| Author | Message | ||
     Lornce |
Thanks for the information Aaron... Helps to know what's in these things... '95 and '96 S2 use stock XLH1200 motors yet the claim is 76hp? Don't really know Harleys, but I thought 1200 Sportster output was closer to 50hp. How'd Buell come up with 76hp from their stock XLH1200 mill? Know where I can get a '95 S2... would need to factor T-Storm heads, Lightning cams and decent first over after market pistons/boring.... into the cost of aquisition.... Hmmmn, are they that much nicer to ride than S3's? Am interested in the opinions/experiences of others. best, Lornce | ||
| Kahuna |
hey lonrce ... i think harley of toronto has a 95 S2 still new (or at least barely used)! not sure what sort of figures they'd be asking for it, or if its even for sale. they have it tucked away on a high platform, so i never got a chance to take a closer look at it. k | ||
| Dave |
I'm fortunate to have at the moment an S1W, S2 and S3. There is no doubt to me that the S2 is the one that 'fits' the best. I do like the performance of the S1W and S3 better. The current market prices for an S2 makes them a real value that is hard to beat. Some low mileage S2s have been selling for ~$4000. DAve | ||
| Aaron |
They get that 76hp figure from a better air cleaner and exhaust system than a standard Sportster. On the dyno, a stock S2 tends to pull about 65hp. The 91hp Lightning and 91hp Thunderstorm motored bikes tend to pull about 75-77hp on the dyno. The 101hp Thunderstorm bikes tend to pull about 84-85. There's a lot of variation though. Older t-storm bikes tend to pull a little more. I recently pulled a '98 S1w with slip-on and air cleaner that made 93hp after a tune-up. Count me among those who prefer the S2. I chose to port the stock heads rather than put on Thunderstorms just because I wanted to keep the bike original looking. Just a stage 1 job, matched with some Lightning cams, makes 87hp with a slip-on. Thunderstorm heads have a bigger chamber to accomodate their bigger valves, and they use a domed piston to get back to 10:1, be sure to figure that into your costs if you go that route. The factory cast pistons are very reasonably priced, or you can spring for a premium forged piece. | ||
| Jmartz |
AAron: Are there any perceptible differences in performance (all other things the same) between the earlier bolted crankpin lower end and the 2000 and later pressed pin units? The 2000 and later weigh somewhat less don't they? and they might be stronger since the pin is thicker, humnn... but the rods are now bigger at the lower end to go around the larger pin... | ||
| Lornce |
Thanks for the thorough information Aaron. "The 91hp Lightning and 91hp Thunderstorm motored bikes tend to pull about 75-77hp on the dyno." This is interesting, I've only ever heard of the advertised 101hp 'Thunderstorm' motors. Which bikes had advertised 91hp 'Thunderstorm' motors? Can you recommend a quality forged piston suitable for use with T-Storm heads? I've experience building and running motors with Venolia pistons and have found them to work well. Also, it occurs to me with the high operating temps these motors generate, it'd be nice to use nikasil barrels. From whom do you recommend to source these? And why aren't they factory stock? Kahuna, When I needed to purchase replacement bag latches for my '98 S3T, Harley Davidson of Toronto was not able (willing?) to supply them despite repeated assurances they'd been ordered. It took two inconvenient trips to their shop to check on the progress of the order before it became clear I was wasting my time. Suffice to say I wouldn't be too keen to buy an S2, or anything else, from Harley Davidson of Toronto.... best, Lornce | ||
| Aaron |
Lornce: Domestic M2's from '99 though '02 came with a 91hp Thunderstorm engine. The lower hp rating is because of the "D" cams, the same cams that come in a standard Sportster. This 91hp Thunderstorm motor has the same hp rating as the Lightning motor, but it has a better torque curve. The heads are better, and the reduced overlap in the "D" cams mitigates the effects of reversion from the stock exhaust, filling in much of the torque curve hole Buells are so famous for. With respect to pistons and cyls, well, I'm not exactly an unbiased party, keep that in mind, but obviously I believe in the products we sell. People have different points of view though, I'd say look into it and go with who and what you're comfortable with. | ||
| Aaron |
Jose: yes, it's lighter, but only a little. FWIW, my experience has been that '00-'02 bikes don't seem to pull more than '98-'99 bikes of the same hp rating, if anything they seem to pull a little less. It is a stronger assembly though and that's why we retrofit them regularly. It's not overly expensive either, so if a guy is going in there anyway it's a nice, reasonable cost upgrade. It takes a little machining inside the case to get it to fit. | ||
| Rick_A |
I've heard nikasils aren't used 'cause steel dampens more sound. Aaron...similarly ported Lightning heads vs. ported Thunderstorms...big difference? | ||
| Aaron |
Well, Brian's the head porting dude, and I know enough to know there's a whole bunch of "ifs" to that answer ... but I can tell you that IMO, the bigger valves of the Thunderstorm heads is a good thing, and the bigger chamber to accomodate them is also a good thing because it unshrouds them more. Personally, I'd go with the Thunderstorms for that reason alone. | ||
| Lornce |
Aaron, Thanks for the info, had no idea about the M2 motors. Thanks also for the link to your products. Very interesting. Inspires a few more questions.... Are the cylinders included in the 1250cc kit Nikasil like the larger kits? Are you able to discuss who mfgr's your pistons and valves? How much taper on your various pistons? How about piston/cylinder running clearances of the various kits? Thanks for any info you may provide, your products certainly seem interesting. Best regards, Lornce | ||
| Aaron |
Hey Lornce: Yes, absolutely the 1250 kit cyls are Nikasil Millennium's. With respect to our suppliers, these are not standard off-the-shelf pieces that have been relabeled. In both of the cases you mentioned, pistons and valves, we've worked with the suppliers to get exactly the design we want. You can't call them up and buy the same piece that we sell. Call us up for more info. BTW, we've recently done the same with pushrods, and we now have our own line of Hurricane adjustable pushrods. Made to our specs with all the best features we're looking for. More new products are in the works and should be announced shortly. | ||
| Lornce |
"With respect to our suppliers, these are not standard off-the-shelf pieces that have been relabeled. In both of the cases you mentioned, pistons and valves, we've worked with the suppliers to get exactly the design we want. You can't call them up and buy the same piece that we sell. Call us up for more info." Aaron, I understand your concern, but that wasn't my intent. I would, however, be interested to know piston taper figures, what piston/cylinder clearances your kits are designed to run at and who mfgr's your pistons. This is useful and necessary information needed to make an intelligent buying decision. I wouldn't buy anyone's big bore kit before knowing these things. Would you? regards, Lornce | ||
| Aaron |
Lornce: Sorry, didn't mean to imply we won't answer those questions. I just think it would be a lot better to do it by phone, this could turn into quite the dialogue. Please call, we'd love to talk to you! | ||
| Lornce |
Aaron, Thought it might be useful to discuss things like piston mfgr, taper and cyl/piston clearances right here where it could be useful to others too. Thanks for your time and the information you were willing to share. regards, Lornce | ||
| Ara |
Aaron: Off the subject a touch, but something I've always wondered about. That intake manifold you sell - is it compatible with the factor carb in a '97 Buell S3? If so, what likely benefits can be had from it in that application? Russ | ||
| Blake |
Lornce, If you look through the Dyno charts archives you can find plots of my stock '00 M2 that pulled 83 RWHP and my stockish (2-1/2" S1W header with Borla can and race intake) '97 M2 that pulled 74 RWHP. That same '97 M2 after Nallinization pulled 100 RWHP, a 35% increase. What is really cool is that it also maintained the BIG low end characteristics of the stock "D" grind cams and still uses the stock CV40 carburetor. It comes on with 80 FT*LBs of torque at just 3,000 rpm and by 3,700 rpm is near tickling 90 FT*LBs. My preference is that if I am going to use a bike for distance riding/touring, it really should be cammed for good solid low end grunt. Good luck with whatever you decide. | ||
| Lornce |
Blake, Thanks for the additional input. Are you freer to discuss the hardware involved? "Nallinization" Sounds cool... what's it actually mean? Do you know anything about the internals of your modded motor? Who mfg'd the pistons? What sort of piston/cylinder running clearances? Piston taper? Do you have this sort of motor work done without knowing these things? Is that common in America? tia, Lornce | ||
| Blake |
Lornce, "Are you freer to discuss the hardware involved? "Nallinization" Sounds cool... what's it actually mean?" Brian and crew (with whome Aaron is now partnered) installed their 1250 big bore kit (Millenium cylinders, Nallin Racing 10.5:1 Hurricane pistons) in my '97 Cyclone along with a set of their Stage II Thunderstorm heads and a set of CM580 cams. Check out the Engine Kits on their website. Choose the cams of your liking. "Do you know anything about the internals of your modded motor? Who mfg'd the pistons? What sort of piston/cylinder running clearances? Piston taper?" Off the top of my head, no. I do recall Brian telling me that the piston manufacturer is one who also manufactures pistons that run in NASCAR Winston Cup cars. Top shelf forged pistons to be sure. They are truly works of art. Clearance, if I recall is a bit tighter than stock but not much. I don't know anything about piston taper. "Do you have this sort of motor work done without knowing these things? Is that common in America?" Depends on the person having the work done or buying the parts. If I knew anything about the intricacies of such things I probably would have asked out of curiosity as much as anything. The main thing is that I know and fully trust the folks at Nallin Racing just as I would the crew at Cycle-Rama. Either of those shops can do whatever they like to my engine, and I'll have full confidence in the parts, performance, and durability. I truthfully am not well versed in the intricacies of such things and so left it to the experts. If you want to know this stuff and really learn the intricacies of the parts and how they are designed to work best together, I really suggest you give them a call. That goes for any reputable performance engine/parts shop. | ||
| Rippin |
Aaron or Blake, Have you heard of anyone with that bought the kits from Millenium with the Wiseco pistons that they(Millenium) supplies? I bought kits from them and their pistons are not from what I seen the one's that Nallin uses. I have not installed the kit on my '01 M2 yet because I'm not sure of this combo. I have N-6 cams w/ proheader and old style IDS with race ignition and hsr42. If you know of anyone or have dyno figures would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ryan | ||
| Aaron |
Russ: that intake manifold described on our web site is the Buell/SE CV44 piece. It comes with a couple different sealing rings to accomodate either a CV40/HSR42 or a CV44/HSR45. I haven't had any luck finding more power with it on an HSR42 equipped bike, over the stock manifold that is. Ryan: Millennium sells kits with either Hurricane or Wiseco pistons. I would say look at the features of each and decide for yourself. Lots of successful engines have been put together with each brand, though. | ||
| Blake |
One of the best reasons to buy your performance engine parts from Nallin Racing or Cycle-Rama... free expert advice. | ||
| Court |
For what it's worth.... Over YEARS of buying and having Buells hyper-rodded, there are damn few people I trust when it comes when my ASS and my $$$$ go on the line simultaneously. The factory bikes I was test riding and the folks in Topeka always kept me spoiled. I have a habit, as the speedo sweeps past 100MPH of asking myself "do I THINK or KNOW the torque on the axle pinch bolts is right?". Used to be, in the world of aftermarket, that you had to be pretty savvy just to buy "smart". As Buell owners, we've seen some neat changes and folks like Tat, Wes and Pammy and Aaron and Coonass have moved "Hot Rod" out of the domain of "spend money: it'll be louder and may or may not run right". Aaron is a SCIENTIST at this. If there's no return to be had, he wouldn't take a dollar from you. Ditto, Wes and Pammy. I'd not met Wes until East Troy. The guy is mucho smart and a true gentlemen. We're luckier than we likely know or appreciate. I used to have an UNUSALLY fast Buell, I suspect there'll be much more in evidence in the coming summer. The current range of Badweb sponsors are smart, honest and take ownership of what they are selling. That's a "good thing". Court | ||
| Ara |
Aaron: Thank you, sir. Russ | ||
| Jsunstar |
hey guys, i have a set of cams from a 98 m2, its supposed to be from a stock race motor (case said for race application on it, ive never heard of it) i want to put them into my 94 1200 sportster when i do the top end (got the t-storm top end with the cams, pistons, heads, jugs, pushrods and rockers/boxes, ETC.) what i need to know is if the cams are the same as my stock ones... i dont want to change if i dont have to... any help is appreciated, thanks jaSON | ||
| Aaron |
What does it say on the lobes? 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D? | ||
| Jsunstar |
it says 15 1,15 2, 15 3, 15 4 thats all, nothing else on the cam except for a green dot. crim said you would know... | ||
| Aaron |
Those are Lightning cams ... btw you have mail, call me if I can be of help. | ||
| Bigun283 |
I just bought a set of SE .536" cams. Just want to know if I need worry about internal clearances with these cams. This will help me decide if I will do this myself or have someone do it. Thanks Brian | ||
| Blake |
Brian, My first question is... Do you have a service manual? |
