| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Saro, Yes the XB/Blast run the same lowish pressure like the other quad cam HD/Buell engines. The pressure is dictated by the type of bearings supporting the highly loaded drivetrain components. Automobile engines require a higher pressure oil feed to maintain adequate flow while forcing oil through the restrictive tight annular spaces between all their bushing type journal bearings. The automotive bearings do not use rollers; such "plain" bearings are basically closely toleranced bushings. Such bushing-bearings absolutely depend on a constant pressurized flow of oil to maintain hydrodynamic film. The film supports the highly loaded spinning shaft. It is MUCH easier to pump oil through a roller bearing compared to a bushing-bearing. The number of pleats being too many (being to conjested) or too few (inadequate area to support required oil flow) can increase pumping pressure, but it would need to be an extreme difference. Too few pleats (little surface area) would clog with debris more quickly which would also tend to increase required pumping pressure. Remember that our pumps are "positive displacement", meaning that for every revolution of the pump's input shaft a set amount of oil will be forced out of the pump, no matter the pressure required. Oil is incompressible, so when any restriction or hindrance to flow is encountered the pressure quickly rises and the flow rate is maintained. If the filter media were too restrictive, the input pressure would simply rise enough to overcome that restriction and/or activate the bypass valve. | ||
| Rick_A |
Blake, I meant "outside" as the oil flows through the filter then through the perforated shroud. So in that respect it is on the outside of the filter area. Yes, physically, it is usually on the inside of the filter. They have pretty big holes! It's not there to stop "chunks"! Gimmee a break here, man  That's pretty ludicrous. If your filter is already clogged or clogging, it no longer matters if the filter element starts to collapse against the shroud. It'd take a lot to tear a filter because it is very well supported. Synthetic oil is bad for some engines. It's a bad choice for a worn or new engine, and is incompatible with unit construction (clutch and engine sharing oil) engines. So in some ways, yes it is bad. It's likely this information gets garbled after many iterations and people begin to believe that it's not good. I'm sure everyone has known someone who's put synthetic in a new or rebuilt motor and fried it, or put it in an old engine and it'd suddenly consume large amounts of oil...and/or knock...and/or leak like a sieve...and/or whatever else. If a higher pressure than specified (I.E. a flow restriction} is run through the narrow bypass valve area of a filter...what occurs is the equivalent of that of high blood pressure. Oil speed increases...pressure drops. It doesn't do humans good, nor would it an engine. It makes sense to me that a higher running pressure engine may use a higher rated valve. If someone can conclusively tell it isn't true, I'll admit to being wrong on that. Hey, if someone finds a filter that they can prove is the same composition and construction as a Harley long filter let me know. I'd definitely use it. | ||
| Jprovo |
Blake, thanks for moving the data over here. Saro,I think that the extra ammount of filter material shouldn't make a huge difference. True, there is 20% more filter area in the Wal mart filter so it should theoretically flow more oil, but the pleats are more closely placed which might hinder flow. It wouldn't suprise me much if the surface area of the filter material vaired that much from filter to filter. It probaably depends on who set up the machine that's cutting the filter media and whether or not it is a friday or a monday. Look at the second picture, both the Buell and the SuperTech filter have pleats that are really unevenly spaced. Rick, way to propagate the Synthetic oil myth. Does anybody know what causes gear oil to have it's unique odor? Does Sporttrans have the same odor? James | ||
| Rick_A |
Rick, way to propagate the Synthetic oil myth. That information is not a myth of any sort. | ||
| Rick_A |
Be my guest...put full synthetic in a high mileage classic car...or in a brand new motorcycle...or use a standard synthetic in a wet clutch unit construction engine. Tell me how it goes. I'd love to hear about it | ||
| José_Quiñones |
It's not the synthetic oil that's the problem for wet clutch bikes, it's the additives in the oil. Mobil or Amsoil would be out of business if their motorcycle specific synthetic oils damaged every clutch they came in contact with. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Looking at the AMSOIL data page for their 10w40 motorcycle oil, I came across the following:
The plot thickens.... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I put full synthetic (mobil 1 15-50) in my previous bike (a 600cc UJM). It had almost 20,000 miles on it, and of course shared oil with both the engine and the clutch. Worked perfectly. My clutch did not slip, my engine did not leak, I did not burn oil, my hair did not fall out, and my ice cream did not go all melty. I've spent a lot of time listening, and yet to hear any *credible* first hand bad experiences with full synthetic. It's always a friend of a freind... Even for the most credible argument, that the full synthetic will make a clutch slip, I have yet to actually hear from somebody who actually experienced it. | ||
| Lornce |
"Does anybody know what causes gear oil to have it's unique odor? Does Sporttrans have the same odor? James" James, While no petro-chemical engineer, I understand it's the addition of sulphur to gear oils that lend it the peculiar odor. BTW Rick, I've been using Mobil 1 synth in my GSX-R 7/11 with no ill effects to the wet clutch. regards, Lornce | ||
| Sarodude |
Also, the 'Classic Car' thing that's been run on old school oils has nothing to do with synth vs dino - it's detergent vs non-detergent. When years / miles of non-detergent motor oil has run in a car and there's some kind of build up, a detergent oil can loosen this accumulation (sludge?) and problems can begin. The other reason to not use synth in an older motor - if it burns oil, it ain't worth using the longer lasting oil if the oil doesn't stay in the engine. -Saro | ||
| Blake |
Rick, "Blake, I meant "outside" as the oil flows through the filter then through the perforated shroud. So in that respect it is on the outside of the filter area." Okay, but isn't that confusing? No matter, the screen (acutally more of a perforated sheet) of which you speak is on the "outlet side." That's better eh? Some filters include a screen on the inlet side. I agree, the filter is not likely to see debris that large. "Synthetic oil is bad for some engines." Why would that be? I know the older engines up to the '60's and 70's might have included some seal or gasket materials that were incompatible with synthetic oil. I don't know of any other reason why synthetic oil would pose any problem in an engine. Don't fall victim to the myths Rick. It is just oil without the inferior strains of molecules found in conventional oil. "It's a bad choice for a worn or new engine, and is incompatible with unit construction (clutch and engine sharing oil) engines. " That's funny, all the new Corvettes and Porsches ship new with Mobil-1 as do many super expensive engines that run heavy equipment. Formula One cars use it, NASCAR racers uses it. Synthetic oil is oil, just better, more durable, more stable, less reactive to combustion byproducts thus less acid forming, easier flowing at low temperatures, stronger in shear, less volatile at high temperature, more resistant to thermal breakdown. Don't by into the myths. "So in some ways, yes it is bad. It's likely this information gets garbled after many iterations and people begin to believe that it's not good. I'm sure everyone has known someone who's put synthetic in a new or rebuilt motor and fried it, or put it in an old engine and it'd suddenly consume large amounts of oil...and/or knock...and/or leak like a sieve...and/or whatever else." I challenge you to name one way in which synthetic oil is bad in today's engines. Most all the information I've seen and scrutinized that lauds conventional oil over synthetic ends up being exposed as pure bullshit based on wholly anecdotal stories or mythological heresay. I've not heard of anyone who has switched to synthetic lubricant that has had any trouble like you describe. Engines have problems for any number of reasons no matter what oil they utilize. It is to be expected that with millions of consumers out there in the world sometimes after switching from conventional to synthetic in a few rare anecdotal cases an engine might suffer problems. Is that a reliable indictment against synthetic oil? No it is not. If you get a zit after first using synthetic oil, is that the oil's fault too? Most of the stuff you describe is what I understood to happen long ago when changing from nondetergent to detergent engine oil. The new fangled detergent oil would remove years of crud built up in parafin based motor oil, and the engine would start to leak and knock. My dad has stories like that. Other than the leaking gaskets in vintage automobiles to which I already alluded, I've never heard of switching to synthetic oil causing any such issues. Don't buy into the myth. "If a higher pressure than specified (I.E. a flow restriction is run through the narrow bypass valve area of a filter...what occurs is the equivalent of that of high blood pressure. Oil speed increases...pressure drops. It doesn't do humans good, nor would it an engine.} I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Actually the mechanics of incompressible fluid flow is opposite to what you describe. An increase in velocity causes an increase in pressure while a decrease in velocity causes a drop in pressure. Higher pressure puts more load on the pump, which is why it is hard on the human heart, our body's main pump. I'm not sure the oil pump in a motorcycle is going to care quite so much. The human body experiences abnormally high blood pressure due to occlusion of arteries. The only equivalent to that in a motorcycle is the contamination/clogging of the oil filter. Luckily, being a solitary simple component we can incorporate an automatic bypass into an oil filter to protect against clogging. Unfortunately, our circulatory system lacks such a convenient means for achieving bypass. Instead, we have to pay a surgeon to peal us open and install the bypass manually after clogging has become critical. "It makes sense to me that a higher running pressure engine may use a higher rated valve. If someone can conclusively tell it isn't true, I'll admit to being wrong on that." Actually, all the literature I've seen shows that automotive and motorcycle bypass valves work between 12 and 25 psi. Oil filter media collapses anywhere from 90 to 125 pis. The filter can bursts at from 185 to 225 psi. The pump is capable of producing over 500 psi. The positive displacement gearotor pump is the same basic design as is used in high pressure (upwards of 2,000 psi) hydraulic systems. For the reason I described previously, the inability of a paper filter to withstand significant pressure loading, bypass valves in both automobile and motorcycle oil filters actuate at the roughly same levels of differential pressure. Cold oil poses a threat to a clean oil filter. Without a bypass valve and with the engine running at high speed, the filter media would risk collapse rendering it inefective. That scenario is the same for an automotive filter or a motorcycle filter. They both use the same filter media and configurations, so the differential pressure that actuates the bypass valve must also be similar. The automotive filter shown above has an identical bypass valve to the Buell filter. Like I said, I pay the crazy price for a genuine HD/Buell filter. They are all black.  | ||
| Xb9er |
Rick_A said: I have to agree with Jprovo that Rick_A is propagating the synthetic oil myth(s). Myth: Synthetic oil is "incompatible" with motorcycle engines with a common sump (the engine oil lubricates the engine, transmission and wet clutch). Not true. While this may be true for most synthetic car oils when used in motorcycles, it certainly is not true for all synthetic oils. Most synthetic Automobile oils contain friction modifiers which make them unsuitable for motorcycles. One exception is Mobil 1 15W-50 "Red Cap" car oil. It does not contain friction modifiers found in other synthetic car oils and is popular among sportbike riders. Obviously, as already stated, synthetic Motorcycle Oils are not incompatible with motorcycle engines. Myth: Synthetic oils are bad for a new engine. Not true. As Blake said, some new, high-performance cars come off the assembly line with Mobil 1. I used H-D oil in my Firebolt during break-in simply because it had published and tested break-in procedures specific to dino oils. If published and tested break-in procedures for synthetics existed, I would have started out with synthetic oil. Myth: Synthetic oils are bad for an old engine because they cause oil leaks. Not true. The synthetic oil itself does not create a leak. The detergents in the synthetic oil can sometimes clean out the gunk deposited around worn seals and then the engine will leak oil. I have never known or heard of anyone who "put synthetic in a new or rebuilt motor and fried it." James: Sport Trans fluid does smell like gear oil, but not as strong. I compared the odor of Sport Trans (a semi-synthetic) to Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil (75W-90). | ||
| Tavs |
My dad has an 89 Chevy p/u w/300,000 miles. He started putting in Mobil 1 only after 120,000 miles. So far we've only had to replace the water pump. Seems to work on his high mileage engine. | ||
| Ara |
My experience is identical to Reepicheep's. I had a Honda Transalp, which is a 600cc v-twin liquid cooled rally bike that of course uses engine oil to provide lubrication to the transmission and clutch. Sorry, Rick, but my clutch never slipped and I had no lubrication related problems whatsoever. (I did have a water pump failure due to using Prestone antifreeze. Prestone has "silicates" in it to scour corrosion off the inside of a 4-wheel vehicle's cooling ssystem. Bad news for a motorcycle water pump.) Russ | ||
| Xb9er |
H-D Keeps Sport-Trans Specs a Secret! Today I received a letter from Harley-Davidson Motor Company in response to a letter I sent to Buell Customer Service requesting an MSDS, spec sheet, and any literature on Sport-Trans. Surprisingly, I received the MSDS. Not surprisingly, Page 1 of 7 of the MSDS was missing and I did not receive any other information! I found it interesting that the Preparation/Revision date on the MSDS is 02-21-92. The letter basically said H-D oils and Sport-Trans fluid are the only oils they can recommend for my Firebolt (something about how extensively they have been tested). The letter then ended with: I originally posted this chart on November 27, 2002 with a correction posted on December 01, 2002. I've updated it with the Sport-Trans viscosity. ---------------------------------------Viscosity(cSt) -----Oil---------------------------40°C(104°F)----100°C(212°F) Mobil 1 75W-90 gear oil------------106--------------15.2 Mobil 1 20W-50 V-twin-------------130--------------17.0 Mobil 1 10W-40 MX4T bike oil---- 86--------------13.8 Mobil 1 15W-50 car oil-------------125--------------17.4 Mobil 1 MX2T 2-Cycle oil---------- 90---------------13.7 H-D Sport Trans fluid--------------100-----------12.2-13 To summarize the MSDS physical data: Sport-Trans fluid is a sweet smelling, clear, light brown, insoluble, stable liquid with a Density of 7.35 lb/gal, API Gravity of 28.9 meas., Viscosity of 100 at 40°C(104°F) and 12.2-13 at 100°C(212°F), Viscosity Index of 116, and a Pour Point of -20°F. It also contains phosphorus, sulfur, and zinc (quantities were not provided). The usual safety and health and emergency information filled most of the MSDS pages. Let me know if you would like a copy of the Sport-Trans MSDS. Mike. | ||
| Rick_A |
Most synthetics for motorcycles are now formulated for wet clutches. You've gotta read and understand the back of the label. It's not always the case. The ones that work use additives to make it work with the clutches...not the other way around. Friction modifiers are put in for clutches...and to aid break-in. They don't work against them! If you see an "SJ" designation it has them. Running synthetic motor oil through your wet clutch? How about taking a look at the back of that bottle? Most automotive synthetic oils LACK these extra additives. Synthetic oils can then cause leaks then, can't they Blake? I didn't say it's always the case but it is a possibility. In a very worn engine it is a liability. All oils have detergents...synthetics actually have a lot less detergents and additives...'cause the base stock is so much better. That's the whole point of synthetic oil! Its base stock is formulated to perform most of the oils functions without as many additives. Due to having a higher film strength it can be formulated thinner than an equivalent dino oil. See, regular dino oil uses a base stock that largely determines it's viscosity which then holds all it's additives in suspension...which it needs in order to preserve it's base and maintain the required properties. This base, the deteriorating additives, and the subsequent tendency to hold onto contaminants thereafter is what can sludge in an engine. The synthetic oil has a smaller, much more uniform molecular structure than dino oils that aids in getting into spaces the regular oil may have sludged into. That's what blows the crap out. Most of you guys have this basic information backwards. If a manufacturer ships a new vehicle with a particular kind of synthetic oil then obviously they've done their homework. Most engines are meant to run at certain tolerances. They are slightly "tight" when new and usually have bearing surfaces that need to "bed" in. Running an improper synthetic will not let the engine reach those optimum tolerances and could lead to serious problems. Should a regular hiney with no knowledge of synthetic oils do that? You tell me. Again...there are additives ADDED to some blends of synthetics to AID in BREAK-IN called FRICTION MODIFIERS. They give these general guidelines to techs because these situations do pose a possibility for failure...and no shop wants that on their ass. In that case they go by the manufacturer's recommendation and not deviate from it, period...unless a customer specifies otherwise. Who's propagating a myth here? Judging by some of the misinformation in the above posts I wouldn't say its me. Maybe I over exaggerated but those things can happen. Luckily the oil manufacturers have been doing their homework or a lot of you guys would have probably been screwed. | ||
| Rick_A |
I also want to add that obviously, yeah, synthetic oils are vastly superior to conventional oil in most situations. I have no doubt about that. I use the stuff myself. I am no way against it...but there are always exceptions. | ||
| Xb9er |
Rick_A Synthetic Oil Myths. I think you've got it backwards about friction modifiers in synthetic oils and wet clutches. From the Mobil 1 website: If an oil product says "Energy Conserving" on the label, it contains friction modifiers and should not be used in motorcycle engines because the clutch will slip. Read more synthetic oil FAQs here: Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oils Mike. | ||
| Rick_A |
Well, the info I got was a bit misleading. Most car oils and some motorcycle oils use friction modifiers to reduce friction and increase mileage as desired by the EPA. The difference is that most of the cycle oils using friction modifiers are using ones tested for use in wet clutches. So it's the kind of friction modifiers that can be bad...most any motorcycle specific oil should be compatible. So it seems to be true...that synthetic oil on its own is not harmful to clutches. I was wrong about that...sadly enough that's what I was taught. Most motorcycle oil companies are not compliant with the EPA's oil mandates...as our engines need more of the zinc and phosphorus additives that have been removed from car oils. I did some research...and after fuels got oxygenated by the EPA, there was a 3% decline in mileage and performance. So in 1996 they added friction modifiers in an attempt to make up for that through oil additives. Bottom line is that most motorcycle specific oils, synthetic or dino, friction modifiers or not, should be fine with wet clutches. I think my source was just outdated  | ||
| Blake |
XB9R, Thank you for helping to expose of one of the myths to which Rick has fallen victim. I'll attempt to educate the wild rider Rick on the others. Wish me luck.  Rick, "Friction modifiers... If you see an "SJ" designation it has them." Not for W40 weight oils and up. Possibly true for 30 weight and under "energy conserving" oils. Forty weight and up engine oils are not subject to the EPA "energy conserving" restrictions; they will not be considered "energy conserving" since the main parameter affecting parasitic power losses to the oil is simply the viscosity. Higher viscosity means significantly moe parasitic power loss to the oil. Many new cars, even Ford trucks, are running twenty weight engine oil. The "energy conserving" qualification is mainly due to the lower viscosity. Better surface finishes and engine design and tighter tolerances allow the use of such low viscosity oils with no averse effects. "Synthetic oils can then cause leaks then, can't they Blake?" Not any more Rick. That is a myth based on some truth but that is no longer applicable. "I didn't say it's always the case but it is a possibility. In a very worn engine it is a liability." You implied it was a significant concern. It is not "All oils have detergents" That was not always the case. At one time no engine oils contained detergents. Can you see how rumors start? Did you know that many brands of engine oil used to be paraffin based? "...synthetics actually have a lot less detergents and additives...'cause the base stock is so much better." Really? How do they keep the combustion chamber clean so well? Please define "better." "That's the whole point of synthetic oil! Its base stock is formulated to perform most of the oils functions without as many additives." I agree. Do you know which specific properties that the purpose built synthetic base stocks posses that are superior to those of conventional base oils? What specific types of additives do the superior properties of synthetics render unnecessary? Due to having a higher film strength it can be formulated thinner than an equivalent dino oil. Synthetics do have a higher film strength, but that is not what allows them to maintain low viscosity at low temperatures while acting like a high viscosity oil at high temperatures. "See, regular dino oil uses a base stock that largely determines it's viscosity" The same is true for synthetics. The difference is that purpose built synthetic bases retain more of their viscosity at higher temperatures, they are inherently stable multi-viscosity oils. Conventional oils however require special additives to achieve meaningful multi-viscosity performance. "...which then holds all it's additives in suspension" Except for snake oil products like schlock fifty or oils containing powdered graphite, motor oils are homogeneous chemical solutions; everything in them is dissolved like sugar in your coffee; they do not contain any suspended solids, at least not until they enter a running engine and become contaminated with various debris. "This base, the deteriorating additives, and the subsequent tendency to hold onto contaminants thereafter is what can sludge in an engine." Sludge forms when water contaminates the oil and especially when the water freezes. This can be exacerbated in conventionally based oils when some of the additives react with combustion byproducts to form acidic compounds. "The synthetic oil has a smaller, much more uniform molecular structure than dino oils that aids in getting into spaces the regular oil may have sludged into. That's what blows the crap out." Uniform, yes, smaller no. Synthetic oil is comprised of uniformly long chains of hydrocarbon molecules. When cold, the molecules contract/shrink; when hot they unravel/elongate. Thus they flow easily in cod temperatures, while retaining their viscosity at high temperatures. Conventional base oils however are laden with junky short little volatile hydrocarbon molecules. Some more than others. They require viscosity improvers to allow them to achieve the required multi-viscosity performance. It is those viscosity improvers that break down, deteriorate and cause the properties of conventional based oils to degrade so severely compared to teh purpose built synthetics. "Most of you guys have this basic information backwards." Are you sure? Where are you getting your information? The credibility of your source is questionable. "Most engines are meant to run at certain tolerances. They are slightly "tight" when new and usually have bearing surfaces that need to "bed" in." Which bearing surfaces would those be?  "Running an improper synthetic will not let the engine reach those optimum tolerances and could lead to serious problems." Please explain why. "Should a regular hiney with no knowledge of synthetic oils do that? You tell me. Again...there are additives ADDED to some blends of synthetics to AID in BREAK-IN called FRICTION MODIFIERS." Can you provide a source for that information? "They give these general guidelines to techs because these situations do pose a possibility for failure...and no shop wants that on their ass." What are you talking about? Who are "they"? Please explain what possibilities for failure a synthetic oil might pose. "In that case they go by the manufacturer's recommendation and not deviate from it, period...unless a customer specifies otherwise." I don't see anywhere in my owner's manual or in my service manual where Buell recommends against using synthetic oil. "Who's propagating a myth here?" You are. "Judging by some of the misinformation in the above posts I wouldn't say its me." You'd be wrong. "Maybe I over exaggerated but those things can happen." They are not factors even worth considering in modern engines. "Luckily the oil manufacturers have been doing their homework or a lot of you guys would have probably been screwed." WTF are you talking about?  Rick, my Buell's clutch does not share lubricant with the engine, but if it did, I defy you to find any 40 or 50 weight engine oil that is designated as "energy conserving." As far as the anti-wear additive packages being more robust in some motorcycle specific oils versus automotive oils... that has been proven a blatant lie. Motorcycle Consumer News looked into that and found that most motorcycle specific oils were no better and in fact inferior to many name brand automotive oils; all were inferior to name brand synthetic motor oils. An oil containing greater concentrations of anti-wear additives provides no better protection versus an oil with less of the same additives. As long as the anti-wear additives are not critically depleted they will provide the same level of protection. With regular maintenance (oil/filter changes), the chance of anti-wear additives being so depleted is extremely improbable. How does an engine break-in and "bed in" bearing surfaces with all those anti-wear additives in the oil? "So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 MX4T has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage." Does Mobil-1 15W50 contain friction modifiers? If Mobil-1 automotive engine oil is available in a W40 weight grade, does it contain friction modifiers? Would you please explain what exactly a friction modifier does? Why use an expensive synthetic oil to break-in an engine when you are going to change the oil within the first 500 to 1,000 miles? Therein is one of the best reasons to avoid synthetics during break-in. Let go of the myths. Blake | ||
| Jprovo |
Guys, Thanks for backing me up that Rick was propagating the synthetic oil myth. Rick, I'm glad that you're re-thinking your position. Xb9er, I'll try to con a copy of page 1 of the MSDS out of my dealer, it might not have any data that is usefull though. Lornce, Thanks, I've always wondered what caused gear oil to smell like it does. Even though the smell is not that pleasant, it does bring back memories of my father and I working on cars. James | ||
| Rick_A |
Okay...this tells it better than I can: http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/synth.tml High engine temperatures and heavy loads (as typically found in towing or racetrack applications) cause these chains to break down and the base stock actually boils off causing a change of viscosity and the formulation of sludge. This can happen at temperatures as low as 230º F and by 250º F many petroleum oils are suffering significant breakdown. Synthetic oils on the other hand are made engineered specifically to provide all the lubricating properties that natural oil possesses, but none of the cold thickening or hot thinning properties of petroleum oil. Synthetics are made up of uniformly shaped molecules with shorter carbon chains which are much more resistant to heat and stress. What did that say? Shorter carbon strains in synthetic? What was that, breakdown and sludge? It happens under normal use as well, just at a much slower rate. The viscosity improver additives in petroleum oils break down as well. Synthetics have a lower pour point. I'm sure everyone has noticed that. Synthetics divide their film to a thinner layer than possible with petroleum oil while maintaining equal lubricating ability. The quote above points that out. That's why it can be considered a liability in a very worn engine or in some that are not yet broken in...why do I feel like I'm repeating myself? An engine needs to break in to achieve optimum clearances and seat rings, correct? After that is achieved the aim is to keep it there, is it not? I don't think you'd want precision fit plain bearings or bushings to stay a little "tight", or run "loose" would you? I've found out those cars sold with synthetic oils are designed and engineered to break in with it. You'd better go with your manufacturer's recommendation. It's not just for the sake of economic factors, Blake. I've also found out that friction modifiers are added to engine oils to provide friction or increase efficiency. It's not specifically an anti-wear additive, as you alluded to. So, it is used in some instances to aid clutches or to increase efficiency. The deal about anti wear additives being less robust in bikes...well, there are meshed gears and sometimes clutches to deal with in bikes. It's a compromise most car engines don't have to deal with, ain't it? More myth?: from http://www.appliancemagazine.com Synthetic esters, which are chemically similar to PAOs, have an inherent polarity that makes them even less volatile and more lubricious. They are often blended with PAOs or other synthetic oils in lubricant formulations. Due to their affinity for metal, especially steel and iron, esters provide maximum wear protection. They are ideal for loaded bearings, potentiometers, and cut-metal and powdered-metal gearing, if proper seals are used. Because esters can withstand temperatures as high as 180°C, they have become the choice for severe duty applications. However, esters have been known to attack certain plastics and elastomers. I'm not all crazy, am I?  Of course a synthetic oil manufacturer won't tell you their oil's disadvantages...or the fact most last over 2 to 3 times longer than petroleum oils...and petroleum oil manufacturers won't tell how much better a synthetic is...and will exaggerate a synthetics few disadvantages. As far as specific additives in specific oil...you can figure that stuff out Blake. I have a list but it is non specific and doesn't offer any explanations. You seem to love that kinda thing  . Did you know H-D motor oil is formulated by Sunoco? | ||
| Rick_A |
Here's some info on Harley oil I found: http://www.capitolhd.com/oil.php A lot of info on "superior" H-D oils. Ingredient.....................................Benefit Premium quality mineral oil Engine cooling & superior lubrication Dispersants Sludge & varnish control for pistons Metal detergents Neutralizes acids & prevents rust Antioxidants Prevents thickening of oil Anti-wear agents Protects valve train Viscosity modifiers Stay-in grade consistancy Pour depressants Ensure low temp flow Rust inhibitors Prevent rust Anti-foam additives Prevent foam Synthetic needs less/none of some of the above...as well as having some specific additives or their own. I haven't been able to find that specific info yet, though. Then you have from Harley's website: Genuine Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Oil Harley-Davidson Genuine H-D 360 Motorcycle Oil is the only oil developed and tested exclusively for use in Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Our unique additive package helps prevent engine wear and helps keep your engine cooler, cleaner, free of sludge, varnish and corrosion. Harley-Davidson V-Twin motorcycles operate at higher temperatures than water-cooled automobiles, thus a specific high temperature additive package is necessary to protect the air-cooled engine. Be assured, H-D 360 is the only oil that should be trusted in a Harley-Davidson V-Twin engine. Available in SAE 10W40, SAE 20W50, SAE 50 and SAE 60. Refer to your Harley-Davidson owner’s manual for the proper SAE grade recommendation based on the climate and temperature range you ride in. I don't believe it. From personal experience I know synthetic is FAR superior...but petroleum oil should be used for break in. Those cars running synthetic from the start...are designed to only run synthetic for the lifetime of the engine. Genuine Harley-Davidson® Oil Filters Harley-Davidson is taking lead in the industry with this breakthrough filter. It uses a synthetic media that provides nominal 10 micron filtration with increased retained capacity for dust, soot and other solid matter. Low internal pressure drop Integral Pressure Relief Valve, Integral Anti-Drain Back Valve. Available in chrome or black, this is the best filtration available and will retrofit to most earlier models. Yeah, there's more sales pitch there, but don't you think it's that way for a reason? Note synthetic media...not paper. | ||
| Bomber |
Just as a back-up for Blake's statement regarding detergents and oil . . .. . when buyin oil for the 31 ford in the motorpool, I've got to special order non-detergent oil . . . I've hardly ever seen it stocked . . . .. | ||
| Rick_A |
You guys know what application synthetic oil originated from? Some modern air compressors and small engines require non-detergent, too. I've always been able to find it at NAPA stores. My original statement was meant to say that all motor oils have additives...at least since 1949. Oops. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Rick, I believe synthetic oil was developed for jet engines. Mineral oil turned to goo when placed into the first jet engines so they had to develop an alternative. | ||
| Blake |
Rick, Are you a technical expert on the subject of motor oils? You are certainly very self assured in the assertions you have made and are making. From what I can tell, your sources of information are questionable. Maybe some of them are reliable, I don't know. I would ask, since you see fit to offer your opinions as fact, if you would please also offer the qualifications that allow you to discern fact from fiction when interpreting technical information about motor oil? In other words, what baseline of expertise do you have that would allow you to evaluate and recognize truth versus fiction in such a technical subject? One of the most basic ways to help sort the hype and marketing speal from fact is in understanding the basic rudimentary mechanism governing the performance of thin film lubrication. Do you know the defining relationship for thin film lubrication? If you did indeed look through the all the archives here you should have run accross it. | ||
| Aaron |
Rick, what is it about synthetic oil that makes it unsuitable for break-in? Mobil and Amsoil disagree with you btw, both of them labeling it a "myth". | ||
| Blake |
Rick, According to Mobil, they developed synthetic grease for the wheel bearings of aircraft in WW-II. I think it was the rigorous low temperature requirements of the space program that later drove them to develop synthetic oils. Dan, I'm pretty sure that old jet engines ran fine on conventional oil. Jet (turbine) engines after all have been around since the Germans invented them in 1944. You've been reading the Amsoil hype haven't you. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Blake, You just had to challenge me didn't you?? http://www.oil4kids.com/syn-hist.htm Looks like I was right in a way. Jets were the first practical application for synthetic oil. Yes, its an amsoil article but it was told to me a long time before I knew about Amsoil. |
