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Diablo1
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 06:54 pm: | 
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Here's a link someone else posted about the "Special Allowances" given to Aprilia, Buell and Ducati by DMG. The 600s don't get allowances. The Ducati allowances apply to the 1098R for Superbike. Check out the magnesium wheel option for Buell + 365 lb weight min. They may not have used it so far, but it looks to be coming your way soon.
http://www.amasuperbike.com/assets/AMAPro-CompBull -2009-03.pdf |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 06:56 pm: |
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I see a lot they can do with the rules, not so much with different parts/materials, but rather with working and modifying what they have.
They can port/polish the heads and intake manifold, up the compression, increase cam duration (but not lift), and change the cam degree. Aftermarket valves are also permitted, so long as minimum dimension and weight is retained.
It would be cool to see the post-race dyno results. I bet the 6ers are up there. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 07:04 pm: |
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There are stock parts, and there are "stock" parts... |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 07:19 pm: |
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I was actually surprised at how MUCH they could change. |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 07:23 pm: |
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They can port/polish the heads and intake manifold, up the compression, increase cam duration (but not lift), and change the cam degree. Aftermarket valves are also permitted, so long as minimum dimension and weight is retained.
Nope, not for Daytona Sportbike.
No head porting, stock injectors and throttle bodies, stock valves, springs and retainers, stock camshaft, stock piston, rings, rods, and crank. By stock, that means unmodified. You are allowed to increase compression by surfacing the head or block.
} |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:03 pm: |
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Check out the magnesium wheel option for Buell + 365 lb weight min. They may not have used it so far, but it looks to be coming your way soon.
Post-race weight of the Buell was 397. With the restrictions put on the modifications of the bikes, how exactly will they shave appx. 35 additional pounds? The already have the Buell race exhaust (and from the look of it, it's saves probably 15 pounds.) I assume they already have the magnesium wheels, but I wasn't smart enough to look for those. Right there you have two of the largest weight savers...where else? The also run a modified radiator setup that lacks the fans and related mounting hardware...
I should have asked the post-race weight of the other 2 600s being torn down. I venture to say they are considerably lighter that the Buell.
Weight advantage to the 600s. Power advantage to the Buell--and maybe not as much as people are speculating. Seems like the making for some good racing to me. |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:05 pm: |
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Diablo1 - So what I read from this PDF is not true? Check page 13.
http://amaproracing.com/assets/RR_Rules_2009.pdf
Oh crap, those are Superbike standards. My bad!!
(Message edited by boltrider on March 23, 2009) |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:14 pm: |
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I'm waiting to see the new Buell 2250r on sale this July.Superbike here we come |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:19 pm: |
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So the rule differences lead to my next question. Does anyone know if Higbee's Superbike motor is still essentially spec'd out to Sport bike standards?
(Message edited by boltrider on March 23, 2009) |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:21 pm: |
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Superbike here we come
We? Sounds like you are playing on another team. |
Ponti1
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:28 pm: |
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I read the special allowances for the Buell primarily as safety items and insignificant bits.
Magnesium wheels...Maybe stronger than a questionable aluminum wheel?
Connecting rod bolts? Maybe the grade of bolt is borderline unsafe for the strain expected in that level of racing?
Forks? They look like an allowance to race an '08 bike with '09 forks.
Chain drive? Gotta let them have proper gearing for each track, or what's the point???
Airbox? Okay, I can't think of anything for this one. However, I've not seen anyone report improved dyno runs with an open airbox. I've heard seat of pants impression, but to me that's just because you can hear the massive intake tract sucking air with the inner cover removed. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:43 pm: |
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Airbox? Okay, I can't think of anything for this one. However, I've not seen anyone report improved dyno runs with an open airbox. I've heard seat of pants impression, but to me that's just because you can hear the massive intake tract sucking air with the inner cover removed.
Airbox was on the Buell yesterday. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 08:44 pm: |
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So the rule differences lead to my next question. Does anyone know if Higbee's Superbike motor is still essentially spec'd out to Sport bike standards?
Where's Ozzie? I had the same thought yesterday? |
Ponti1
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 09:04 pm: |
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Airbox was on the Buell yesterday.
Inner airbox was on? Wonder what other mods could be made? Different intake scoop design/size under the fairing maybe?
I figure there has to be some reason for listing the allowed variance.
Note: I am not questioning whether Buells should be allowed in this class, because I think they are fine to do so and well within the rules. Just asking a question! |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 09:13 pm: |
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Magnesium wheels...Maybe stronger than a questionable aluminum wheel?
Nope, magnesium wheels are lighter for quicker acceleration and turn-in. They aren't stronger than aluminum wheels.} |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 09:34 pm: |
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Higbee's motor, I believe, has never been opened.
I'm not sure about that but I am under the impression that it was "out of the box". Perhaps it has now, it hadn't at Daytona. |
Doerman
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 12:02 am: |
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I'm here Harlan... and why didn't you stop by Higbee's garage and say Hi?
The motor on Higbee's Superbike and the Daytona Sportbike are identical to each other and completely stock.
The airbox, filter, intake: Stock
ECM: Buell Race ECM
Exhaust system: Buell race exhaust (headers and can) |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 02:30 am: |
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I'm here Harlan... and why didn't you stop by Higbee's garage and say Hi?
I am kicking myself for not seeing you there. I probably walked around the Buell garage a half dozen times. I actually met Al there to pickup a part from him on Saturday. I saw Shawn and his girlfriend/wife (the blonde gal.) She was quite noticeable, but who wouldn't notice a pretty blonde in the Higbee-racing jacket.
I think that's totally cool that you are in the mix with a good person and extremely talented racer like Shawn. I am envious if you can't tell. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:52 am: |
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I'm happy to see Buell winning, but all this really makes me wonder why the Buell is so down on power.
When you look at the 1125R motor, it has all the right ingredients. There is no reason that I can see that it should be laying down power near what the Ducati 1198 puts out. The Duc will edge it on the top end due to the desmo set up allowing higher revs, but come on....an 1125cc motor putting down less than 130hp and a 600cc keeping up with it?
Buell needs to take a page out of Ducati's book. Let's see an 1125RR, dripping with carbon fiber and race goodies.
Eslick seems to be a great rider. Give him a superbike and let him go after Mladin. YEAH!  |
Madav8tr
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 11:51 am: |
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Buell already did take a page out of Ducati's Book. That's where the displacement advantage come from. |
Brapbrapbrap
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 11:53 am: |
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Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 12:17 pm: |
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DESMO BABY! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 01:05 pm: |
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Thanks Brap! I was trying to figure out what "finger follower" meant. Very cool, and very clever.
So are there no springs? Or just less important ones? |
Ds_tiger
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 01:09 pm: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve
you are welcome! |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:15 pm: |
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Desmo is Ducati's solution to valve float at high rpm.
Only drawback I can see is more cam surface wear with more maintenance.
It passes the elegance test.
It fails KISS.
It doesn't gain a lot these days IMO.
Z |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 12:48 am: |
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Actually less cam surface wear (assuming all cam surfaces are created equal). Unless you are adding in the extra cam lobes.
Heavy valve springs cause more pressure, heat and wear on the cam surface with a non desmodromic system.
(Message edited by dentguy on March 25, 2009) |
Brapbrapbrap
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 01:26 am: |
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Zac4mac
Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:15 pm:
It fails KISS.
I see it the opposite, I find it simply elegant. |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 10:44 am: |
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If that Wiki article is worth a damn, then the desmo valves don't hold much of an advantage anymore. Computer modeling has help the spring-loaded valve train to catch up - per Wikipedia anyway. |
Carbonbigfoot
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 10:51 am: |
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In another thread, someone noted that piston speed in the 1125 at 11,500 would be well over 5000 fps, so we really can't spin the motor much faster without some really exotic materials or a major redesign with respect to stroke. The only benefits would be reduced drag from the valvetrain, and that would come at what cost?
I'm falling into the "Tune, Baby, Tune" camp.
Rob
(Message edited by carbonbigfoot on March 25, 2009) |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 11:31 am: |
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There are some other benefits due to the desmo valve train than just avoiding valve float.
In the MotoGP class 2007 many people wondered how the Ducati was so fast on the straights and how Stoner could run some of his fastest laps late in the race.
MotoGP has lowered the fuel capacity allowed from 26 litres in 2004 to 21 litres in 2007. What that meant was that the ECU had to lean out mixture in some areas (taking away power) to avoid running out of fuel.
The valve spring pressure (very high) that some MotoGP bikes run to avoid valve float at 18000 RPM take engine power to open them. That engine power uses more fuel. Since there is only so much fuel, the ECU has to cut back to save some to finish.
Because the desmo system doesn't have to overcome those valve spring pressures which can use up more fuel, the ECU doesn't have to cut back as much on the mixture. More power. You may feel that it can't be much fuel, but when you are limited to how much you can carry, it can make a big difference.
There have been some articles written about this by people way smarter than I am and I'm sure many can debate this all day.
Just some thoughts.
It's not all about the bike anyway. Somebody has to ride it. Just ask Rossi.
Now, back to the Buell talk.
(Message edited by dentguy on March 25, 2009) |
Carbonbigfoot
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 11:56 am: |
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There is power, and there is efficiency. Further, in an 18000 RPM engine there are some massive engineering issues not present in a 10000 RPM engine. Point well taken.
R |
Didactic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 02:44 pm: |
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Nice to see Buells in competition -- even if it means more people might start riding them (what can I say, I like having the only one in the parking lot). The pic of his knee dragging through the grass is great, my new desktop wallpaper.
For the detractors, it seems like sour grapes to me. I am not a fanboy of Buell, just love riding mine but my experience has been that on the track it is the rider that makes most of the difference, then the machine they are riding. From what I can see the stats are close when all is taken into account...and this fixation on CCs while ignoring engine design seems like a fundamentally dishonest argument.
Personally, I would love to see a new RC51 type metric come into the fray, always loved that bike and I was sorry to see it get dropped. I like watching racing between teams that bring more than one type of bike...makes it interesting and from what I have seen so far it has generated more comments than the Superbike clone wars have. I hope that Buell will develop and field a bike for Superbike too...would make it interesting for me again.
YMMV of course but as a wise man once told me, "amateurs argue caliber and brand, professionals debate tactics and strategy".
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