| Author | Message | |||
     Ds_tiger |
What I find interesting about this one is Kevin's comments about Chaz Davies and the Aprilia, that it is a "work in progress" Jeez, the Aprilia platform he is racing has been raced globally, EuroCup, Bol D OR, Suzuka and numerous series. ?? And it is fundamentally based on the 01-04 WSB race chassis- Haga, Corser et al /???? How is this a work in progress? I find that patronizing at best. And not to pooh on the parade, but in all fairness Barney's late finishes are due to his unhealed wrist... ENJOY! http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=35954 | |||
| Ft_bstrd |
Odd that and "1150cc" bike is "weird", but the Aprilia is ok? | |||
| Ds_tiger |
Thats IT! Lets GET'em!!!  | |||
| Diablo1 |
No, it's fundamentally based on the current street bike, prepared by a team with little experience working to race-prep Aprilia (lots of Suzuki experience though), and ridden by a rider with little seat-time on the Aprilia. The bikes that Haga/Corser raced were based on the SP model with the Cosworth motor, and the first generation chassis. For DMG, they use the 2nd generation chassis (2004 and newer) and the 2nd generation Rotax motor. So, the team is on a learning curve. | |||
| Ds_tiger |
If you think the the dyno operator that dyno'd my bike with a Drummer pipe was partial to Buell- think again. Here is a lively discussion on AF1 racing forum- for thos ike me that have that kind of time on their hands http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=174366 | |||
| Ponti1 |
LOL...I just read 3 pages of drivel from the Aprilia forum. Those folks are really trying hard to be pissed! Most of their argument is "show me xxxxxx". Why do none of them look up the facts for themselves? Because they are afraid that if "unfair advantage" isn't a valid claim they will have nothing else to grasp at. | |||
| Ft_bstrd |
What a bunch of sandy vag's. Will someone explain to them that having a chain drive vs. a belt also allows an unfair advantage to the other bikes in tuning the gearing for the track? Why is a 1000cc Aprilia not "unfair"? Shouldn't Aprilia be running a 600cc twin? What about their "special rules"? Why is 675cc's fair? Why is 848cc's fair? It doesn't matter what the minimum weights are, none of the Buells can hit it. It's like expecting that a linebacker can drop weight to 110lbs just because the rules say he can. Everyone who bitches about the unfairness of the series continually quotes STOCK HP and Torque specs. NONE of these bikes are running stock specs. NONE. The IL4's are tuned way stronger than the Buells or any other bikes in the series are. There is a cap on HP. It's 140hp at the wheel. If Buells are tuned to the hilt, they STILL can't exceed that ceiling. I want to see the post race dyno runs on the bikes. I doubt that we will, but I want to see them. | |||
| Geforce |
Wow, there is a LOT of hatred for Buell there. Maybe not the company, but our bike is talked about like a red headed step, bastard step child. I read all six pages and I still I don't agree that we are being given an "unfair" advantage. Not ONCE did they mention the trinity of technology differences. ZTL, Fuel in Frame, Weight/Mass Centralization. They seemed to be more concerned with chain drive and swing arm allowances, and mag wheels. I have also got the same vibes from my buddies who ride IL4 bikes. They always banish Buell as the black sheep wannabe and don't do any research or take the time to see how the bikes are really made. Just tonight I sat a good friend down and showed him the Buell website and actually explained some of the design concepts and he was blown away with the idea that an AMERICAN motorcycle company had this sort of innovations. Oh well, I didn't by the 1125r to be liked by the masses. The simple fact is that we may always be the black sheep, and will always ride an "unpopular" motorcycle. But I like that, and everyday that I swing a leg over that wild horse and ride off, I do so with a huge smile on my face. Thanks Erik! Oh and... Go Buell Go! | |||
| Diablo1 |
It doesn't matter what the minimum weights are, none of the Buells can hit it. It's like expecting that a linebacker can drop weight to 110lbs just because the rules say he can. OK, then why does Buell get a 365 lb min weight? And why is Buell allowed to use lighter non-stock magnesium wheels? Other twins have 385 lb min weight and have to use stock aluminum wheels. It's not Buell's fault that DMG put the fix in to help Buell, but don't deny the fix is in. After-race dyno tests would be a good thing. The IL4's are tuned way stronger than the Buells or any other bikes in the series are. There is a cap on HP. It's 140hp at the wheel. If Buells are tuned to the hilt, they STILL can't exceed that ceiling. There is no 140HP cap - that proposed rule was dropped a while ago. The rules also limit the amount of engine work to nearly nothing. So, I call this claim of the "highly tuned 600s" as bunk. My WAG is that the Buell has 15-20 RWHP advantage on the 600s in racing form for the DMG.} (Message edited by Diablo1 on March 28, 2009) | |||
| Court |
>>>My WAG Precisely and it's good that we make it clear that this is a typical internet discussion of personal opinions based entirely on WAG as NONE of us has any facts, weren't privy to the "whys and why nots" and are pretty much relegated to Monday morning quarterbacking, each of us attempting to take evens and line them up in such a manner as to advance our own opinions. Cool . . . . | |||
| Ft_bstrd |
OK, then why does Buell get a 365 lb min weight? And why is Buell allowed to use lighter non-stock magnesium wheels? Other twins have 385 lb min weight and have to use stock aluminum wheels. It's not Buell's fault that DMG put the fix in to help Buell, but don't deny the fix is in. After-race dyno tests would be a good thing. How much weight does a heavy chain and sprockets add to the bike? How much weight does the modified swing arm add to the bike? How much weight does the belly pan and lowers add? What is the weight difference between the aluminum and magnesium wheels? I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that it's less than got added over the stock dress. So far in the main races we've seen, Buell finished WELL above the minimum weight for the twins not at it or below it and no where NEAR the weight of the 600s. Again, if Buells were racing at the SAME weight as the 600s AND taking a 15-20HP advantage, we should see a 1-5 finished regardless of what monkey we put on top. There is no 140HP cap - that proposed rule was dropped a while ago. The rules also limit the amount of engine work to nearly nothing. So, I call this claim of the "highly tuned 600s" as bunk. My WAG is that the Buell has 15-20 RWHP advantage on the 600s in racing form for the DMG They can deck the heads to increase compression as well as some other "minor mods" including ECM and exhaust tuning. An IL4 (and any of the ones running at the front of the pack), can be tuned to pick up 15-20HP easy. If there is no 140HP maximum, why dyno the bikes after the race? What would it matter what they were putting out? | |||
| Blake |
Given that even the former 600cc supersport machines (no head decking allowed) were putting down 130+ RWHP and hitting upwards of 170 MPH a few years ago, it sure isn't a stretch to assume that todays 600cc Daytona Sport Bike spec machines (head decking allowed) are putting down 140RWHP. Being able to increase compression ratio and optimize cam timing accordingly is significant for a racing engine versus a street engine. Bottom line: The trap speeds at Daytona and the multiple draft passes performed with relative ease past Danny's 1125R are further proof that the power among the competing machines is perfectly on par. But these are facts, not just WAGs. | |||
| Court |
>>>But these are facts, not just WAGs. Don't confuse this discussion . . . . . | |||
| Madav8tr |
People need to stop thinking of the class in terms of displacement. Al Ludington said it best, "it isn't a 600cc class, it's a sportbike class now". In terms of overall performance, the Buell, the Aprilia and the 848 are all pretty close with the 600's. The Buell may have a bit of a HP advantage but it doesn't turn as easily nor does it possess the braking efficiency that the lighter 600's have(or the Ape and Duc). It's a trade-off at best and I think that the fact the 600's ran the fastest over all lap bolster that assumption. Besides, all of the manufacturers got together and agreed to the rules as they are now and they did so for a reason. Buell was a joke, all 1125cc's, until Eslick put it on the box. Apparently, it isn't funny anymore. | |||
| Paint_shaker |
A Buell doesn't turn as easy or have the braking efficiency of a 600?? Got any facts/ tests/ comparisons to back that up? As for the mag wheels, I BELIEVE (WAG) they are allowed because they are available to Joe Rider from Buell. What it comes down to at the end of each race so far is the bikes appear to evenly matched. Which is exactly what the AMA/DMG wanted. I can't wait for them to get to the "real" road course tracks. Historically, Buells (airheads) have handled the corners exceptionally well, but couldn't quite keep up in the straights. Now the Buell has the engine package to compliment the handling package. | |||
| Diablo1 |
As for the mag wheels, I BELIEVE (WAG) they are allowed because they are available to Joe Rider from Buell. Mag wheels are available from Aprilia too....but not allowed by DMG. They were a production part on the Nera. And that's a fact. So, no one has come up with a reasonable explanation why Buell is allowed the mag wheels and Aprilia is not. That's a fact too. Eslick has never been as fast or finished as well in other race series compared with the guys he is currently racing against. Did his riding skill suddenly improve, or do you think DMG rules have something to do with his "latest unusual result"? He has raced on 600s before, and never beat the same guys before. These are more pesky facts.} | |||
| Goldrush |
Has anyone compared the difference in HP from a belt drive to a chain conversion. We have and there is a loss going to the chain of about 3-4% on the dyno. | |||
| Fresnobuell |
Did his riding skill suddenly improve He's 22 years old coming from a flat track background. It is VERY possible that yes his road racing skills are just coming into their own. The big torque of the Buell may also fit his back-it-in style. Another pesky fact-no one else is really competitive on the other Buells in the field. | |||
| Blake |
"Eslick has never been as fast or finished as well in other race series compared with the guys he is currently racing against. Did his riding skill suddenly improve, or do you think DMG rules have something to do with his "latest unusual result"? He has raced on 600s before, and never beat the same guys before. These are more pesky facts. As a privateer, Slick has been on the box and in the top five an amazing number of times. Your "pesky facts" are in fact blatant falsehoods. Combine that with the fact that Danny has yet to spend a season on a full factory ride and your miserable petty little critique of his capabilities is even more disgusting.
The above from http://www.roadracerx.com/archive/conversation_010 306_DannyEslick.html More actual facts from Danny's racing resumé:
| |||
| Court |
That's an ACCURATE statement. | |||
| Blake |
"So, no one has come up with a reasonable explanation why Buell is allowed the mag wheels and Aprilia is not. That's a fact too." The answer is elementary; Aprilia teams likely didn't ask. You don't request something, you don't get it. | |||
| Madav8tr |
"A Buell doesn't turn as easy or have the braking efficiency of a 600?? Got any facts/ tests/ comparisons to back that up?" All I have is my personal opinion after riding both my old R6 and my current 1125R at Barber Motorsports park. I am not the fastest guy on the planet either but I do race as an expert with WERA and have a pretty good basis to form my opinions. The Brakes on the Buell aren't as good as my R6(or several of my other past racebikes including the Ducati racebike I have now) but they get the job done. As for the handling, a modern 600 will outhandle just about anything this side of a 250GPbike. | |||
| Sparky |
I suspect that if they enforce post-race dyno runs to verify compliance under some prescribed limit, that might work to Buell's benefit. Rationale is that the airbox is ram-air pressurized with those rad pods forming a giant, yet aerodynamic, air scoop that, I think, are designed to create more horsepower at high speeds in clean air on the ground than in still air on a dyno. Does it make sense that the engine can be tuned to produce just at or under the prescribed dyno hp limit while making more hp while racing and yet be legal? Hey, if I'm giving away speed secrets, delete this post.  | |||
| Usmoto |
This may sound kinda harsh but it's just an opinion and not intended to offend anyone. I'm fairly certain that if Aprilia was winning, they wouldn't be bitching. They agreed to the rules just like all the other teams. They should've been bitchin' before the first race. If they can't handle it they should pack their bags. USA Baby!! | |||
| Diablo1 |
I'm fairly certain that if Aprilia was winning, they wouldn't be bitching. They agreed to the rules just like all the other teams. They should've been bitchin' before the first race. Where have you been? The motorcycle press has been complaining about the DMG rules as soon as they were proposed. What choice do the racers and other manufacturers have?....it's a monopoly. DMG has been my way, or the highway from the beginning. Love the pace-cars.....  } | |||
| Madav8tr |
"Where have you been? The motorcycle press has been complaining about the DMG rules as soon as they were proposed. " When the motorcycle press starts ACTUALLY racing the motorcycles then their opposition to DMG may become relevent, until then, they are just whining for the sake of readership. Roadracing world is one of the only race oriented publications I read and they seem to be comfortable with the rules package as they are written now. They have placed a rider on the podium a couple times with the M4 team and there is no whining on their part. I guess the whole reading the rule book thing and then entering a motorcycle they think will be competitive isn't above those guys. | |||
| Diablo1 |
When the motorcycle press starts ACTUALLY racing the motorcycles then their opposition to DMG may become relevent, until then, they are just whining for the sake of readership. Writers write. Racers race. I don't expect to read any editorials penned by the throttle jockeys. Could the writers really be more concerned with the future of racing in the US than a racer who is }worried about making this month's rent? I think so. | |||
| Usmoto |
The press is always going to point out the negative to sell a story. If it was such a big deal to the teams and manus I'm thinkin' they wouldn't bother to race. Someone is always going to complain, it's just the nature of things. | |||
| Madav8tr |
"I don't expect to read any editorials penned by the throttle jockeys" If you read Roadracingworld, that's exactly what you get. As for the rest, writers are more concerned with selling stories. Period. I am curious though, do you own a 1125 and/or do you race? | |||
| Madav8tr |
"Could the writers really be more concerned with the future of racing in the US than a racer who is }worried about making this month's rent? I think so." BTW, This is one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever seen. Can you possibly think that a motojournalist cares more about the sport of roadracing that the person that relies on it for a living? Really? How about the teams and team owners themselves? Do the journalist care more than those guys? |
