| Author | Message | ||
     Slowride |
As some of you know I am riding the ST1800 these days and I have been spending some time on the GL1800 board. I have been lurking on there for a little while, more or less scoping out the crew. A few pictures have been posted showing the ST1800 in full lean on the dragon from the Killboy website. During the follow on discussions the comments have been flat out mind boggling. I was so bumfuzzled, I decided to start a thread on there call "Improving your riding skillz for Geriatric GW'ingers" Some of the topics posted so far for their consideration has been... Countersteering Covering the Front Brake Panic Braking These topics have threads which have articles written by well known authors with proven principals and techniques, that I posted up for their review. I still remain bewildered by some of the off the wall things those riders have to say and the BS and disbelief they have for proven techniques. So, What say you on the three topics covered? Any nuggets of wisdom? | ||
| Old_man |
Countersteering: should be practised so as to be second nature. Every fatal motorcycle accident I investigated appeared to have been caused by steering the bars the wrong way at speed. | ||
| Josh_ |
Motorcycles traveling over approx 20MPH only change direction via counter-steer. Covering the front brake saves you valuable split seconds when you need them. Panic braking, try not to w/o ABS Remember, when it doubt gas it. It may not fix the problem, but it ends the suspense. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Panic Braking - DON"T panic. Take the MSF Experienced Rider Course if you are able, you'll get to discuss and PRACTICE Maximum Braking which involves progressively increasing applying the front brake while also using your rear brake. Your bike may have a linked or possibly an anti-lock brake system, which will take some practice to use to its full potential. If it doesn't, well that will take some practice to use to its full potential too  Remember the front brake has around 70% of your bike's stopping power. Weight moves forward as you apply the front and allows you to increase your application of that brake. We practice this because as weight shifts forward it is easy to over brake the rear and skid - which means you've just exceeded maximum braking and lost traction. Closed course with a coach can really help with this a lot, and you ride your own bike in the ERC so you know it that much better when you roll off the course onto the street. Covering the Front Brake Don't do this while cornering, if you get too excited in a turn and try to use it you'll loose traction. Or stand your bike up and run off the road. Either option isn't good. BUT as Josh said "Covering the front brake saves you valuable split seconds when you need them." I do this occasionally when riding in heavy traffic or approaching a busy intersection or areas I know to be accident prone. But typically I'm covering my clutch and watching traffic closely instead (that way I'm not so surprised that I make a "panic stop"). There will be many opinions posted on counter steering, some will claim you don't counter steer, and others will get it backwards. It can be hard to explain and harder to understand when you read about it on-line. I won't discuss it here, there are too many "experts" but I've taught about it in the classroom and on the range. It's a lot easier in the real world than online. There are others on the board who are riding instructors too, I taught for six years but had to stop last year because of my regular job. PM me if you'd like, I'll give you my number and tell you a couple things you can try on your own in an empty lot to get clear understanding of counter steering. -Mike (Message edited by littlebuggles on March 19, 2009) | ||
| Old_man |
Many are not aware that they are countersteering when they turn. Practise, using a deliberate turn of the bars, rather than just pressure on the bar. When this becomes second nature you will not make the mistake of trying to turn the bars the wrong way in an emergency situation. I was about to teach a new rider. I told him of countersteering. He discussed this with a friend, with over 20 years riding experience. He told him that I was full of it. He, obviously, was unaware of what he was doing all those years. During training, the first time I had him turn the bars to countersteer, he was amazed that I was correct. | ||
| Aesquire |
Counter steering is real. If it worked the way a car does, why wouldn't they call it "steering"? I cover the front brake to speed reaction. It works. panic stops? Learn the edge of traction. Seek it when you are fresh and alert. Gain a reasoned feel for the edges of the envelope, and know, deep in your bones that traction is a variable and may not be there because of water, oil or dirt/gravel. Use safe conditions in isolation from road traffic to find the lines you don't want to cross, and train the seat of your pants to feel that line. Know that over that line is gravity & pain. The seat of your pants had better be trained, because your head just panic'd and isn't helping. Remember, when it doubt gas it. It may not fix the problem, but it ends the suspense.  | ||
| Macdiver |
I'm more interested in reading some of the comments have been flat out mind boggling. So what were some of the really good ones? | ||
| Brumbear |
Old man is correct I don't even think about it anymore. Practice practice practice the brake covering works as well. I noticed one thing the other day I was watching a bunch of youtube vids and I noticed people doing there vids flying bye a stationary camera and it occurred to me when the buells seem to ride together the other bikes on the road seem to look like the camera just sitting there not that we all ride crazy it's not that at all . I know the guys I have been riding with are extremely in control just moving the way the bike was made to move and that has also helped me alot learning from the better riders | ||
| Thumper74 |
I think that in a car... it's different because you don't do it enough to make it second nature. Generally, anytime I've purposely countersteered in my car, it was a felony if I got caught. Rider's Edge has saved my life. The Ohio BRC has saved my dad's life. It helped me overcome some negative habits and I was the 'Super Hero of Swerve' for my class. After reading 'Total Control', I go out and practice weaving, panic braking, etc. I panic stop when there are no other cars around so that I get into the habit of staying at the limit because I've experienced what happens when the limit is passed. | ||
| Josh_ |
Get on the Total Control site and find an ARC class near you! I was asked to be an instructor but I just don't have the time. Great class tho! | ||
| Boltrider |
1) Found out about countersteering in my MSF class. It helped ease the learning curve after I got my license and started riding the surface streets. 2) I cover the front brake in dense traffic, but that's about it. 3) Only had to panic stop once. My front brake pressure was good, but the rear wheel walked around on me a bit. The rear tire was cold, so that had something to do with it. | ||
| Ourdee |
I got counter steering down pat by riding a dirt bike off road with my left hand on the right grip when I was young. I need to play in the parking lot with the XT. Could use some more low speed skill. | ||
| Slaughter |
Here's something to give the guy who says countersteering is a myth: Have them ride and when they're nowhere near traffic, take their LEFT hand and use the LEFT hand on the throttle. Keep your right hand at your side. If you do not CONSCIOUSLY and DELIBERATELY counter-steer, you cannot control the bike. Try it sometime - it'll make you a believer. I tend always to cover the brake... I THINK... Panic braking I always end up using just about ALL my braking using just the front brake. | ||
| Old_man |
In a hard panic stop most of the braking is done by the front wheel due to the unloading of the rear. Under these circumstances the rear wheel will easily lock up. Some braking of the rear will help, just don't stomp on it. | ||
| Josh_ |
>the rear wheel will easily lock up. don't pull in the clutch and it won't | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
don't pull in the clutch and it won't +1 The MSF course is great for teaching folks to pull the clutch in when issues arise, but sometimes taking the engine out of the equation makes the problem worse not better. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The maximum braking practice is very important...I can't count how many time times I have seen crashes where the rubber mark from the locked up rear brake went straight to the point of impact...it is said that 70% of the braking force is supplied by the front brake...at times it is more than that... No one has specifically mentioned tires, so I will...yeah I know everybody wants tires that last forever...that means hard compounds...hard compound tires have poor traction especially when cold...find a tire that provides the best possible traction/wear balance....personally, I run the stickiest tires I can get...I change a lot of tires, but I know I have maximum traction when I need it most...when the cager on the cell phone decides to try to kill me... | ||
| Jaimec |
The MSF USED to teach "Brake, Clutch, Downshift." In the NEW curriculum, they teach "Clutch, Downshift, Brake." Why? I have NO idea, other than it eliminates the problem of students stalling their bikes on the range. In the real world, I describe it as: 1) Squeeze in the Clutch 2) Downshift to first 3) SLAM into the obstacle 4) Left foot to the ground first. I AM an MSF RiderCoach, but my views are my own and do not reflect the Motorcycle Safety Foundation nor the school for which I teach. | ||
| Greenlantern |
The MSF USED to teach "Brake, Clutch, Downshift." In the NEW curriculum, they teach "Clutch, Downshift, Brake." Why? I have NO idea, other than it eliminates the problem of students stalling their bikes on the range. I'm not sure why they would teach either exclusively when in reality both can apply in different situations more effectively. I am mulling it over and realize that I use both techniques in different situations, though the fraction of seconds it takes you to perform these steps make you oblivious to the order you perform them unless you think about it in retrospect, or is that just me? (Message edited by greenlantern on March 20, 2009) | ||
| Jaimec |
If you're trying to STOP, then the brake should always be the FIRST thing you reach for. Time is distance, and any delay in actuating the brake results in unnecessary distance traveled before you stop. As I've pointed out before: 60mph is roughly 90 feet a second. The average response time between seeing a hazard, recognizing the hazard, and STARTING to do something about it is 1.8-1.9 seconds. To make the math easier, say two seconds. Two seconds before you even start to apply the brake. At 60 mph, you've just gone 180 feet, or more than half the length of a football field. Capice?? | ||
| Fast1075 |
Good definative answer Jaime...I "cover the brake" all the time...and of old habit I also cover the clutch when at speed...but that's just from the past years of riding 2 strokers tuned to the very edge of destruction... | ||
| Greenlantern |
Capice?? Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you on any level, just asking why one technique would be taught to cover ALL situations if that is way I understand it. Regardless of what I am doing, deceleration of any type automatically means covering the brake(s) first. With that said though there are non full stop deceleration situations (tight quarter highway speed traffic for instance) where clutching, braking can better situate you in relation to your surroundings. Or have I simply strayed beyond the curriculum here? | ||
| Jaimec |
Squeezing in the clutch first as a deceleration technique just doesn't make sense. Once you disconnect the transmission from the engine, you don't even have engine braking to slow you down. In certain situations, it can actually cause you to accelerate which is the opposite of what you want to do. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Squeezing in the clutch first as a deceleration technique just doesn't make sense. Once you disconnect the transmission from the engine, you don't even have engine braking to slow you down. In certain situations, it can actually cause you to accelerate which is the opposite of what you want to do. I was simply asking as to why a blanket technique of any kind was used in the MSF course or was it just " get you out of the lot" fundamentals(I do not know and would like to be enlightened). I understand the fundamentals of momentum, inertia, engine braking and motorcycle mechanics,but also from experience learned that my machines braking capability sometimes exceeds the reaction time if not the braking ability of the cage riding my tail when I see a potential braking situation ahead and the escape routes are not looking to be many. In those situations my clutch hand starts the engagement while my already covered front brake is feathered lightly with my rear brake covered in case of engine re-engagement for a proper hard stop. Sounds like a lot but it comes together in a fraction of the time it takes to read this sentence. I have not induced a panic stop with a sudden scrub of speed from the cage behind me which may also stir up the rest of the chickens I'm trapped with, but alerted that car to the fact that I am braking and to back off without compromising my escape ability due to suspension loading or dramatic loss of momentum, while retaining the option to control brake with engine ( a 1/2" of play away) in case the perceived situation becomes reality. There may be seemingly easier ways to do this, but they each involve bad if not potentially dangerous practices which could easily become habit. I grant you these are one in a thousand circumstances but every second is a event in motorcycling and sometimes we have to adapt. But I agree 99% of the time the brake /engine combo will produced the most ideal stopping experience and apologize for introducing technical minutia to the thread. I'll stop now because I'm even annoying myself.  | ||
| Blublak |
The 'Blanket technique' is the one used by a lot of pro racers. I've watched these guys come down from 150+ to 35mph and dive into a turn. I think the idea is that as a panic reaction you want to have your body react automatically, so you teach the muscles to use the hard 'panic' version of stopping. Reg Pridmore once described coming into turn 1 at VIR something like this.. "Only doing about 150 or so, coming into one I start DOWNSHIFTING at the 300ft mark (300 feet from turn in) somewhere between 100 and 200 I'm in 2nd and start braking.. then I turn in." Yes, is way more skilled then I. And yes, he can probably turn better then just about all of us on this board.. However, if he can slow himself down on a street bike (CBR1000 or 600) like that on the track, the same should be applicable to the street, staying in control and dumping huge amounts of speed can be done with that technique. In slower traffic, I find that the reverse seems to work really well.. Go figure.. | ||
| Old_man |
don't pull in the clutch and it won't With the rear tire completely unloaded, not only will it lock but it will stall the engine. | ||
| Jaimec |
Another technique the MSF teaches that I disagree with is "Slow, Look, Press, Roll." The late Larry Grodsky actually explained it as "Slow, Roll, Look, Press." And if you ever analyze what you're doing in a corner, that IS what you're doing. You slow in a straight line. You roll on the throttle a bit to stabilize the bike, you look into the turn, and then you press on the bar to change direction and make the turn keeping the throttle either steady or gently increasing speed. If you do it the way the MSF describes, you slow (which destabilizes the bike), you turn your head (further destabilizing yourself), you press on the bar to initiate the lean and THEN you roll on the throttle causing the engine to transmit power while you're in a leaned over, unstable position. It's no wonder novices have such a hard time sometimes in the BRC cornering exercises. Keith Code teaches it correctly. He breaks it down this way: 1) Job one is to stabilize the motorcycle 2) The only way to stabilize the motorcycle is with the throttle. His "Quick Flick" cornering technique is to minimize the amount of time the motorcycle is unstable (but don't try it on cold tires). With these comments, please understand I am NOT discussing beginning riding techniques. As I said before... I am a certified MSF RiderCoach, but my views do NOT reflect those of either the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, nor the school for which I teach. When I teach, I teach by the book whether I agree with it or not. | ||
| Ourdee |
Thankyou Old_man, Now I don't have to say it. | ||
| Old_man |
"Panic braking" is a whole different animal. | ||
| Jaimec |
I've always hated the term "Panic Braking." To me, that implies the rider wasn't paying attention and was surprised by something that was happening RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM/HER. Once you're in "Panic Mode" you've already lost the battle. |
