| Author | Message | ||
     Ironhead1977 |
This is a copy of an email a buddy sent me regarding the recent pirate eposode.Thought you folks would like to read it. Having spoken to some SEAL pals here in Virginia Beach yesterday and asking why this thing dragged out for 4 days, I got the following: 1. BHO wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation. 2. Once they arrived, BHO imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger 3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the raggies all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction 4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the raggies were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in. 5. BHO specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams 6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours! later, 3 dead raggies 7. BHO immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behaviour. As usual with him, it's BS. So per our last email thread, I'm downgrading Oohbaby's performace to D-. Only reason it's not an F is that the hostage survived. Read the following accurate account. Philips’ first leap into the warm, dark water of the Indian Ocean Bainbridge in range and a rescue by his country’s Navy possible, Philips threw himself off of his lifeboat prison, enabling Navy shooters onboard the destroyer a clear shot at his captors — and none was taken. The guidance from National Command Authority — the president of the United States, Barack Obama — had been clear: a peaceful solution was the only acceptable outcome to this standoff unless the hostage’s life was in clear, extreme danger. The next day, a small Navy boat approaching the floating raft was fired on by the Somali pirates — and again no fire was returned and no pirates killed. This was again due to the cautious stance assumed by Navy personnel thanks to the combination of a lack of clear guidance from Washington and a mandate from the commander in chief’s staff not to act until Obama, a man with no background of dealing with such issues and no track record of decisiveness, decided that any outcome other than a “peaceful solution” would be acceptable. After taking fire from the Somali kidnappers again Saturday night, the onscenecommander decided he’d had enough. Keeping his authority to act in the case of a clear and present danger to the hostage’s life and having heard nothing from Washington since yet another request to mount a rescue operation had been denied the day before, the Navy officer — unnamed in all media reports to date — decided the AK47 one captor had leveled at Philips’ back was a threat to the hostage’s life and ordered the NSWC team to take their shots. Three rounds downrange later, all three brigands became enemy KIA and Philips was safe. There is upside, downside, and spinside to the series of events over the last week that culminated in yesterday’s dramatic rescue of an American hostage. Almost immediately following word of the rescue, the Obama administration and its supporters claimed victory against pirates in the Indian Ocean and [1] declared that the dramatic end to the standoff put paid to questions of the inexperienced president’s toughness and decisiveness. Despite the Obama administration’s (and its sycophants’) attempt to spin yesterday’s success as a result of bold, decisive leadership by the inexperienced president, the reality is nothing of the sort. What should have been a standoff lasting only hours — as long as it took the USS Bainbridge and its team of NSWC operators to steam to the location — became an embarrassing four day and counting standoff between a ragtag handful of criminals with rifles and a U.S. Navy warship. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
No surprise here. The man is a total loser. Perhaps, he can move to Cuba or South America with his new buds when we retire his ass in 2012. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
ROE suck. They are pirates. There is no reason for ROE. Maybe there's parts I don't know or something, but it doesn't make any sense to me to give them any mercy when our peoples lives are at risk. We have the most kick @$$ military force ever known to man, let them do the job at hand. Just my 2cents | ||
| Loki |
I'd let him emigrate, just do not think anyone would let him immigrate. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
that doesn't surprise me at all that something like this comes to lite. at least in didn't turn out like jimmies debocle did. you have to give the man who gave the orders to go ahead and take em out and he'll worry about the consequences later your hats off cause it did go on to long. i've always been proud of serving in the navy and it's great to see we have some great men and woman serving today. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
we should still be keel hauling pirates. International waters, international maritime laws... total news black out, results three days earlier And a few flaming small boys that get washed up on shore with a message to the rest. Hell remember Clinton wouldnt let the AC130 cover over Somalia because of the 'perception' it caused, Asshats. all about news soundbites | ||
| Cudajohn |
The SEALs were not DevGru SEALs. The rest though is all very very much probable. Democratic Presidents and Somali conflicts usually are FUBAR. The fact that this situation ended on a positive note lends credit to the belief that the OSC and SEAL Team ldr. toulk the con. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Please, please. Give this shit a rest. Odd that you all seem to know what's best for the world, yet you waste all your time on this stupid forum. Get into Politics and change the world, or shut up. I think most of you know a lot less than you think you do. Go do something productive for a frickin' change. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
LOL..... who pissed in your coffee? | ||
| Nevrenuf |
wouldn't be much of a forum if we all agreed to the same thing. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
wouldn't be much of a forum if we all agreed to the same thing. True, but this whole ripping your president to shreds every 5 minutes is getting a little old, even for the likes of me who couldn't really give a toss. Just my opinion, but as an outside observer with no political affiliation, I have noticed the difference in attitude to your top man. Anybody criticizing GWB in such a fashion a year or so ago would have been shouted down & accused of being un-american or somesuch thing. As I say I've no axe to grind here (he's your president not mine), just pointing out how it looks from outside. | ||
| Ironhead1977 |
Grumpy did you read the report? No one is bashing Obama. That is the truth being told. | ||
| Moxnix |
Grumpy, we who follow international news know the Frenchies don't squat to pee on Afrika operations, and you folk with outright commies in your government who don't know a camel poop from a chimpanzee while they sip Pernot at the sidewalk cafes of Paris, which they never leave. Leave us to expose our outright opportunists in the White House in peace. | ||
| Cudajohn |
True, but this whole ripping your president to shreds every 5 minutes is getting a little old Sounds like the last eight years. Liberal minded people confuse me, when Bush was in office there were Bush effigy burnings. Do it now with BHO and you'll be picked up in a Black SUV. BTW, I am not a Rep. nor do I support the GOP. I think the two major parties are more like each other until you get on the outer fringes of either (i.e. Pelosi, Reid, Limbaugh) From a third party supporter (Libertarian) I see that Liberals are usually much nastier in their criticism and claim more sensational falsehoods than the conservative side. You know, just pointing out how it looks from outside. I'll post this for what it's worth. I got it in an e-mail today. Quote: Your "Real" story is not exactly the way I heard it, and probably has a few political twists thrown in to stir the pot.* Rather than me trying to correct it, I'll just tell you what I found out from my contacts at NSWC Norfolk and at SOCOM Tampa. First though, let me orient you to familiarize you with the "terrain." In Africa from Djibouti at the southern end of the Red Sea eastward through the Gulf of Aden to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa (also known as "The Horn of Africa") is about a 600 nm transit before you stand out into the Indian Ocean.* That transit is comparable in distance to that from the mouth of the Mississippi at New Orleans to the tip of Florida at Key West-- except that 600 nm over there is infested with Somalia pirates. Ships turning southward at the Horn of Africa transit the SLOC (Sea Lane of Commerce) along the east coast of Somalia because of the prevailing southerly currents there.* It's about 1,500 nm on to Mombassa, which is just south of the equator in Kenya.* Comparably, that's about the transit distance from Portland Maine down the east coast of the US to Miami Florida.* In other words, the ocean area being patrolled by our naval forces off the coast of Somalia is comparable to that in the Gulf of Mexico from the Mississippi River east to Miami then up the eastern seaboard to Maine. * Second, let me globally orient you from our Naval Operating Base in Norfolk, VA, east across the Atlantic to North Africa, thence across the Med to Suez in Egypt, thence southward down the Red Sea to Djibouti at the Gulf of Aden, thence eastward to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa, and thence southerly some 300 miles down the east cost of Somali out into the high seas of the Indian Ocean to the position of MV ALABAMA is a little more than 7,000 nm, and plus-nine time-zones ahead of EST. Hold that thought, in that, a C-17 transport averaging a little better than 400 kts (SOG) takes the best part of 18 hours to make that trip. In the evening darkness late Thursday night, a team of Navy SEALs from NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) Norfolk parachuted from such a C-17 into the black waters (no refraction of light) of the Indian Ocean-- close-aboard to our 40,000 ton amphibious assault ship, USS BOXER (LHD 4), the flagship of our ESG (Expeditionary Strike Group) in the AOR (Area Of Responsibility, the Gulf of Aden).* They not only parachuted in with all of their "equipment," they had their own inflatable boats, RHIB's (Rigid Hull, Inflatable Boats) with them for over-water transport.* They went into BOXER's landing dock, debarked, and staged for the rescue-- Thursday night. And, let me comment on time-late:* In that the SEAL's quick response-- departing ready-alert in less than 4 hours from Norfolk-- supposedly surprised POTUS's staff, whereas President Obama was miffed not to get his "cops" there before the Navy.* He reportedly questioned his staff, "Will 'my' FBI people get there before the Navy does?"* It took the FBI almost 12 hours to put together a team and get them packed-up-- for an "at sea" rescue.* The FBI was trying to tell him that they are not practiced to do this-- Navy SEALs are.* But, BHO wanted the FBI there "to help," that is, carry out the Attorney General's (his) orders to negotiate the release of Captain Phillips peacefully-- because apparently he doesn't trust GW's military to carry out his "political guidance." The flight of the FBI's passenger jet took a little less than 14 hours at 500-some knots to get to Djibouti.* BOXER'S helos picked them up and transported them out to the ship.* The Navy SEALs were already there, staged, and ready to act by the time POTUS's FBI arrived on board later that evening.* Notably, the first request by the OSC (On Scene Commander) that early Friday morning to take them out and save Captain Phillips was denied, to wit:* "No, wait until 'my' FBI people get there." Third, please consider a candid assessment of ability that finds that the FBI snipers had never practiced shooting from a rolling, pitching, yawing, surging, swaying, heaving platform-- and, target-- such as a ship and a lifeboat on the high seas.* Navies have been doing since Admiral Nelson who had trained "Marines" to shoot muskets from the ship's rigging-- ironically, he was killed at sea in HMS VICTORY at the Battle of Trafalgar by a French Marine rifleman that shot him from the rigging of the French ship that they were grappling alongside. * Notably, when I was first training at USNA in 1955, the Navy was doing it with a SATU, Small Arms Training Unit, based at our Little Creek amphib base.* Now, Navy SEAL's, in particular SEAL Team SIX (The "DevGru") based at NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) at Little Creek do that training now, and hone their skills professionally-- daily. Shooting small arms from a ship is more of an accomplished "Art Form" than it is a practiced skill.* When you are "in the bubble" and "in tune" with the harmonic motion you find, through practice, that you are "able to put three .308 slugs inside the head of a quarter at 100 meters, in day or night-- or, behind a camouflaged net or a thin enclosure, such as a superstructure bulkhead.* Yes, we have the monocular scopes that can "see" heat-- and, draw a bead on it.* SEALs are absolutely expert at it-- with the movie clips to prove it. * Okay, now try to imagine patrolling among the boats fishing everyday out on the Grand Banks off our New England coast, and then responding to a distress call from down around the waters between Florida and the Bahamas.* Three points for you to consider here:* (1) Time-Distance-Speed relationships for ships on the high seas, for instance, at a 25-knot SOA (Speed Of Advance) it takes 24 hours to make good 600 nm-- BAINBRIDGE did.* (2) Fishermen work on the high seas, and (3) The best place to hide as a "fisherman" pirate is among other fishermen Early Wednesday morning, 4/8/2009, MV ALABAMA is at sea in the IO about 300 miles off the (east) coast of Somalia en route to Mombassa Kenya. Pirates in small boat start harassing her, and threatening her with weapons.* MV ALABAMA's captain sent out the distress call by radio, and ordered his Engineer to shut down the engines as well as the ship-service electrical generators-- in our lingo, "Go dark and cold." He informed his crew by radio what was happening, and ordered them to go to an out-of-the-way compartment and lock themselves in it-- from the inside.* He would stay in the pilot house to "negotiate" with the pirates. The pirates boarded, captured the Captain, and ordered him to start the engines.* He said he would order his Engineer to do so, and he called down to Engine Control on the internal communication system, but got no answer.* The lead pirate ordered two of his four men to go down and find him and get the engines started. * Inside a ship without any lights is like the definition of dark.* The advantage goes to the people who work and live there.* They jumped the two pirates in a dark passageway.* Both pirates lost their weapons, but one managed to scramble and get away.* The other they tied up, put tape over his mouth and a knife at his throat. * Other members of the crew opened the drain cocks on the pirates boat and cast it adrift.* It foundered and sunk.* The scrambling pirate made it back to the pilot house and told of his demise.* The pirates took the Captain at gun point, and told him to launch one of his rescue boats (not a life boat, per se).* As he was lowering the boat for them, the crew appeared with the other pirate to negotiate a trade.* The crew let their hostage go to soon, and the pirates kept the captain.* But, he purposefully had lowered the boat so it would jam. * With the rescue boat jammed, the pirates jumped over to a lifeboat and released it as the captain jumped in the water.* They fired at him, made him stop, and grabbed him out of the water.* Now, as night falls in the vastness of the Indian Ocean, we have the classic "Mexican" standoff, to wit:* A life-boat that is just that, a life-boat adrift without any means of propulsion except oars and paddles; and, a huge (by comparison) Motor Vessel Container Ship adrift with a crew that is not going to leave their captain behind.* The pirates are enclosed under its shelter-covering, holding the captain as their hostage.* The crew is hunkered down in their ship waiting for the "posse" to arrive. After receiving MV ALABAMA'S distress call, USS BAINBRIDGE (DDG 96) was dispatched by the ESG commander to respond to ALABAMA's distress call. At best sustainable speed, she arrived on scene the day after-- that is, in the dark of that early Thursday morning.* As BAINBRIDGE quietly and slowly, at darkened-ship without any lights to give her away, arrived on scene, please consider a recorded interview with the Chief Engineer of MV ALABAMA describing BAINBRIDGE's arrival.* He said it was something else "... to see the Navy slide in there like a greyhound!"* He then said as she slipped in closer he could see the "Stars and Stripes" flying from her masthead.* He got choked up saying it was the "...proudest moment of my life." * Phew!* Let that sink in. * Earlier in the day, one of the U.S. Navy's Maritime Patrol Aircraft, a fixed wing P3C, flew over to recon the scene.* They dropped a buoy with a radio to the pirates so that the Navy's interpreter could talk with the pirates.* When BAINBRIDGE arrived, the pirates thought the radio to be a beaconing device, and threw it overboard.* They wanted a satellite telephone so that they could call home for help.* Remember now, they are fishermen, not "Rocket Scientists," in that, they don't know that we can intercept the phone transmission also. MV ALABAMA* provided them with a satellite phone.* They called home back to "somebody" in Eyl Somalia (so that we now know where you live) to come out and get them.* The "somebody" in Eyl said they would be out right away with other hostages, like 54 of them from other countries, and that they would be coming out in two of their pirated ships. Right-- and, the tooth fairy will let you have sex with her.* Yea, in paradise.* The "somebody" in Eyl just chalked up four more expendables as overhead for "the cost of operation."* Next page. * Anyway, ESG will continue to "watch" Eyl for any ships standing out. The Navy SEAL team, SEAL TEAM SIX, from NSWC briefed the OSC (Commander Castellano, CO BAINBRIDGE) on how they could rescue the captain from the life boat with swimmers-- "Combat Swimmers," per se.* That plan was denied by POTUS because it put the captain in danger-- and, involved killing the pirates. * The FBI negotiators arrived on scene, and talked the pirates into sending their wounded man over for treatment Saturday morning.* Later that afternoon, the SEAL's sent over their RHIB with food and water to recon the life boat but the pirates shot at it.* They could have taken them out then (from being fired upon) but were denied again being told that the captain was not in "imminent danger."* The FBI negotiators calmed the situation by informing the pirates of threatening weather as they could see storm clouds closing from the horizon, and offered to tow the life boat.* The pirates agreed, and BAINBRIDGE took them under tow in their wake at 30 meters-- exactly 30 meters, which is exactly the distance the SEALs practice their shooting skills. With the lifeboat under tow, riding comfortably bow-down on BAINBRIDGE's wake-wave ("rooster tail"), had a 17-second period of harmonic motion, and at the end of every half-period (8.5 seconds) was steady on.* The light-enhanced (infra-red heat) monocular scopes on the SEAL's .308 caliber Mark 11 Mod 0 H&K suppressor-fitted sniper rifles easily imaged their target very clearly.* Pirates in a life boat at 30-meters could be compared to fish in a barrel.* All that was necessary was to take out the plexiglass window so that it would not deflect the trajectory of the high velocity .308 round.* So, a sniper (one of four) with a wad-cutter round (a flaxen sabot) would take out the window a split second before the kill-shot-- no change in sight-picture, just the window blowing out, clean. * Now, here's the part BHO's "whiz kids" knew as well as the Navy hierarchy, including CO BAINBRIDGE and CO SEAL TEAM SIX.* It's the law in Article 19 of Appendix L in the "Convention of the High Seas" that the Commanding Officer of a US Ship on the high seas is obligated to respond to distress signals from any flagged ship (US or otherwise), and protect the life and property thereof when deemed to be in IMMINENT DANGER.* So, in the final analysis, it would be Captain Castellano call as to "Imminent Danger," and that he alone was obligated (duty bound) to act accordingly. Got the picture? * After medically attending to the wounded pirate, and feeding him, come first light (from the east) on Easter Sunday morning and the pirates saw they were being towed further out to sea (instead of westward toward land), the wounded pirate demanded to be returned to the lifeboat. There would BE NO more negotiations-- and, the four Navy SEAL snipers "in the bubble" went "Unlock."* The pirate holding Captain Philips raised the gun to his head, and IMMINENT DANGER was so observed and noted in the Log as CO BAINBRIDGE gave the classic order: WEAPONS RELEASED!** I can hear the echo in my earpiece now, "On my count (from 8.5 seconds), 3, 2, 1, !"* POP, BANG!* Out went the window, followed by three simultaneous shots.* The scoreboard flashed: "GAME OVER, GAME OVER-- NAVY 3, PIRATES 0!" * I hope you found the above informative as best I know it-- and, please excuse me in that after more than 50 years the Navy is still in me.* I submit that AMERICA is going to make a comeback, and more than likely it'll be on the back of our cherished youth serving with honor in Our military.* So, let's Look Up, Get Up-- and, Never Give Up! Unquote (Message edited by Cudajohn on April 26, 2009) | ||
| Bill0351 |
"Grumpy did you read the report? No one is bashing Obama. That is the truth being told." That is just too funny! "Report?" It's an unattributed email forward that is probably going to be on Snopes within 24 hours. Truth being told? Your "in box" is almost never a good source of news. Bill | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Moxnix, sorry mate I didn't understand that post at all. Are you saying the French do nothing in Africa? If so you're looking at the wrong news media. French marines took down a pirate crew a couple of weeks back, 1 hostage dead, 2 pirates dead & the rest prisoners. French military are involved in lots of stuff, including providing air cover for your troops in Afghanistan, & to my knowledge, they're not unhappy with that. Yes there are communist politicians here, voted in by the voters, that's democracy my friend, it's a free country, enshrined in the constitution. Much like over there. You may have a point about the outright opportunists however, they don't last long here, & so far we've managed to avoid electing one president. But we don't have all the commercial election hoopla you guys have to suffer either. That reminds me, the 2012 campaign should be kicking off soon, who's your money on?  | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Can't we just have a nice slap fight over an oil thread like normal? This is tiresome. | ||
| Moxnix |
Grumps-- Ganz in gegenteil, exactly the opposite. By suggesting the French DO NOT squat to pee in Afrique, I mean your overseas operations involve force when required. The term "squat to pee" is colloquial, meaning sitting to go potty like girls. It was meant as a compliment. My mother is of French decent, would be heartbroken should I cast slurs on the country that cast out her Hugenot forebearers. As for 2012, after the choice of McCain & Obama last year, I may not vote for president. It is my right and privilege to withhold my vote from opportunists from any party. At a party in Poland back in the 1980s, I asked my host what the percentage of communists was in the country. He replied that they had no communists, only a handful of opportunists, and even they had their children baptized in church. Your communists go on the ballot clearly identifying their ideology, ours are not so honest. Lenin wrote that the basic question of revolution is the question of power in the state. We know, here, who is now consolidating their power for "change." Red, pink or simply opportunists, we shall know in time. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Your communists go on the ballot clearly identifying their ideology, ours are not so honest. I would argue that this president's ideology was clearly worn on his sleeve, but most Americans, like the media, chose not see the negative aspects of the man they all chose to go to bed with on sight alone. Don't judge a book by its cover. Sometimes a really good book has a lousy cover. But in my experience, most times the case is a really good cover has a really shi++y book behind it. | ||
| Xblaw |
I am nowhere near a fan of BHO, but I do say this will be on Snopes soon. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
i am a democrat and i didn't vote for bho or gwb for that matter and i thought i was doing the right thing when i voted for clinton.(work was good for me in construction) the thing i do see is it seems that democratic presidents aren't able to make snap judgement calls. now as far as the french goes mr grumpy, i enjoyed partying with them in djibouti. still have the french naval shirt(i don't know what happened to the pants) that i traded one of my uniforms for.(i think they were the dungaree's) they were nice enough to chase off an african gunship for us and my first granbaby(due any time now) will be an archambeau. can't get much more french than that. | ||
| Moxnix |
I voted on local and state issues on '08, passed on the chance to cast for the top national spot. Voting for low quality candidates only encourages them, as we used to say and some of us still do. Enough free armagnac and I'll vote for whomever supplies it. | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Bill: Exactly--what report? This is an "I got an email from a guy who knows a guy who knows some guys who know what really went down" story. But some folks will take it for gospel, naturally, because it fits the Chambraign Principle (I believe it because it's exactly what I want to hear). This is every bit as authoritative as the "reports" about Clinton running cocaine through Mina, NV, or Bush failing his flight physical because of his drug abuse. Is anyone surprised? Captain Phillips was rescued, the pirates were killed or captured, the ship and its cargo reached port unharmed, so naturally this was a total cockup on Obama's part because it took too long. I recall Ft_B mentioning a little something a couple weeks ago about faux outrage. His words seem fitting in this case. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Rush Limbaugh critiqued BHO for actually doing the job, he killed three "teenagers", or that a white GOP president would've been critiqued for killing three black kids. Guess BHO would be damned if he did or damned if he didn't. | ||
| Preybird1 |
I love it pirates in 2009 make em walk the plank | ||
| Jramsey |
.....make em walk the plank . . . . . . While wearing cement over shoes. | ||
| Bill0351 |
I have a 12' aluminum boat with a '76 Evinrude 6 horse on it. I was thinking of taking to the local waters around Green Bay and becoming a pirate myself. There are tons of shiny fiberglass monstrosities laying at anchor all over Door County. The FIBs will pay for their invasion of my state. A lot of teachers have jobs in the summer to help make ends meet. I hate landscaping and house painting, so I'm looking for an alternative. I will let you all know how it goes. I'm working on my "pirate name." Bill (Blueballs?) | ||
| Greenlantern |
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| Jstfrfun |
Anybody curious how the senator from Arizona would have handled it differently? Or maybe the same, with advisors to the left and the right telling him what to do, John never did have an idea of his own to offer to the people. Before during or after the election process, Obama is in the office let's deal with it not against it, we have never had a perfect president...ever. None of our elected officials have ever got it right in the first year much less the first five months! My guns haven't been threatened yet and the only problem I can currently see is buying ammo because of all the right wingers panicking and buying up everything available, and it's all rumor and innuendo, sound-bites and selected video clips, we had more fun with George's inability to speak the english language. | ||
| 86129squids |
I miss "The West Wing" TV show- good drama, great actors. Ants in yer pants!! Ack! Stop the flinchy knee jerkyherky. Let's talk about poppin pirates- that's fun. Give the POTUS and his crew a chance. Throw a towel over all the fulminating nutbags on the radio. Thank God the Shrub has new landscapes, far away from the White House. Someone needs to design a pirate hunting video game. I'd play. |
