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Tnxbrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 11:29 pm: | 
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The last time Russell rode an american bike he got his jaw broke because he was running his mouth the night before the Daytona 200. can anyone remember the year? |
Elfrippo
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 04:55 am: |
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A better power-to-weight ratio means quicker acceleration, not just higher top speed. Look at the XB12 compared to an IL4 600. The XB12 has a huge torque advantage but still loses out in acceleration against a 600 in every interval. So it seems to me the 1125R has an advantage in power.
It seems to me Buell needs to work on the aerodynamics of the bike though. With the obvious power advantage the bike should have a higher top speed than the 600s, but it seems as if it tapers off when the speeds get up there.
I think the race showed a real problem: The 600 riders were forced to push their bikes harder in the corners in an attempt to gap Eslick. They knew he would come steaming right past them on the straight. Having this kind of power over the competition is a huge advantage in a race, more so than the lap times show. It means he has to work less and take less risks. |
Bott
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:18 am: |
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Tnxbrider: yup, was in '99. Got hisself 'shut up' LoL
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Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:29 am: |
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Elfrippo,
What you saw is partially accurate, the part about some competitors being better in corner entry on the brakes.
But Danny was better on corner exit and pulled away from every corner exit with better speed, which translates to better top speed down the straights. Ask any racer, a good corner exit before a long straight is vital. Passing on the brakes is good, but only if you can maintain good corner speed. The last pass for the win exemplifies the situation. Danny's 1125R remained firmly planted as he drove around young Mr. Herrin at full lean. Herrin almost crashed his bike trying to match Danny's blistering pace at full lean.
Danny is outperforming not due to HP, though he enjoys good performance there too. His advantage is superior stability at full lean and superior corner exit speed. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:35 am: |
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"With the obvious power advantage"
That is inaccurate. If you disaagree, then please explain why the factory 600's are walking past the privateer 600's. The factory supported 600s are likely putting down well over 130 RWHP. It takes raw HP to make 180 MPH at Daytona, period. |
Elfrippo
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 09:04 am: |
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Either way I don't think this is good for Buells business. I have seen alot of crap on almost every forum I visit regarding this issue. There's alot of Buell hate out there right now, and that can't be good. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 09:40 am: |
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As long as they spell the name right, at least they are talking about it, two years ago Buell was not even part of the discussion. |
Geforce
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 11:55 am: |
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You can argue and argue and argue about the Buell's being overpowered until you are blue in the face. But until we have all of them in the top 5 or top 10 then there's no logic to the argument. People are complaining about one rider's skill and sheer discipline to control that bike to it's performance envelope and succeed. Danny has the right bike, he's riding the tires off of it. Why is it when ONE Buell out of several makes a podium finish that everyone begins to cry foul?
Lay everything out in your head and look at it from a logical standpoint. Would we cry foul if during the olympics a runner happened to being wearing a different type of shoe than the norm? If so, would we say that the shoe gave him an unfair advantage? Even though there are several other runners who wore the exact same shoe and didn't have the same results?
Just something to think about. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 01:10 pm: |
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But until we have all of them in the top 5 or top 10 then there's no logic to the argument.
There were 3 Buells in the Top 10 last race. We are getting closer!  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 07:00 pm: |
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This discussion is missing one important discussion, power at particular RPM's.
I suspect the factory inline fours make every bit as much (and probably more) peak HP then the showroom stock 1125R motors do. But peak HP only comes at peak RPM. And I would bet that the 1125 makes more power at the bottom 70% of it's RPM range then the inline fours make.
Thats why it "jumps off the corner".
For peak power, I watched that race, and whichever bike played the draft right passed on the straights. The 1125 did it to the R6, and the R6 did it to the 1125.
If you want to complain about power advantages, you should complain about the "tier 1 bikes" (which include the 1125R, the Aprilla, and the factory inline four 600's) versus the "tier two bikes", which are the non factory supported inline fours.
But Buell is making that more fair, not less fair, as just about anyone can now get a "tier 1" bike for an affordable price and race with the big dogs... if they have the talent to live up to the machine.
How anyone thinks this reflects badly on Buell is beyond me... its a big "FU" to the established japanese elistist and controlling pecking order. Thats as 'merican as it gets  |
M2nc
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 07:17 pm: |
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So it seems to me the 1125R has an advantage in power.
Yes, that is true. The 1125R has an extremely flat torque curve, even flatter than other liter plus V-twins like the 1098. The Helicon motor was set up for mid-range not peak power and that does give the Buell an advantage. Your comparison between the 600 and the XB12 is off because you are assuming that the 600 can get its engine speeds up to its power range. I can tell you from riding with buddies on small cc sport bikes, that I can jump them off the line and even hold them off as far as an 1/8 mile unless they have a perfect launch. I also will beat them out of a corner every time. A 600 sport bike is peaky. It is the Zing to Buells Zang. That crazy horsepower at ballistic engine speeds comes on all of a sudden. It is much harder to manage a clean corner exit because if you have too much throttle and RPMS, you spin the rear tire, too little and you do not have enough ponies to keep up. So yes the Buell has an advantage coming out of corners because it makes not only more power at lower engine speeds, but it also is easier to modulate out.
Now if AMA would say they are going to set a horsepower to weight limit and check it with a dyno at the end of each race, you will be doing the Buell a favor, not slow it down. The top 600s have a better power to weight than the Buell. So if you make them equal, the Buell would still have the same advantages listed above and now you have taken away one of the 600s advantages. You would effectively slow the 600s down, not the Buells.
To look if the competition is fair, you have to look at the whole picture, not just one snap shot. Look at the facts of the last Road Atlanta race. Eslicks best lap was not in the top five. As a matter of fact, no Buell has set on the pole of any race that was determined by qualifying. At Road Atlanta there were 1/2 dozen faster bikes out there on the track. So how could Eslick win the race? Well races are not tech sheet debates, things not planned for happen. Example, the two top 600s that were running away from the field early in the race, crashed. Is that an advantage of the 1125R? Also most of the top 600 teams used a softer compound tire than the Buells and Aprilias. They were faster at the beginning of the race, but then fell off by lap 12. The KWS Aprilias were matching the Buells lap times and Chad Davies pulled a beautiful move to pass Eslick. But later in the race he started to have mechanical problems with his clutch that caused him to hit a false neutral coming out of a corner. This caused him to over shoot the exit and let Eslick and Knapp pass him. Josh broke the rear tire loose coming out of the last corner when Elsick didn't. Eslick did not out power Herrin, he kept his cool out of the last corner and came out cleaner. Non of these point to some unfair advantage for the 1125R?
As for how it is helping or hurting Buell as a business, local dealers here are reporting increase traffic for the Buells because of all the press about the Buells winning. Remember that most riders do not follow racing so win on Sunday, sell on Monday will still hold true.
Once you talk each speculation of unfairness through and look at the true facts, it is clear that the Buell is a great bike that is winning because of one great rider who knows how to be consistent even though he is not the fastest. You win races by having the best average lap times, not just one quick lap. I think the DSBK formula is great because it does take different types of bikes, with advantages and disadvantages in different places on the track, but all combined are lapping the track at about the same speed. It has so far been the best racing I have seen this year to date. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 07:53 pm: |
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great post M2nc |
Mcgiver
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 09:36 pm: |
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And I don't think anyone told the Japanese manufactures that they have to build 600cc fours, and not 1000cc twins! They do that because they created that class of bikes, and think everyone should do it like them.I call BULLSHIRT! Brian |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 11:50 pm: |
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All this talk about the power characteristics between the 600s & the 1125 is but one factor in the Buell's race performance.
Races can be won or lost by the ability to outbrake your opponent. Danny, in his post-race interview, mentioned brake fade as being a problem while dicing with the leaders.
I wonder if his particular instance of brake fade was a one-time thing or, if not, hopefully it's not an indication of a ZTL design limit. |
Bud
| | Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 07:15 am: |
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i agree with sparky.
bikes don't win races
it's the rider who can bring out the best off the bike wins
where running against 1000 cc 4IL,
but even than pulling out off the corner the buell win's hands down,
only on the high speed sections we loose a little against the 180 hp 4IL |
Elfrippo
| | Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 10:37 am: |
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Your comparison between the 600 and the XB12 is off because you are assuming that the 600 can get its engine speeds up to its power range. I can tell you from riding with buddies on small cc sport bikes, that I can jump them off the line and even hold them off as far as an 1/8 mile unless they have a perfect launch. I also will beat them out of a corner every time. A 600 sport bike is peaky. It is the Zing to Buells Zang. That crazy horsepower at ballistic engine speeds comes on all of a sudden. It is much harder to manage a clean corner exit because if you have too much throttle and RPMS, you spin the rear tire, too little and you do not have enough ponies to keep up. So yes the Buell has an advantage coming out of corners because it makes not only more power at lower engine speeds, but it also is easier to modulate out.
If you look at the dyno graphs below you can see some interesting things:
http://image.sportrider.com/f/8831540/146_0312_z+b uell_xb12r_firebolt_dyno+.gif
http://image.sportrider.com/f/9093480/0704_sprp_07 _z+dyno_chart+.jpg
The Buell XB12 makes peak power at 6750rpm. At 60% of those revs (~4000rpm) it has roughly 56% of peak power still available, that is approximately 55hp.
Now look at the 2007 CBR600RR. It makes peak power at 13600rpm. At 60% of those revs (~8200rpm) it has roughly 58% of peak power still available, that is approximately 62hp.
As you can see the hp does not come all of a sudden on the CBR and the Buell actually suffers just as much when the rpms drop.
You have to keep the Buell at 5300rpm to have 80hp available on corner exit, while the CBR has the same hp available at 9700rpm. Keeping the CBR at that rpm should be no problem for a skilled rider. 5300rpm on the Buell is alot closer to redline than 9700rpm on the CBR. |
Elfrippo
| | Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 10:50 am: |
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I do have to agree on one point though, the 1125R has a wider power band than the 600s. Is that a fair advantage? I personally don't think so. That wide power band comes from a relatively mild tune of the engine. With the displacement advantage they have they can afford to have a wide spread of power and still have competitive top end power. This wouldn't be possible on a 600 in this case. Sure they could tune them for a wider powerband, but how on earth are they going to do that without sacrificing top end power? |
Dipstick
| | Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 02:19 pm: |
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The sport bike class is a HP class, not a displacement class. You can make that HP with any engine design and displacement you want. The 1125R with Eslick at the controls proves that available power over a wide RPM range coupled with a flat torque curve is the real secret to winning races.
Additionally, the fuel in the frame allows the 1125 to run faster in the infield when it's full. The 600's could not match it's speed there until they burned off enough fuel to get that weight off the top of the bikes.
The Buell 1125R is not a "cheater" bike, it's just a better designed one.......with one hell of a rider on it. |
M2nc
| | Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 07:46 pm: |
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Fredrick - The beauty of the class is that different bikes have advantages in different places. If you look at the top twelve or fifteen bikes they all have close lap times. This proves my point above that different bikes have different advantages, but as a whole they are a good match. I remind you that the 600s and 600s alone have topped every super pole. Their power and light weight gives them advantages that match and exceed the Buell, Triumph and Aprilias. But races are not dyno charts. You could put me on Mladin's Gixxer and I would still struggle against that crowd to stay on the lead lap. People do have to ride the bike and those same bikes break. Eslick did not win Daytona because his bike had problems. To whine that one bike has some unfair disadvantage when that same bike put down the best lap times makes little sense. |
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