| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
So 1000cc's vs. 600's is "fair" but 1125cc's isn't? Where is the crossover point? 1050cc's? 1075cc's? 1100cc's? Why is 848cc's "fair"? Why is 675cc's "fair"? Conversely, I couldn't give a crap about seeing an all 600cc IL4 race series. I am tuning into THIS race series for the first time. I don't follow racing that much. I am VERY interested now. Is that bad for the sport or good for the sport? We KNOW that Japan Incorporated make great bikes. We don't know that there are other manufacturers who make great bikes. What if we saw a Fisher entry or two with a V-Twin? They will sort the rules out. If the rules prove to be unfair, they will change them. I don't believe they are out of line. | ||
| M2nc |
I would like to see DMG give more allowence for Aprilia, BMW, Ducati and Triumph. I want to see more makes in the race. I saw an interview with the Aprilia camp and they stated that the bike is new and they are still learning it. I would not object to DMG allowing them to change parts for weight savings. I believe that would put them in the hunt. Diablo1 unlike the Aprilia board, there is no hate for other, especially domestic, makes here. What happened to the BMW teams from the Sun Trust Moto ST series. I had hoped they would be their too. By the way if anyone reads the rules the Beemer has the largest engine displacement allowed. I think DMG should raise the weight limit of the Buell to match any 1000+ V-twin. I think they should lower the weight limit of the Triumph to match the 600s. I would like to see an allowance for the GSX-R750 with a weight penalty of course. All to even up the racing and get this "SPORT BIKE" class a chance to break away from the Super Sport stigma. According to AMA timing and scoring, Eslick turned in the third fastest lap times and he was fastest from turn 1 thru 9. That is the tightest section of the course. Why would the bike that handles worse and has more power be fastest their? While we are scratching our heads, why are Aprilia fans complaining about Buell weight limits and special parts that are not in use and have not been met? It is all theoretical dribble since this 397# bike won over much lighter 600 that were faster in the straights. I think the Buell's true power advantage looking at the data is its torque, or width of horsepower band, no its peak horsepower. The Buell is able to charge out of the corners harder. That matches the data provided. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Gixxer 750 would be fed perfect parts from the factory. Combine that with a huge budget and the 2 cylinder teams couldn't compete. I think you are right in your assessment of the torque advantage of the Buell. Peak HP btw the 600s and the Buell is probably relatively close, but the torque lets the Buell jump off the corners. I also agree that the Buells weight allowance to 365 pounds should be rescinded. The Buell won't get to 365 without huge money (if it's even possible.) It will give the masses less to whine about--even if it's really means nothing in reality. | ||
| Blake |
Give Ed Key a crack at the 1125R and it'll get to the 365 LB limit. | ||
| Diablo1 |
It is all theoretical dribble since this 397# bike won over much lighter 600 that were faster in the straights. I think the Buell's true power advantage looking at the data is its torque, or width of horsepower band, no its peak horsepower. The Buell is able to charge out of the corners harder. That matches the data provided. Did you watch the same race I did ....Fontana? Eslick's bike just out-motored the competition on the straights. Whether it's torque from the displacement advantage or horsepower from the displacement advantage doesn't really matter. Same difference. The only way to change the rules to give the appearance of fairness is that ALL twins get the same max displacement and the same min weight. But then, you'd have to allow piston swaps to get close to the displacement limit. But, do the Buell fans really want to race against the Ducati 1098? } | ||
| Madav8tr |
"Did you watch the same race I did ....Fontana?" Same race where the 600's pulled better lap times AND had higher trap speeds? Yep, Fontana, watched it, enjoyed it thoroughly. As for racing the 1098, you DO realize that the 1098 is actually 1200cc's don't you? | ||
| Ponti1 |
I don't know why everyone keeps throwing out the 1098 like it's some huge threat to let them into the Sportbike class. I'd bet that the tuned 848 is a much better fit/competitor for this class than to detune a 1098 far enough to fall within restrictions. | ||
| Diablo1 |
As for racing the 1098, you DO realize that the 1098 is actually 1200cc's don't you? No, only the 1098-R is 1200cc. Ducati produced the 1098, 1098-S too in much higher production numbers than the R model. And their displacement is 1099cc. Before you tell me they aren't current 2009 models, I'll just say yeah, so what? DMG with a stroke of the pen could allow non-current bikes to race in Sportbike.} | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
DMG with a stroke of the pen could allow non-current bikes to race in Sportbike Now who's getting special allowances? If the 1125 isn't fair with a stock crank output of 146HP, why would a 1098 with 170HP be MORE fair? That stroke of a pen would have to raise the maximum HP output above 140HP. If the 1098 is added, ALL the 600's will drop out and it will be a twins and triples. This isn't what anyone wants including DMG. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Now who's getting special allowances? Not Ducati, think 1125cc. If the 1125 isn't fair with a stock crank output of 146HP, why would a 1098 with 170HP be MORE fair? Stock 1098 has about the same power as the Buell 1125. And no, it wouldn't be any more fair than allowing the Buell to race against the 600s. However, it would be fair competition for the Buell. That stroke of a pen would have to raise the maximum HP output above 140HP. There is NO HP limit in the rules currently. There is no dyno testing of bikes by DMG for Sportbike. If the 1098 is added, ALL the 600's will drop out and it will be a twins and triples. Maybe, maybe not. The racing may be dominated by the 1098 and the 1125.} | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Not Ducati, think 1125cc. But you want DMG to allow in a bike that is not even in current production. How is THAT not a special allowance. Stock 1098 has about the same power as the Buell 1125. And no, it wouldn't be any more fair than allowing the Buell to race against the 600s. However, it would be fair competition for the Buell. The stock 1098 produced 160HP out of the box. The CURRENT PRODUCTION model produces 170HP. So a race series where Buell has only won 2 races so far needs to be completely broken open to push out every other bike manufacturer and make this a two bike race, Buell and Ducati? There is NO HP limit in the rules currently. There is no dyno testing of bikes by DMG for Sportbike. There ARE post race dyno runs and HP limitations per the folks witnessing the post race dyno runs. Maybe, maybe not. The racing may be dominated by the 1098 and the 1125 Pretty sure that that much of a HP difference (125HP stock for the Suzuki vs. 170HP stock for the Ducati) would be difficult to surpass even with heavy weight requirements. Not to mention the current Ducati model you would need to enter comes with traction control. | ||
| Diablo1 |
There ARE post race dyno runs and HP limitations per the folks witnessing the post race dyno runs. What are you talking about? Can I get a witness? It's not in the rule book. Anyone here on this forum observed any DMG post-race dyno testing? Are these tests secret with results not to be divulged to the public?} The stock 1098 produced 160HP out of the box. The CURRENT PRODUCTION model produces 170HP. Aside from manufacturers' elevated claims, real dyno tests show parity. AF1 shows dyno tests on youtube for the Buell 1125 with a Drummer exhaust - 123 RWHP. Ducati 1098S stock is 123 RWHP on the same dyno. Ducati with slipon exhaust is 125 RWHP on same dyno. (Message edited by Diablo1 on March 29, 2009) | ||
| M2nc |
In the Amatuer race at Daytona this year, a C3'er beat two 1098s on his 1125R. Higbee was racing the top finishing 1098 in the Superbike race. They traded positions a couple of times. But I have never heard one complaint from Ducati or their fans about jumping down a series to compete with the Buell or the 600s. I hear plenty from the pontiffs of the Aprilia and 600s though. Its like grabbing at straws all these attempts to prove what real data has failed to prove to date. Did you see the Superbike race? That is a technical advantage, 7 out 10 in the the top ten were Suzukis. Mladin and his team mate were all alone racing each other. All this and the only bikes with a displacement advantage their were battling for 17th & 18th place. But it is clear that the Suzuki has the set up, and their boy Mladin will win every race, unless Hayden improves and learns to slam the door. That is a technical advantage without a displacement advantage. The same can be said about the 600 bikes. How can something with a twenty horspower disadvantage on the street out power two different makes down the straights? Anyone knowing anything about drag racing, a good start is everything. At the start of the race Slicks pulling away from the field can be nothing more than a good start, or a jumped start. Anyone who knows anything about drag racing knows its won on the starting line. Since Slick was not the fastest on the straight, but third fastest, the assumption that the Buell out powered its competition is false. Again Slick had a clear track and did not have to worry about protecting the inside. This allowed him to use the whole track, where those chasing him could not. That again fits the known facts. Like I said before, when Buells dominate with all finishing Buell in the top ten and top two or three positions always Buells, then and only then will I buy off that Buells have some advantage. Of course, when that does happen all they would have done is matched the dominance I already see in Superbike by Suzuki. | ||
| Blake |
Jeremy is likely mistaking MotoGT for Pro Daytona SportBike. I don't believe there are any dyno tests post race or otherwise being conducted by the the sanctioning body for Pro Daytona SportBike. That said, your incessant nattering against the 1125R in Daytona SportBike has grown beyond tiresome. Your arguments drift around like turds floating in your bathtub. First the Buell is too fast (but there's never been more than one in the top ten in any race so far and the 600's were drafting passing 1125Rs at Daytona at will), then it's not fare to not include the Ducati 1098 (depite it being out of production and having and advertised 160 HP). Your welcome here is wearing thin. If you don't want to see the privateer 1125R beating the Japan Inc Factory IL4 600cc screamers, then don't watch the races. But most of all, don't come here whining endlessly about it. It's annoying to those of us who would like to enjoy the victory celebration; that'd be enough to endure, but the way you toss out blatant falsehoods aiming to belittle the privateer Buell 1125R racing efforts is beyond the pale for any Buell enthusiast. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Now we are getting somewhere... You think the journalists might be interested in making this months rent as well? Think those journalists may have a vested interest in existing relationships and insider connections with the big three Japanese manufacturers? Think a little controversy, especially when you are whipping on the team threatening the status quo, might sell a couple magazines? Anyone who thinks "just displacement" is a good way to tier racing is either a complete idiot in terms of mechanical engineering, has a vested interest and wants a really narrow criteria that matches their niche, or wants the race to be all about particular racers with particular styles (like IROC). | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Aside from manufacturers' elevated claims, real dyno tests show parity. AF1 shows dyno tests on youtube for the Buell 1125 with a Drummer exhaust - 123 RWHP. Ducati 1098S stock is 123 RWHP on the same dyno. Ducati with slipon exhaust is 125 RWHP on same dyno But in the same breath, you will claim the manufacturer's HP output as gospel in order to defend your position at the unfairness of the 1125 being with the 600's. Which is it? Ducati should rethink their drive train configuration if they are losing 37-47HP from crank to wheel. | ||
| Xb984r |
" If you don't want to see the privateer 1125R beating the Japan Inc Factory IL4 600cc" "PRIVATEER", yeah right. | ||
| 46champ |
The 1125R is fulfilling its mission in DMG's eyes it has brought publicity to the budget racing class. Do you all remember the year the XBRR came out people talked and wrote more about Formula Extreme than the Superbike class. Always remember there is no such thing as }BAD PUBLICITY All this harping about Ducati is moot they don't seem to be interested in having a dog in this hunt. | ||
| Diablo1 |
But in the same breath, you will claim the manufacturer's HP output as gospel in order to defend your position at the unfairness of the 1125 being with the 600's. Which is it? I never claimed the manufacturers' output as gospel. If you really want to know the HP differences with data, read this link. This is using the same brand of dyno that AF1 uses...again around 123 RWHP for the Buell 1125. A good race 600 is only around 105 RWHP....check out the data and see for yourself. http://www.zvmax.com/TrueHorsepower.htm } | ||
| Brapbrapbrap |
All this harping about Ducati is moot they don't seem to be interested in having a dog in this hunt. Some do look at it as sitting at the little kid table on thanksgiving. I know I know the rules allow it, I'm just saying how Some people see it, not me. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Funny, we just dynoed a new R-6 Yammie for an AFM racer and it was not a full on race motor--dynoed at 128 RWHP. | ||
| Anonymous |
Diablo1, I am sorry, but you are really not aware of the facts in the class we are taking about. A good racing 600 there puts out between 125 and 130 RWHP. Those are the real facts, off real dynos from the actual motorcycles, Hondas, Yamahas and Suzukis. The only numbers we haven't seen are the 636 Kawasaki, but it looks to have a bit more than the 600's. I am sure the folks at zvmax dynoes a 600 that put out 105, but it was a weak one, not comparable to the bikes running in Daytona SportBike. The FX 600's hit 145 RWHP. These are real numbers from the real people who built them for AMA Pro Racing. On exactly the same dynoes, Eslick's bike put out a little under 140RWHP. When you compare that with weights for the Japanese at 365 and the Buell which actually weighed 389, it gets real close, and when you add in the effects of extra engine inertia (helps off turns, slows engine's ability to gain revs), you'll see what the spilt times show, very close competition. The Buell is faster in the corners and just exiting them, the Japanese are faster by mid straight and in top speed. The 848 isn't running because it would get smoked, and the 1198 isn't allowed. I guess if a little kids table is where the best competition is, I'd rather sit there that with the boring adults. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Funny, we just dynoed a new R-6 Yammie for an AFM racer and it was not a full on race motor--dynoed at 128 RWHP. You are probably using an acceleration inertia dyno. These read high HP relatively to the dyno data presented on that link. Dynojet HP reads typically about 15% higher than the "steady state" dyno in tht link. Your 128 BHP (R6) is equivalent to 109 HP on the Factory Pro dyno. To convert the Buell 1125 from 123HP (steady state dyno) to Dynojet HP, multiply by 1.15 and get tada...141 HP. You can read the explanation on the link to understand more on why inertia HP is not "as good" a method. Basically, if you reduce the weight of the rear wheel, a Dynojet shows a HP increase because the engine can accelerate the dyno drum quicker. This is without actually increasing the HP of the engine. The only thing that really changed is lower wheel inertia, which has zero effect on power output. The point of that link was simply to show real dyno data from an independant dyno operator. That's Factory-Pro's dyno shop for reference. And there's lots of dyno data there}. It's true I don't see any data from the current 600s in DMG race spec. But, there's data there from past 600s in what I believe are higher race spec than DMG allows for Sportbike. And if I did the math right, Anonymous just confirmed my earlier WAG post that Buell has a 15HP advantage over the race 600s...all in DMG race trim. (Message edited by Diablo1 on March 29, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
And if I did the math right Skewed as usual. I'll skew it back the other way. You can put the HP advantage of the Buell at less than 10HP, looking at the same anony post. | ||
| Boltrider |
But, do the Buell fans really want to race against the Ducati 1098? Sure, why not? But I'm sure Aprilia fans would have a problem with it. | ||
| Boltrider |
Hey Diablo1, Firemanjim knows a thing or 2 about dynos. Save the lecture for the Aprilia board. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Hey Diablo1, Firemanjim knows a thing or 2 about dynos. Save the lecture for the Aprilia board. Shhhhhhh. Let the noob yap. Later he can get us a beer. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Hey Diablo1, Firemanjim knows a thing or 2 about dynos. Save the lecture for the Aprilia board. Yeah, you're right, they can read and understand English. I did notice that Firemanjim didn't correct my post, so he didn't have a problem with it.....just Larry and Curly.} | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'll let Firemanjim correct your post. Out of respect. For him, not you. | ||
| Jjk |
Diablo1 - you are obviously so much smarter than the rest of us. Now that you have illuminated us with all of your wisdom, please remember that very few of us Buell owners can read or write so go easy on us. In fact, some of us have a great deal of trouble simply tying our shoes. I am sure that your opinions are 100% correct, 100% of the time. I am just too simple to understand your missives. Please forgive me. Maybe you could maybe use drawings (crayons are nice) to help us understand. |
