| Author | Message | ||
     Sd26 |
The original post mentioned the proof of the unfair advantage that is being circulated on other forums. I would like to know which forums. I checked a few sport bike and manufacturer forums and didn't see any discussion on AMA racing. That is the real problem, no one really cares about the AMA. DMG control can not make the popularity of motorcycle road racing in America any worse. CCS board has been the source of some whining. Kind of irrelevant since CCS rules aren't AMA Pro rules. I'm sure there's something on the WERA board, but it would be longer and more involved, so I haven't gotten into that one. | ||
| Doerman |
The viewpoint is nicely done, Matt and understandable from the EU point of view. You are looking to the next horizon for US national level racing. This is business and the US base for this business is a bit more than a niche. It is a large market if it can be invigorated. Something I believe DMG is very capable of accomplishing. I think the current classes are smart moves: Supersport: A class limited to stock 600s and kids ages 16-21. This is the development league Daytona Superbike: Hopped up 600s and throw in some twins and stuff. Similar to the previous FX series. This is the street "brawl league" where we can cheer for personalities and the underdogs. Privateers can actually make it on the podium. Americans love that! Superbike: This bad boy is for factories to bring out the trickery. Eek out the last drop of power. Don't come here unless you are serious with your equipment and bucks to make it run. MotoGT Isle of Man is the main event for endurance racing and hugely popular. I think DMG saw the potential for growing it into popularity here as well. There's nothing like seeing a bike pit and see the crew screw it up or do it perfectly. Then there's the mixed racing. Alway somebody passing somebody and the drama of whether riders and machine can make it across the finish line. Great TV. It remains to be seen, but I think the "Development league" and "Street Brawl League" has a better chance in the American market to draw new fans. Endurance is icing on the cake. Americans are emotional and these two furnish that emotions for different reasons (kids excelling and underdogs on the podium). I really think DMG has provided us with a real platform for significant growth in the American roadracing scene. We're a big enough market that alignment to equivalent racing formats in the rest of the world is a second priority and provided through Superbike anyway. We're all prognosticating and guessing. But it is fun anyway. Personally, I think the two most exciting series around right now is Daytona Sportbike and WSB. | ||
| Elvis |
if the 1125 is to be seen as a credible alternative to the KTM RC8 Is the RC8 winning Superbike races? If so, it must be in a series that doesn't get much publicity around here. | ||
| Sd26 |
The current AMA rules are set to move US racing further away from the direction that teams, factories and sponsors worldwide want to go, and will certainly put the organisers and the major manufacturers at loggerheads again before very long (at risk of tearing the sport apart for good). Matt, I might pull you out of context, not to mention that it might be getting late in your area... The previous direction of AMA Superbike has been along the line of WSB in many ways, but it never produced more teams that could even get any opportunities. Even with Michael Jordan willing to purchase forks and/or complete bikes from Yoshimura and Showa, it was not allowed to happen. So, nothing ever happened. The results show that as being "predetermined". Addtionally, the race tracks here have struggled with real safety issues. We don't have MotoGP tracks, and they just can't change them to work all the time. There are a finite number of tracks that can host such an event, and getting changes done at those tracks are an honest struggle. This doesn't mean that all European tracks are safe, but the open opportunities of FIM inspected tracks are certainly different from the AMA inspections that have no written standards because of the risk of litigation. There's no reason to necessarily follow a previous path either. At Daytona, there were, what, seven manufacturers in the premier class, Daytona Sportbike. I didn't notice any Triumph's in the listings at Fontucky, and Nate Kern has yet to come out with the BMW this year. Maybe at New Jersey? The KTM is missing it sounds like because of their cut backs that resulted in the US loosing the Rookies' Cup series here. Certainly things are a bit more promising with more manufacturers involved vs the four to maybe five that have been in the series before. Is that wrong? DMG being involved in lots of racing programs certainly isn't so shy to leave the rules alone if they are actually proven to be biased. I see no reason to say that the Buell is somehow like Mat Mladin racing his American Superbike in the Daytona Sportbike class. Obviously, with a lap time of about four seconds faster than Danny's, that is kind of telling. Would just the simple edition of a GSXR750 in the mix result in a GSXR750 winning all the time? I don't see it. And it was proposed last year, but I believe that Suzuki elected not to homologize it for the series. | ||
| Dentguy |
Supersport: A class limited to stock 600s and kids ages 16-21. This is the development league All for the stock 600 and the development, but not the age. Instead I would like more of a Supercross lights format where you can point out of the class based on your finishes/seasons. That way you don't have any old pro's sandbagging in there, but your not booting somebody who just turned 22 that can't afford or isn't ready to move into another class. Plenty of people may start racing when over 21. | ||
| Sd26 |
I'm there in the morning's from 7am till 11-11:30am. The back entrance is open because I have delivery's. If your in the area and have time.... please stop by we can meet. Lunch is no problem. Understood! Thanks! | ||
| Davegess |
"'Bums on Seats' spectators are a tiny fraction of motorsports and motocycle racing income these days, with the major finance still coming from corporate sponsorship and global TV marketing. Whilst DMG may get more paying spectators (who may not seem to care what the rules are), it isn't going to survive long without the support of factories, importers or TV companie" Matt what you are saying is true for Europe but not here. You all may laugh at NASCAR but more americans watch it and are interested in it than ANY European motorsport. If AMA racing gets 1% of the NASCAR audience we will have a thriving series and bugger the WSB boys. When AMA ran to normal superbike rules and had big factory participation NO ONE IN THE USA CARED. You could fire a gun thorgh the crowd and not hit anyone. There were so few peopel attending AMA superbike events that many of the hospitality tents did not have security. You could walk into the pit lane at the Daytona 200 without a pass because security was so lax. Even with this laxity no one was doing it. Daytona is the biggest bike race in the USA and the biggest bike event in the USA. If 10% of the foks at bike week actually went to a race I would be surprised. If 20% even knew there was a race to go to I would be surprised. I would bet money that 80% of all American bikers have never seen a road race on TV or in person. Most would not even know what it was. DNG needs to connect to real poeple and to do that they need a series with real racing not parades with 3 or 4 fast bikes and 10 slow bikes. They need 10 guys who can win any race and grids of 40 bikes in order to succeed and they are moving in that direction. We do not really care if the rest of the world thinks we are backward. There are 250 million of us, we can support a bike racing series very nicely. Back in the day when guys like Roberts was coming up we didn't hve a "respectable" road racing series either. Kenny had to run dirt ovals to win our championship and it didn't seem to hurt him in Europe. The world model of racing will not work here just like the soccer thing does not work here. Football involves very large man hitting each other, not little guys trying to trip each other. Racing involves 10 bikes banging each other lap after lap with a new leader every lap and 4-5 passes each lap not two guys passing each other 4 of 5 times a race. BTW Buell is moving in the direction you want just a step at a time. If one is smart one does not start at the top and fail, on starts at the bottom and moves | ||
| Rex |
Well said Dave. I think it is exciting to see all of the various brands out there racing. Keep it coming! REX Of course I am leaning a little bit more over to the Buell side winning.  | ||
| M2nc |
By the way, this isn't me being 'down' on Buell. read just about any other forum or speak to any race 'insiders' and you'll see that Buell is doing themselves no favours whatsoever by racing or winning in this class. Actually if you read WERA's forum, some insiders running top 600s are actually defending Buells in the class. Comments like .099 seconds after 21 laps doesn't sound like much of an advantage. Eslick never turned the fastest lap times. When the series moves to a true road course the 600s will have the advantage due to weight. Some of these comments came from what appears to be either a crew member or owner of one podium finishing Suzuki. After reading two long threads from that forum I took away the realization that the more educated and experienced in motorcycle racing you are, the less animosity you feel toward Buells in DSBK. As for comments about Buell being taken seriously, It will take years of constant wins in all types of series for the big four ice to even start melting. No threat of Global Warming for Buell. If they would enter an a 1125R in WSBK's next race and win by a half a bike's length, the exact same complaints would rain down because they have a 125cc advantage. People believe what they want, but Buell is taking the right steps. A couple of years ago they were not competitive against the factory 600s. Now they are winning DSBK races. In a few years who knows where they will be. One step at a time for the smallest company in the series. As for AMA & NASCAR going their own way, that's just a given. Harley and NASCAR both are examples of doing it the American way. Harley is Big Red's only rival in the business. In racing, NASCAR has the richest television deals and sponsors. Neither would have gotten off the grown in Europe but both are bigger than anything in Europe in their respective markets. Now NASCAR is looking at Motorcycle racing. I do not know if this weird mix will work, but it can not hurt. American Road Racing, WRX, Motorcycle Road Racing is all at best club level. Americans do not want to see who spent the most to win or one car pass every thirty seconds and call it a race. It's not our way. Look at what we call football and what the rest of the world calls football for a reference. If its not action packed, neck and neck, fender rubbing exciting, its not worth watching. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
After reading two long threads from that forum I took away the realization that the more educated and experienced in motorcycle racing you are, the less animosity you feel toward Buells in DSBK. Bingo. Glad to hear some insight from other forums. Maybe the head honchos at DMG actually knew what they were doing when setting up the AMA classes? | ||
| Trojan |
When the series moves to a true road course the 600s will have the advantage due to weight. The 1125 is subject to the same weight limiits as the 600's isn't it? It is only the other twins that have a weight penalty. Is the RC8 winning Superbike races? If so, it must be in a series that doesn't get much publicity around here. KTM are following the same well trodden development path as BMW, Aprilia and Ducati. They are making sure that their bike is going to be competitive before launching it onto the WSB stage. The RC8R is racing in the German Superbike series this year just to get the team up to speed and iron out any problems with the bike. It will be in WSB in 2010. I hope you are all correct about the future of US racing. After all, I am a foreigner so don't understand the full intricacies of the US race scene. However, as an outsider I can see problems where maybe those close cannot. I don't see where the next Ben Spies/Kenny Roberts/Randy Mamola etc will come from under the current system and that will only make the US scene poorer surely, as will lack of factory interest. DMG may not like the factories, but they put more money into racing at the top level than anyone else and their absence will be felt eventually. Dave says he remembers when Daytona was the biggest race in the USA. I remember when it was one of the biggest races in the World along with Ontario and the Isle of Man. Back then Daytona attracted full houses and the very best racers in the world riding the very best machinery. Even with the restrictions of top rider contracts these days I cannot see how the current administration plan on getting it back to the glory days? Or maybe they are quite happy running it as a glorified club race where the main (Superbike) event takes place the day before? | ||
| Crusty |
I don't see where the next Ben Spies/Kenny Roberts/Randy Mamola etc will come from under the current system In the 70s, American road racers were considered well below the level of their European Counterparts. Hell, the same comments were leveled at the American racing scene. After all, they raced on DIRT and only turned left. And they put their foot down! Bloody second rate amateurs! Then Kenny Roberts went to Formula 1 and showed what it was all about. I think DMG knows what their doing. As far as the racers being able to handle the competition in WSB or Moto GP, you'll have ample opportunities to eat crow. | ||
| Elvis |
KTM are following the same well trodden development path as BMW, Aprilia and Ducati. They are making sure that their bike is going to be competitive before launching it onto the WSB stage. The RC8R is racing in the German Superbike series this year just to get the team up to speed and iron out any problems with the bike. It will be in WSB in 2010. So if a Buell takes a 7th place in Canadian Superbike over the space of a 2008 season and if a Buell takes a 15th place in AMA Superbike in the second round of the season they haven't proven anything. But a BMW or RC8 is a "real superbike" because we know they will spend enough money in the future? And when Buell is doing the work to develop the kind of team, riders and sponsors they'll need for a Superbike run by competing in Sportbike you scoff at them? I'm sorry, but that argument is beyond weak. | ||
| Eboos |
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| Greenlantern |
Or maybe they are quite happy running it as a glorified club race where the main (Superbike) event takes place the day before? Superbike has it's established base. It is not going away anytime soon for any reason. The connection to club racing legitimate or implied is a welcome one because without club racing, American racing can not prosper as a sport, it can only be regarded as an entertainment spectacle akin to pro wrestling. I get it and have taken a legitimate interest in racing for the first time since Scott Russell was racing green and on his way to being dubbed Mr. Daytona. | ||
| Trojan |
But a BMW or RC8 is a "real superbike" because we know they will spend enough money in the future? No, they are a 'real superbike' because they are or will be racing in 'real' superbike championships, not a restricted or limited series like Canadian Superbike. If BMW/KTM/Aprilia decide to spend money on their Superbike projects then surely that is a good thing? Any manufacturer willing to plough millions of Dollars/Euros/Yen/Pounds into racing should be applauded, not pilloried as they seem to be in the AMA 'new order'. I never realised it was a competition to see who can spend the least. I believe that the 1125R IS a real superbike, and as I have said before I wholeheartedly applaud Higbee and his team running in the Superbike class. However, I also believe that running in the Sportbike class does the image of the 1125 no favours at all, particularly outside the US where Buell is supposedly chasing sales. The 1125R is about as unpopular in Europe as it is possible for a bike to be, and they are taking up space in warehouses because they are not selling. Race success (or even participation) in Superbikes would go a long way to convincing prospective buyers that it is a serious contender and should be looked at in the same bracket as the 1098 and RC8 (which it is definitely NOT at the moment over here). One last thing. Everyone seems to be comparing Nascar to the new AMA as if it is a good thing. Unlike car racing, motorcycle racing sells bikes for the street, and it is a very well known fact that what wins on Sunday sells on Monday. Why do you think major manufacturers still commit millions to bike racing even in hard economic times such as we have now. How many Nascar viewers will buy a Ford just because it wins a Nascar race? Not many I imagine, because nobody seems to care (or know) which make of car wins. If that is the knowledge base that the AMA are looking for amongst fans then why not just run a one make championship and be done with it. That way everyone could ride Buells and they would win every round  Time will tell. I hope it works out. | ||
| Elvis |
Those are fair points, Matt. If you had said: "Buell can't be compared to the 1098R or GSXR1000 until they've won some real Superbike races.", I'd have to agree, but when you threw the RC8 out there, I had to call you on it, because I don't see that the RC8 is any more race-proven at this point than the 1125R. Would I like Buell to have a big, expensive racing program? Hmmmm, honestly, I don't know if they're ready for that yet. I've always contrasted the Harley VR1000 approach with Buell's ground-up approach and much preferred the Buell method. I would like to see Buell race WSBK, but I'm willing to be patient and wait for them to really be ready at that point rather than them jumping in at the deep end of the pool. If, at the point Buell enters WSBK, they've already got some Canadian Superbike and AMA Superbike wins behind them I would feel a lot more comfortable than them being in a "chips all-in situation" such as BMW currently finds themselves. At that point, the bike will already have shown something and then it will just be about enjoying the sport rather than trying to prove something to the world. . . . and would I rather Geico put out a big chunk of the bill rather than Buell taking resources away from R & D for racing? Sure, that would be nice. I do see the idea of a doing more for less admirable (I think that one point is where you and I probably diverge most strongly). I'd rather not pay $1000 extra on my bike to help support a racing program if possible. (Message edited by elvis on March 25, 2009) | ||
| Trojan |
I have been looking the MCN Sports coverage today and have found just this http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresul ts/mcn/2009/march/23-29/mar2309-suzuki-dominate-in -fontana/?&R=EPI-107030 on the AMA races at Fontana; Note that the Sportbike class doesn't even warrant a mention. Superbikes are all that matters outside the AMA/DMG bubble these days, and it doesn't look like the new format has made a dent in the Suzuki stranglehold does it? What I find very interesting is that Suzuki are struggling in every other Superbike series, yet dominant in AMA. This obviously isn't just about Mladin either, as most of the minor places are also taken by GSXR1000's too. It is also pretty obvious that apart from a couple of notable exceptions such as Josh Hayes the Superbike series is going to be pretty much dominated by 'old stagers' rather than young racers on their way up. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I guess I'm going to have to hand the reigns over to someone else... frankly, I'm worn out trying to defend Buell. Here is an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=174366 | ||
| Duggram |
Give it up Red and save yourself for something worthwhile. It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. - William G. McAdoo, US industrialist, lawyer, & politician (1863 - 1941) | ||
| Dentguy |
You gotta let that stuff go. As long the Buell runs up front, people are going to look at the rules, see that Buell is a partner in AMA racing and the talk will keep going. If you look at it from somebody's view on the outside that doesn't know much, you have to admit , it doesn't look fair. | ||
| Court |
I read through all those . . . . I sent the guy who "knows there is payola between Buell and DMG" a note. Let's see if he is just blowing smoke out his ass or not . . I've asked for his "proof". They may not care for the rules and they are free to have a discussion, but frankly they are the Aprilia equivalent of Badweb . . I don't see many of them being quick to blurt out "the darn Buell just kicked out ass". Aprilia had the fastest lap time at Daytona. Why do you think it did not win? I have no proof of anything. | ||
| Duggram |
Nice Schwantz interview on OTT about the current state of affairs (AMA/DMG, Buell and Aprilia). Best of all is the footage of Eslick during practice. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Thanks Court, was kinda feeling like a lost pointman out beyond the perimeter. BTW- just finished reading your book last night... read cover to cover in one sitting- I just couldn't put it down. I hope to post up some pics from Sebring for you, although it wasn't kind to Porsche this year. | ||
| Court |
Great interview . . . Has anyone suggested that the Apriia ( the "work in progress" ) has an unfair advantage at 1,000 cc? | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
Kevin Schwantz has a mature professional take on things (not surprising). If everyone would take a deep breath and let the season play out, there would be a more productive discussion about improving racing. I remain hopeful that a good product will lead to more fans, more money and people involved, better coverage, and better racing for the existing fans. There were SOME voices of reason on the Aprilia site. They are clearly biased, as are we to some extent, to the their/our brand. Most reasonable people understand trying to equalize the playing field for better racing. On the other side of the coin, there are some people who will never be able to get past the displacement differences. I've stopped trying to convince them otherwise or listening to what they have to say. You know what they say about beating your head against the wall... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"On the other side of the coin, there are some people who will never be able to get past the displacement differences. " 100% correct The same is happening at WSBK with the Ducati using 1200cc&2cyl against the 1000cc&4cyl of the rest of the field. Last year with Ducati dominating there were many people saying that the series was a joke and there were rumours of some Jap factories leaving. This year Spies is dominating on the Yamaha and everyone has forgotten about the Ducati "advantage". It just takes time and a few races to really see if someone has an advantage, but people are always with no patience. "If everyone would take a deep breath and let the season play out, there would be a more productive discussion about improving racing." Bingo! | ||
| Greenlantern |
There were SOME voices of reason on the Aprilia site. They are clearly biased, as are we to some extent, to the their/our brand. It's a shame though. While I am biased towards the Buell admittedly, I would be very disappointed and considerably less interested in the series as a whole if Aprilia and or Ducati were not there. Us against them is fun, but us against THEM ALL is much more satisfying!  | ||
| Trojan |
Has anyone suggested that the Apriia ( the "work in progress" ) has an unfair advantage at 1,000 cc? Why would they? The Aprilia is a 9 year old engine at the very end of it's development life. They are still a great road bike and competitive at club level, but it hasn't been competitive (or even tried!) in Superbike racing since Haga and Corser rode them in 2001 (I think). Why do you think Aprilia developed their V4? Then they have a weight penalty slapped on them by DMG as well................ Chaz Davies getting into the top ten at Daytona on the old RSVR should be viewed as a massive achievement. | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, the Aprilia went through some design changes. The 2004 models are not the same as the first generation or the revamped units with the different frames the year or two after. Additionally, the ones that Haga and Corser rode in WSB are not related to the bikes that were raced in Formula USA by Chris Carr, Mike Himmelsbach and others or to the ones that KWS is racing. Cosworth engines vs Rotax motors. It's like comparing a SV1000S to a factory Ducati 999R. |
