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Scubarc51
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 07:13 pm: | 
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They are showing the ama race in fontana on speed again tonight at 9:00 central time on Speed. |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
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Hacking was breathing down his neck on race 2. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:20 pm: |
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Hacking was breathing down his neck on race 2.
Until they come out of the turns hit the straights. |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:27 pm: |
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Hate to say it but if Hacking had one more lap, he would got around him. But he didnt and the Buell wins! |
D_adams
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:33 pm: |
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Eslick was toying with him..... |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 11:43 pm: |
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Hate to say it but if Hacking had one more lap, he would got around him.
Maybe in the infield, but coming out of the turns and on the straights the Buell is just faster.
Hacking was in the draft and the Buell was pulling away from him.
Even if Hacking got around, and I think he would have, as soon as they pulled onto the straight and Eslick got in Hackings draft he would have come right back around.
Of course all just what if this or that. |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 05:00 am: |
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You must have been watching a different race than I did. In the "infield" both Hacking's and Eslick's bikes looked evenly matched at the end of the race, tho the Buell looked better early on. The Buell clearly pulled out of the corners better but it was just as obvious the Kawi did it's best catching up on the back end of the long straights. It just didn't have the power to pull around the Buell. I'd have to say that while those two bikes have slightly different strengths they are pretty closely matched. |
Backnblack
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 09:00 am: |
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Wow NASCAR in control, 1125R almost loses to a 600cc machine, what a joke. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 12:14 pm: |
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Bnb, it's about making the bikes equal with a formula, not about cc's. If it were about cc's then every company would have to build a bike with an engine that exactly fit the class rules. That's not going to happen.
So how do you get other brands in? Set rules so they are equal. At Road Atlanta the SportBike race just had 6 brands in the top 6 places, and all within 2 seconds; it doesn't get any better racing than that. And that is what we are talking about, racing, not spec sheet braggadocio. Now privateers with limited budgets can compete fairly with factory bikes. The class is awesome, dude.
The retarded Superbike class where the Japanese fought back the most against rule controls, and so are allowed to run exotic electronics, etc. has first place 23 seconds ahead of second. No racing happening there. |
Sportfit
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 12:26 pm: |
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i watched the last race. couple things re: "if there'd been one more lap...yada, yada, yada." dude, it's a race with a beginning and end. period.
what i don't get is how the classifications are arranged. seems like the 1125r would be in the same class as the litre bikes of about the same horsepower, but it's with 600s? what's the formula? |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 01:11 pm: |
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I'm actually enjoying all the whimpering and whining about the rules.
It's giving Buell/Eslick/Daytona Sportbike hundreds of times more bandwidth than Suzuki/Maladin/Superbike.
According to that logic Daytona Sportbike should be the "Premier Class" not Superbike.
If you're a real race fan, whats not to like about tight races contested by half-a-dozen different brands?
G |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 01:15 pm: |
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Sportfit, if it were a "stock motor to stock motor" class, the 1125 would be a closer match for the 1000 inline fours... though I think from a physics standpoint, that would give the 1000 inline fours a significant advantage.
There are a couple factors in this... and straightforward physics to support it.
The stroke is an important factor as well. Long stroke bikes get better cylinder fill and better fuel economy and better low RPM horsepower. But the long stroke limits there potential peak RPM (due to the limits of the molecular strength of oil to maintain a film). So a good street bike is one with a longer stroke... better fuel economy, less fussy to tune, good power at low RPM's (which is where a streetbike is running 99.99% of the time).
"Power" is "torque * RPM", so more RPM's is a HUGE advantage in terms of "peak power" On a race bike, where you don't care if you wake the neighbors are draw attention from cops, the bike runs at high RPM 99% of the time. So a design with a short stroke makes more peak power, but the thing runs badly an most lower RPM's.
The japanese inline four makers are putting out "race bikes" for the street, with really short strokes. Good for peak power, annoying for street use.
So making the class structure too focused on "racing applications" just drives manufacturers to make lousy street bikes.
Want an eye opener? Put the dyno plot for my "little" XB9 over that for a superbike... a yamaha R1. All the way up to 7800 RPM, when I hit redline, guess which bike is making more power? It's close, but the little Buell is actually doing better. Of course, when I hit redline, he has a lot more room to keep adding RPM's and making more power. I've owned an inline four though, and riding around at 7000 RPM annoyed me to no end.
So the R1 motor isn't really more powerful then an air cooled XB9 motor, it just has more rev's.
So if you want a CC limited class, that's fine, but make it an RPM limited class as well. An artificial constraint on CC's is just as valid as an artificial constraint on RPM's. |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 01:31 pm: |
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Careful there Reep, the masses often find logic more baffling than BS.
Good post.
G |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 03:24 pm: |
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Here's to you Reep.
"So making the class structure too focused on "racing applications" just drives manufacturers to make lousy street bikes. "
~jammer |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 03:42 pm: |
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The majority of runners were on Japanese 600s BUT...
There were Several 1125R Buells, a few 1000 Aprilias, a couple of 675 Triumphs. BMW was allowed to field a 1200, but didn't.
It's all about power to weight, in Sportbike, the Buells were running "crate" motors, bone stock except ECM, race-pipe and map.
Essentially, Danny won on a bike almost identical to my Loretta or any of your 1125Rs.
If any 1125s make it to Superbike, they will be tweaked, like the 600s were in Sportbike.
I'm good with it as is, but I'm not a "purist".
I like to watch a good, close race.
Z |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 04:50 pm: |
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It should also be pointed out that the big difference in "actual vs allowed" mass of the bikes puts the big Buell at a disadvantage in the tight multi turns and yet the Buell has the best average times there. It's only after the 600s burn down most of their fuel that they do as well there. Say what you want about all of Buell's media hype but Erik's Trilogy of Tech is just good physics. |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 05:02 pm: |
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Everyone seems to forget that Shawn was in Stupor bikes that day. With a bike very similar to his Daytona Buell. He moved up something like six spots, finished the race and didn't get lapped. On a shoestring budget. That says a lot for Shawn, Buell and also the abilities of the 600s in Daytona when you think about it. |
Sportfit
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 07:11 pm: |
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reepi, and all the rest --
i thought my iPhone post would've posted, but apparently it didn't. i responded earlier today to say "thanks" for the insights re: classifications / physic / etc. |
Johnnylunchbox
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 08:12 pm: |
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Can I have permission to cut and paste Reepicheeps excellent diatribe to every single squid forum that's whining about engine displacement? |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 09:50 pm: |
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Sportfit,
The Japanese bikes with their blueprinted motors with lots of little but expensive tricks are making over 130 RWHP. Danny's bike makes about 139 at the rear wheel, according to the guys, and is a stock unopened motor.
Further proof of that happened today when Latus bike with Taylor Knapp on board finished fourth. I know those guys and the motor was straight off the showroom floor.
The 1125's are also heavier than the 600's as they weigh about 390 lbs. They are allowed to be lighter, but since the bike is competitive this way, no one wants to spend the money. Remember, these are privateers!
Suzuki said they would be willing to sell their Superbike winning race bike today(that somehow was much slower than it was yesterday) for $59,000. I'll bet Latus would jump at selling Knapp's bike for $19,000, heck, they'd make money! |
Hellgate
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:08 pm: |
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"So the R1 motor isn't really more powerful then an air cooled XB9 motor, it just has more rev's."
No that isn't true. Peak hp to peak hp the R1 is significantly more powerful. The whole point of a high rpm motor is to pump and burn more oxygen over a given period of time.
The XB motor may redline at 7,800 rpm, but if the R1 redlines at 14,000 or whatever it is, it is pumping about 70% more per minute, hence the higher peak rpm.
Regardless I'm just glad Eslick won, again. : ) |
Bigschwerm
| | Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:57 pm: |
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Regardless I'm just glad Eslick won, again. : )
x2
How about Higbee getting a top 10 Finish is superbike also!
(Message edited by bigschwerm on April 05, 2009) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 12:49 am: |
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Higbee in 10th is a misprint. It was Pegram. Stuporbike Plan-it will no doubt use this as another opportunity to toot their own horn in some weird way when they print the correction.
AMA Official results for Superbike:
http://amaproracing.com/rr/events/results.cfm?eid= 2009010915
I bet that Higbee would be glad to know he could come in 10th place in Road Atlanta while in San Diego! Bet even Mladin would have a hard time doing THAT!
(Message edited by slaughter on April 06, 2009) |
Nickdagger
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 01:08 am: |
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Excellent interview with Danny Eslick on Speedtv.com
It includes a lot of race footage and his thoughts on riding the 1125R. |
Duggram
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 02:37 am: |
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Steve, obviously the results have been corrected. But have you been into the wine? |
Adoogie3
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 07:55 am: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb5MWcMbJiw |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 01:45 pm: |
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Feel free to repost it, but fix my typos first, and don't do it with any attribution... I don't enjoy arguing about it. Besides, lots of it was stolen from Kevin Cameron and Aaron Wilson. 
And correct, the R1 absolutely makes more peak power. I was playing with semantics to make an important point about power versus RPM. I was trying to drive home is that the reason the R1 motor makes so much more power is simply that it revs that much faster. And it can rev that much faster because it has 4 little short stroke pistons, rather then two bigger long stroke pistons.
So spare us the whining about the "Twins unfair displacement advantage" unless you are also calling for ending the "Inline Four's unfair RPM advantage." |
Sleez
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 07:34 pm: |
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if the twins have such a drastic unfair advantage, they would be finishing 1,2,3,4,5,...etc. they are not, so the whining is of no consequence!
it is fully ignored!!! good day!!! |
Kenney83
| | Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:13 pm: |
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if the twins have such a drastic unfair advantage, they would be finishing 1,2,3,4,5,...etc. they are not, so the whining is of no consequence!
This is what i have been telling my honda and suzuki friends. i just want to see more wins and top finishes |
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