport section of the rulebook.
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Benm2
| | Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 08:19 am: |
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Wow! It looks like the pro-thunder bike could go directly into Superstock, as is! Didn't understand that before... Basically, its allowed in the class "unrestricted", AND its exempt from the claiming rules (hm, wonder why). Maybe the AMA isn't that bad, after all. The bike should have a shot against the 750 fours in that class; superstock bikes are normally more privateer than the supersport bikes.
Is anyone running last years PT bike in superstock at Daytona? |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 09:22 am: |
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Quote:The AMA 750 Supersport class was not heavily contested by the factory teams, and in reality it was mainly a Suzuki GSXR750 class. You might see the odd Kawasaki, but virtually the entire field was on Suzi's.
Thats because there the most competative, out of the box, but this is not to say and XB9R couldnt compete, i think its a matter of reading the rules, and producing a competative bike(similar to what has been done at a CCS level, people drop in 250/500 cr singles into RS 250 frame and win alot)
Quote:The factory teams achieve significantly higher performance than the privateers through highly selective screening of parts (some contend that they actually fabricate them specially), choosing only those at the very edge of the allowable tolerance band so as to achieve maximum compression ratio, optimum cam lift/grind, and other performance critical specs. The rules are written along the lines of mandating "stock" and "untampered" parts, instead of simply being based upon set values for CR and such. That approach guarantees the factories their desired advantage. The privateers have no way to match that OEM advantage."
I dont think they make specific parts for a race bike in this class, if they were caught, it could be a major problem for the race team due to the rule that states that if caught, the specific team is not allowed to race for 1 season(this happened last year in 750 SS) as far as the rest is concerned, you are correct, but isnt this to be expected at the pro levels, with the highest selling market in the MC industry out side of HD, i mean there is a lot of cash to be had if one of your 600 wins at Daytona, dont be fooled, win on sunday still sells bikes on monday.
I still belive there is a place for grass roots racing, but there has to be a place for pros to race also, time to look for a Buell backed 750 SS ride, and get some exposure, just because its not as fast now, does not exclude it from being fast in the future, Ducati is a good example, they didnt win in the begining, but look at them now, as i was once told, its the big picture that counts, not the imidiate future, some thing to consider
Roger |
Smadd
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 08:25 am: |
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Blake said
"The factory teams achieve significantly higher performance than the privateers through highly selective screening of parts (some contend that they actually fabricate them specially), choosing only..."
At Daytona, probably two or three years ago, the big hoopla (and no secret, it was widely discusssed there) was that Honda developed *one* rear shock for Miguel DuHamel at a cost of over $50,000. A shock that would deal better with the extreme conditions on the banking. A shock used for one race, that no privateer could ever hope to have. This created a tremendous advantage for the factory Honda rider. It's not just about the motor... other parts are equally as important.
Steve |
Smadd
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 08:28 am: |
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Oops, Blake didn't say that. Sorry, Roger.
Steve |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 09:49 am: |
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I remember that, i dont remember 50 grand but i dont doubt it, however shocks have never been mandated as a stock part that needs to remain on the bike, no private rider would ever get that shock, but i think at a pro level no matter what the sport, you will find things that the average Joe will never get, maybe thats why there needs to be a pro level, and a less than pro level, kinda like baseball, without the minors i doubt there would be anyplace a less than stellar player could go, i mean how many nonpro baseball levels are there now, all the a leauge's plus some others independant groups that are starting to take over(northern midwest comes to mind)
Roger |
Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 10:48 am: |
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I'm sorry if this has been discussed and I missed it, but has there been any word on the 2003 plans for riders such as Mike Ciccotto, Dave Estok etc.?
Are they planning to ride Buells in available classes, jumping to other brands or are their plans unknown? |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 05:18 pm: |
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Steve,
You were correct the first time; Roger forgot to add quotes.
Roger,
I agree wrt the Superstock series. My comments were wrt the 600SS series.
JQ,
Why don't the AMA SS rules allow for a 1000cc aircooled pushrod Twin or a 750cc desmo twin?
Did you notice a difference in the engine tech rules between the 1000cc IL4's and 1000cc twins for superbike? Gee, why do they have different rules for two different engine configurations? Why would they give one engine configuration such blatant "rules breaks" over another? Answer... To maintain parity within the class between two different engine configurations. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 05:25 pm: |
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Roger,
"I remember that, i dont remember 50 grand but i dont doubt it, however shocks have never been mandated as a stock part that needs to remain on the bike, no private rider would ever get that shock, but i think at a pro level no matter what the sport, you will find things that the average Joe will never get, maybe thats why there needs to be a pro level, and a less than pro level, kinda like baseball..."
Does that mean Barry Bonds should be able to use a specially "corked" bat not available to anyone else???
If you think it should be done that way why not drop the "Pro Racing" facade and call it what it is...Factory Racing?
Greg |
Davegess
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 06:04 pm: |
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All this talk about rules ot make racing fair..HA!
Was it Mark Donahue or Roger Penske who wrote the book "Unfair Advantage"
Racing is all about who has the most money, cubic dollars, sometine it is about who is the most clever but those folks all seem to have the money also.
Racing even at club level is never gonna be really fair. The dentist with big money for a new bike will beat the talented kid with the old bike regardless of the rules.
On a PRO level forget it. Winning is all that counts for these guy, way too much money involved for it to be any other way. Sportsmanship goes away when the reward is millions of dollars. They will spend what ever it takes to win. This may be trick shocks or lobbying the rules makers, whatever. I feel that big time racing is like a business, the big winners don't worry about fair or about the little guys. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 10:36 pm: |
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If that's the way it should be...bring back the Formula 1 bikes and let 'em loose! |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 08:22 am: |
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Does that mean Barry Bonds should be able to use a specially "corked" bat not available to anyone else???
Not being FAIR, due to cash, and being illegal are 2 different things, corked bats, pine tar to high on the bats(for hitters) sand paper, vasaline,(for pitchers) are illegal, shocks on an SS bike, actually any race bike, is not illegal in the rules book, your corked bat example would be akin to honda producing special frame for an ss 600 bike, very illegal,
How about this:
Is a custom made bat(still wood) made for a wealthy client illegal if it fits the rules, i only ask because at a pro level they have there bats made for them, at a college level, they buy from whom ever gives them the best price(now its mizuno) is that fair????Maybe, maybe not, but not illegal by any means
Again there will always be a need to have a pro sponsored level, and a way to get there(amature) otherwise you may never find the likes of Kirby Puckett, he started his career after high school at Triton CC college, then into the minors, if there was not a way for him to get his chance after high school would he have ever gotten as far as he did???(He was never considered smart in terms of a college level)
How do i know this, Triton is in the same conference as my school
Roger |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 06:33 pm: |
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All out factory pro moto racing is Moto GP. Read the intro to the AMA Pro Racing Rulebook though, and you get a different idea for what that series is SUPPOSED to be about...
Quote:"In this book, you'll find rules designed to create a level playing field for all com-
petitors, so that the best and brightest can continue to rise to the top, as they
have for more than three- quarters of a century.
Sincerely,
Merrill Vanderslice
Director of Competition
AMA Pro Racing"
.
.
.
"The Superbike class represents the top level of road race competition in America,
with exceptionally talented racers vying for victory on heavily modified production
motorcycles prepared by factory teams.
The Supersport and Superstock classes are for lightly modified production motor-
cycles, usually displacing 600cc and 750cc, respectively.
Formula Xtreme is for modified 1000cc production motorcycles and 250 Grand
Prix is for purpose built 250cc two- stroke racing motorcycles.
At least they acknowledge the "factory" aspect of Superbike. Funny how they neglect to include that same accurate description of the Supersport series. Still, it's displacement based racing. Yawn. How friggin' sad. They cannot even bring themselves to properly/accurately describe the new rules for Superstock. They throw in "usually displacing... 750cc" What a bunch of good for nothing lazy SOB's! I guess Suzi doesn't sponsor the class for nothing, seeing as how it has basically been a one model one brand class since its inception.
Someone care to explain to me how a "lightly modified" Jap 600 that in stock trim puts down 100 RWHP can on race day be cranking out in excess of 130 RWHP? Lightly modified my ass!
I'd love to see someone take advantage of the rules for Superstock Buell entries and put out a race contender for Daytona. Then watch the rules change for next year. I mean a 100" engine racing engine sandwiched into an XB9R ought to be able to be competitive with a 160 RWHP GSXR750. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 09:51 pm: |
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I don't know Blake...seemed like they sometimes had a tough time keeping 'em together when they displaced 82ci and made 130+HP |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 10:01 pm: |
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I dunno either. Then make it a 120" engine. ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Kaese
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 10:40 pm: |
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Hardly anyone had heard of Ducati before they began winning major races. Look at how their sales increased in years after a championship. Ducati can milk that championship for years to come.
It only makes good business sense to be in the mix. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 01:26 am: |
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Hmmmm... Aaron's LSR 100" engine held together fine until being pushed to go over 208 mph on nitrous. I think in naturally aspirated form it would do just fine. It was putting out some serious power and at revs it where it could easily live. Sure would be fun to try. (hint)  |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 06:26 am: |
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>>>>Hardly anyone had heard of Ducati before they began winning major races.
That's not exactly true. Ducati, formerly a manufactuer of electrical capacitors and shavers, was well known, albeit not in the worldwide market.
Ducati's success on the race track, although followed by sales increses, also preceeded the company going out of business several times and having to be rescued from imminent disasters ranging from family politics to the Italian tax man (who ran Zell off). Anyone here try to buy any Ducati parts in 1995?
Racing may CONTRIBUTE to marginal sales, but in rare cases would the marginal revenue offset the horrendous cost of successful racing.
Harley-Davidson, with the ill fated VR-1000 program, illustrated the critcism and ridecule a half-measure effort yields.
Buell has a luminsecent race heritage and did 10 years ago. Erik has long been known as skilled, strategic and a scrapper. Buell is currently not at a place, in the cycle of the company, where rolling the racing dice to the extent Ducati has, makes business sense.
Buell has, however, made tremendous committments to supporting (see the "news" on Buell.com today) racing and encouraging folks to race Buells.
Court |
Pammy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 08:07 am: |
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Blake, that bike would have lived well past 208 had certain circumstances not happened. Least of which being it's dis/re-assembly on the salt in totally unfavorable conditions. Aaron did an unbelievable job in those conditions! |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 09:26 am: |
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>>>>Hardly anyone had heard of Ducati before they began winning major races
How about we change this to hardly anybody in the USA, seems more fitting
That's not exactly true. Ducati, formerly a manufactuer of electrical capacitors and shavers, was well known, albeit not in the worldwide market
This of course was PRE WW2, if i am not mistaken, at least thats when they were KNOWN for those items, and i was not around for that part of the story, but i am sure Court will let me know more
Ducati's success on the race track, although followed by sales increses, also preceeded the company going out of business several times and having to be rescued from imminent disasters ranging from family politics to the Italian tax man (who ran Zell off). Anyone here try to buy any Ducati parts in 1995?
True, and dont forget to mention TPG also owns Libby veggi products, its for sale, or at least a portion of it, any takers????
Harley-Davidson, with the ill fated VR-1000 program, illustrated the critcism and ridecule a half-measure effort yields.
Now this i find interesting, why would one go racing in a group so disliked(at least thats what appears hear"read Blake" ) with a machine, that was given a very very good chance(read rules in favor of), or should i say opportunity, yet have nothing to sell for all the effort, unless of course you live in Poland, what was to gain, I am sure someone will say the vrod, however i do not recall the vr 1000 being designed by Porsche, however being wrong before i am sure it will be proven again
All in all i think most people recognize that Buell is not in a position currently to sponsor an all out effort on any measurable scale, but i wonder at times why, Aprilla seems to do fine, with several efforts world wide, and continue to do so(even with declining sales of scooters in Italy, there huge market) they even grew the team,
i am again wondering out loud so please bear with me, is there a reason the mothership is not interested in promoting Buell in a racing environment, i realize they are doing some items at the present, however in this economy, with the possibility of excess inventory after the 2003 model run, does anyone else think there needs to be more emphasis put on buell to keep HD at the top of there game??? Of course i never thought that HD thing would last this long so again i could be wrong, but how much longer can the HD phenom go on?????And does HD need to expand its market??? |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
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>>>but i am sure Court will let me know more
Nope. You would have had to attend one of the "History of Ducati" presentations that I did for Ducati in New York City. Hey, Donald Trump came....you should have too If you need more info, I have a rather extensive (thanks to my freinds at Motociclismo in Milan) library of Ducati and Aprilia history.
>>>>but how much longer can the HD phenom go on?????
I was told by a "reputable insider" that the HD days of "high flying" were going to crash soon. That was about the time my Dad bought the stock at $9 per share.
By the way, TPG is into lots of things including Burger King and J. Crew . . not unusal for any LBO strategy firm. Their involvement was not motivated by "saving" Ducati. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
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Quote:Why don't the AMA SS rules allow for a 1000cc aircooled pushrod Twin or a 750cc desmo twin?
1. The lap times I posted answered that, they are currently not competitive in either Supersport or Superstock.
The other reasons behind this, as I understand it, are the following:
2. There are already FOUR factory sponsored 600 teams, and possibly a fifth, Triumph, in 2004. When you add all the privateer 600 teams, the Supersport class gets plenty of entries. So there is no need, from their perspective, to mess with that class, and I'm sure the Four Factories fully agree with that.
3. There is this other class, Superstock, which is currently dominated by a single brand, which is also the same brand that sponsors the class. This brand is also one of the few companies even making a street legal 750cc IL4. None of the other brands are represented. So Superstock does not reflect what is currently available in the marketplace, unless you are Suzuki.
The AMA would like to get away from this situation, so they have opened up the rules to the Pro Thunder bikes, and exempt them from the usual homologation, claiming and technical requirements that the GSXR750 teams have to follow. They have also let the 600's in there, and Kawasaki will race this category this year with their new 636cc bike and their top riders.
So the potential is there for Superstock to go from only one brand to up to four (Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati and Buell if they decide to race there this year).
4. As mentioned earlier, there is much less factory involvement (equipment/riders) in Superstock as there is in Supersport, so "grass roots" Pro Thunder teams would have an easier time in Superstock than in Supersport.
From the AMA's perspective, these changes are an improvement for the Superstock class.
For the Speedvision TV presentation, they can get into brand competition instead of just constantly repeating "Jimmy Moore leads on on his Suzuki, followed closely by Brian Livengood on another Suzuki...."
Buell would get a lot of free PR on Speedvision and in the press just for trying to race in this class. They got some coverage last year at Daytona as Mike raced for 25th place. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
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If you need more info, I have a rather extensive (thanks to my freinds at Motociclismo in Milan) library of Ducati and Aprilia history.
Ducati Yes, Aprilla, not really. the company founder s still alive( the motorcyle founder, nit the bike founder his dad) plus most of the history is there for the asking, heck you can buy one of there older race bikes off there site
Their involvement was not motivated by "saving" Ducati.
True, but to make money they either has to sell off its assets, or build more bikes and save the company, their involvement was to make money, and whats the best way to make money???My guess is to buy the company, go public, keep a percentage, then sell it off once it has hit a specific price, you make it 2 ways(at least) then, now my guess is it has hit its target price and is now for sale, 37% i belive is the controling interest, hum who could be looking????
Can you imagine, ducati/moto guzzi/ Aprilla, seems like a nice company to me, but Aprilla would want total control, i doubt 37% is enuff to entice them, time will tell as will sales |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 04:30 pm: |
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JQ,
"1. The lap times I posted answered that, they are currently not competitive in either Supersport or Superstock."
So a bike that finishes within half a lap of the race winner is "not competitive" in your mind? A bike that finishes 22nd in a field of 79 is not competitive? Do you think that all the 56 privateers who fell in behind the Buell or those that were lapped by Mr. Cicotto on the Buell in the Daytona Superstock race might feel otherwise?
Using best lap time for a gauge, Mike Cicotto could have finished 18th out of a field of 52 Supersport entries at Daytona. Not competitive?
The AMA Pro Racing rules allow any displacement below 750cc in Superstock and in Supersport they allow any displacement at or below 600cc. That clearly shows that AMA Pro Racing is not at all concerned with keeping uncompetitive machines out of the series. Why not let the Ducatis and Buells into the series? WSB lets the Ducati 748/749's race and they are certainly not considered "uncompetitive." In fact didn't a Ducati 748 rider win the FIM SS championship not too long ago, within the last 10 years?
"The other reasons behind this, as I understand it, are the following:
2. There are already FOUR factory sponsored 600 teams, and possibly a fifth, Triumph, in 2004. When you add all the privateer 600 teams, the Supersport class gets plenty of entries. So there is no need, from their perspective, to mess with that class...
Uh, okay, so there are enough Jap IL4 entries to fill the grid, so let's not be fair and allow any other configurations of motorcycles into Supersport racing? Does that really seem right to you? 
"... and I'm sure the Four Factories fully agree with that."
I am 100% certain that is an accurate statement. Therein lies the problem JQ. Those who benefit most control the reigns at AMA Pro Racing. Is it "AMA" Pro Racing, or is it the "Jap Four Factories" Pro Racing? 
"3. There is this other class, Superstock, which is currently dominated by a single brand, which is also the same brand that sponsors the class. This brand is also one of the few companies even making a street legal 750cc IL4. None of the other brands are represented. So Superstock does not reflect what is currently available in the marketplace, unless you are Suzuki.
DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner! Why do you suppose AMA Pro Racing was willing to support a single brand series for Suzi, but not the Buell Lightning series? They finally had their hand called on it and begrudgingly allowed some other "safe" competition into the class. What a friggin' crock! The bikes they now allow into Superstock should be racing in Supersport or the Superstock class should be a HP limited class like FUSA Sportbike. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 06:10 pm: |
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Pammy,
I know it. So when is Cycle-Rama going to field an AMA Superstock contender. |
Pammy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 06:53 pm: |
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Man, we're dancin' as fast as we can. Organization is NOT our middle name. If we can get our current projects done, I will be able to breathe again!
My heads are nearing completion and I am excited about that. I think they will ready for public(not public forum) viewing by Saturday. A few folks(I believe) are coming to be dazzled and amazed by Wes' sheer brilliance this very weekend.
Cycle-Rama has made some huge advances since we designed the LSR motor. Kick-ass stuff(of course, that's the technical term for it). Exciting to put it mildly. You need to come visit again. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 09:11 pm: |
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Quote:Uh, okay, so there are enough Jap IL4 entries to fill the grid, so let's not be fair and allow any other configurations of motorcycles into Supersport racing? Does that really seem right to you?
Did you bother to read the Rulebook? Vtwins are allowed in Supersport as long as they displace 600 cc's. The defining feature for that class is a 600 cc displacement, no matter what the engine configuration is. To date, no manufacturer has decided to produce and race a 600cc Vtwin race bike, but the rules allow it.
You might not like the AMA's reasons, but they are as valid as FUSA's reasons to allow the bikes they do in their sportbike class. Again, you are free to attend the event of your choice.
As far as your little snide "Jap Four Factories" Pro Racing comment, you will find if you do enough research that the AMA has pissed off every single manufacturer at one time or another.
Yamaha did not like the new superbike rules, so what did they do, cry like a baby? No, they decided not to race in Superbike this year and concentrate on Supersport, Superstock and Formula Extreme.
Quote:Why do you suppose AMA Pro Racing was willing to support a single brand series for Suzi, but not the Buell Lightning series
There is a difference between a class which tells you what brand to race (a spec class like FUSA Buell Lighting} and a class that became a single brand class because one brand made a bike so much better than everybody else that the other brands stopped making that type of bike.
Again, read the AMA rulebook, nowhere in the Superstock rules does it say that you HAVE to use a Suzuki GSXR750. The bike is the best in its class, and on top of that Suzuki sponsors the class and offers a great contingency program, so it is a natural choice for a team or rider who wants to jump into the nationally televised, AMA PRO racing scene. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 09:19 pm: |
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Quote:So a bike that finishes within half a lap of the race winner is "not competitive" in your mind?
Quote:‘We won’t be able to run in that class. It’s a different level from where we are.’, Erik Buell, 11/1/02
I agree with Erik. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 01:44 am: |
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JQ,
"The defining feature for (AMA Supersport) is a 600 cc displacement, no matter what the engine configuration is."
Hello!!! You are 100% accurate in that statement. That's exactly what I've been harping about. The AMA is blind to anything but displacement as performance factors in a modern sport motorcycle engine. Other racing series astutely recognize that to maintain parity some engine architectures while sacrificing other performance enhancing characteristics require additional displacement. Why can't AMA Pro Racing?
You know damn friggin' well that I am NOT talking about a 600cc twin. I'm talking about a Buell aircooled, two valve, long stroking V-Twin, and a 750cc desmo V-Twin. FIM lets the Ducs race in SS, why not AMA??? They put them with the 750cc IL4's instead. Why is that?
"You might not like the AMA's reasons, but they are as valid as FUSA's reasons to allow the bikes they do in their sportbike class. Again, you are free to attend the event of your choice."
Nope, not even close. In fact that is complete bullshit. AMA Pro Racing has no good reason for not allowing other configurations into SS other than they are in the pocket of their Jap daddies. Wake up JQ. If you cannot see that, you are blind. FUSA has no such ultra narrowly defined class restrictions/exclusions. As opposed to AMA Pro Racing, FUSA is all about fair and open competition.
"As far as your little snide "Jap Four Factories" Pro Racing comment, you will find if you do enough research that the AMA has pissed off every single manufacturer at one time or another."
So what? Your point is? My point was not that AMA Pro Racing has pissed off anyone. My point is that they rule and preside over America's premier motorcycle road racing series with extreme favoritism. They are crooked, lazy, deceitful, and dishonorable. I hope that changes.
"Yamaha did not like the new superbike rules, so what did they do, cry like a baby? No, they decided not to race in Superbike this year and concentrate on Supersport, Superstock and Formula Extreme."
So what? Your point is? See, Yamaha makes bikes that according to AMA Pro Racing's narrowly conceived rules are indeed eligible to compete in SS and SBK. They are certainly capable of being competitive. Why not let the XB9R into SS? Why not let the underdog play? Why not let an AMERICAN sport bike compete in the AMERICAN Supersport racing series?... (in your best broken Japanese accent) Jap daddies no rikee American competition. Upstart Buell might take away more of precious sportbike market. Sirry squid racer wannabees might find varid attraction to American competitor bike; bike VERY different from Jap daddies product. Jap daddies no rikee, not happy, no give money to shady racing series for profit corporation if they allow Buell race in Supersport. Jap facotries very much rike big advantage we have in AMA Pro Racing series. Sirry privateers no stand chance.
"There is a difference between a class which tells you what brand to race (a spec class like FUSA Buell Lighting) and a class that became a single brand class because one brand made a bike so much better than everybody else that the other brands stopped making that type of bike."
In the beginning maybe there was a difference. For the last five years, the only difference was in the AMA Pro Racing's denial of the fact that 750 SS was a single brand series. The big difference is that one class (Buell Lightning) is honest about it's intentions, the other (752 SS) was not. Which is more laudable, which lacks integrity?
And, I disagree that the other Jap brands quit making 750cc bikes because Suzi beat them in the class. The other brands decided to build more street oriented 750cc bikes... the ZX7R and VFR750 come to mind. Suzi on the other hand chose to build a racebike and peddle it as a street bike. A strategy that worked well for them in the stock bike based racing arena.
"Again, read the AMA rulebook, nowhere in the Superstock rules does it say that you HAVE to use a Suzuki GSXR750. The bike is the best in its class, and on top of that Suzuki sponsors the class and offers a great contingency program, so it is a natural choice for a team or rider who wants to jump into the nationally televised, AMA PRO racing scene."
Get real. When only one bike that meets class criterion totally and completely dominates the series there is no difference if the rules call it out or not. Why didn't they let the Duc 998 into that class? Jap daddie no rikee! No give money to AMA Pro Racing.
I believe the Buell lightning class offered comparable sponsorship and contingencies. Why didn't AMA Pro Racing run it instead of the Suzi 750 class? Why not showcase an AMERICAN motorcycle racing series instead of a Japanese motorcycle series?
Or, back to the original impetus for this whole debate... why not let a properly managed Pro Thunder series continue?
They are run by double-talking weasels that's why JQ. What is your deal with not being able to see that? Don't you read the articles on RRW constantly slamming AMA Pro Racing for their lack of integrity and shady lazy self serving dealings? They are a freaking joke.
"I agree with Erik."
LOL! You got me on that one. And I agree, the Buell should have been allowed into the Supersport series. But given only Superstock to play underdog in, I hope to see them enter the fray and surprise a few people.
I'll most importantly be supporting FUSA Sportbike and Thunderbike.
Been thinking of starting a BadWeB Buell contingency fund. Just not sure for what class. I guess FUSA Sportbike. Not sure how much we could raise. Would need to be substantial though. $10,000 at least. Any thoughts?
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Japanese motorcycles or the Japanese. In fact I admire lots of things about both. It is the AMA Pro Racing management that I find lacking in admirable qualities. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 09:29 pm: |
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While you all are discussing AMA superbike, I'm interupting again. A friend that is, or now maybe was, going to race an XB this year, just found out a chain conversion is $2,500.00. I love racing a Buell, I love that Henry is at the tracks, I admire the contingency program, but com'on. To roll a basic racer onto the track, NOT a Thunderbike competitor, BASIC. Is going to cost, 9 to begin, 2,500 for a chain, 1,000+ for a body, at least 1,500 for brakes, 200 for a wheel, 1,000 for a race kit, 300 for tires, I dont know for fork lowers, IF, a local can get the parts and the bike, all for a good deal. That's $15,500, BEFORE, yes BEFORE, you get to the motor, or suspension. If Buell wants to get squiddie kids or Ducati riders looking, or spending, they'll have to offer a better/cheaper basic racing platform for local weekend guys. Especially as a "race use only" NON DOT, no liability, no warrenty, type of thing. We all know legal costs as much as the motorcycle.
When Joe Local shows his neighbor with a Kawasaki, his $5 trophy, he is automaticly a KNOWLAGEABLE motorcycle salesman. It would help if he weren't forced to ride a Jap bike.
I'm gonna keep rooting for a XBsomethingRR. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:37 pm: |
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One more thing, I just now read in cycle world about the new R6. At 357lbs, the new no longer twitchie design cliams 123hp. Tape the headlights and spank a $25,000.00 Thunderbike with a better rider, for $7999. In Formula USA Sportbike they will have to add weight and restrict power, off of the showroom floor! I forget, as much as I love em, why is it Joe Local would want to race a Buell? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 12:49 am: |
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Sportsman,
I think that the FUSA Sportbike HP limit is 115 corrected RWHP on an inertial dyno. I don't see 123BHP at the crank exceeding 115 at the rear wheel on an inertial dyno. With race ECM and pipe maybe. Darn impressive. I wonder what the low end and mid range are like?  |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:08 am: |
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I'm sure it's pipey. They said it has a larger intake lift on the cam that adds to the mid range, but no doubt it's twisting to get 123 and no bottomend.
I know my X1 is even more obsolite this year and I'd like to get a new bike. But GOD, how am I going to justify a XB even in my dulisonal mind. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 11:33 am: |
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Don't expect any $7900 bike to be winning in FUSA Sportbike, unless you really are delusional! A 2002 R6 Yamaha that is rated at 120HP actually measures 96HP at the rear wheel on the same dyno that my XB9R dynoed at 79HP. Hmmm, an actual 17HP vs. the advertised difference of 28HP. And that Yamaha is stretched much closer to the limit as delivered than is the XB9, so it is not cheap or easy to get that Yamaha to the 115RWHP needed in FUSA.
Oh, and I kick the butt of the guy with the R6 every time we ride in the twisties, big time. He is talking about buying a Ducati or an R1 to beat me, both of which cost more than my XB9...and I'm looking forward to wasting him on those as well!
And, HP isn't everything...a British bike magazine, I think it was Superbike, raved at how the XB9R was faster by over a second a lap than the CBR600F4 that they had tested a couple of months earlier, despite being down by 25 advertised horsepower. So to win at a regional club racing level, I don't think it is necessary to build a 115HP motor.
Don't bet on the chain conversion being $2500 for long, someone will come out and beat that in a big way. What a BS price, it pisses me off that some aftermarket manufacturers are that willing to rip off the customer. And a lot of the other parts you listed are either not needed or are equally required by competitive products. For the first...the brakes and wheels and fork lowers are not needed (or allowed) to be changed in FUSA. For the second, the tires are needed for all bikes, and the shock change is optional on all bikes. So it is not as bleak as it first appears.
I agree it would be cool if Buell built a dedicated race bike for sale, but it appears they can't afford to right now. In the meantime, the XB9R will do well racing this year...I hope you are on one, Sportsman! |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 12:48 pm: |
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>>>>it was Superbike
it was Superbike
I'm following the "long term Buell Test Bike" series and, as I begin to become a Buell fan, it's GREAT to read how the "I get no respect" Buell, in the hands of a magazine writer/rider, continues to kick butt, take names and rack up the lowest per/bike maintenance.
They are amazed, I feel vindicated and estatic.
This little Buell is just, in my personal opinion, beginning to show it's stuff. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 01:38 pm: |
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I'd like to see someone besides myself, hit the track with a belt. Why not just keep a collection of belt sprockets. I realize that the XB9R with its non-adjustable rear axle would require special belts too, but it seems a lot simpler than going to a new swingarm and chain setup. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 02:07 pm: |
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Don't be surprised if that happens, Blake. Americans are resourceful, and I'll bet some guys are working on it now. Belts are lighter weight, and use less horsepower than chains. Perhaps we'll see some belt drive systems that have adjustable idler pulley locations and different belt lengths to go with the different sprockets. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:44 am: |
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Greg, You are right, A few hp isn't going to make a huge difference at CCS. And thank you for the 2002 dyno results at 96. Not being around jap bikes, but hearing those numbers is unsetteling.
With the idler pully on a spring one would believe there has to be some way to work with that if somebody starts machining sprockets.
Alot of my frustration (OK think of how many guys bi*ch about getting stock Buell parts) Go in and ask the parts guy about clip-ons or rearsets. My 1st season I made rearsets and used dragbars. It isn't their element and they just don't know. The only way to get info is here or to bug the big dogs at a National. Hal's, Kosco, Hoban, Fredrick, are all very gracious and helpful, But they're F'n busy and rightfully so. Henry is very helpful, but he can't sell anything. If Buell can't sell a RR version, how about Skunkworks going online with a store.
Henry, If you read this I'm applying for a franchise or a part time job! |
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Honda Drops FUSA Supersport - Should Buell Step Up?
