| Author | Message | ||
     Diablo1 |
I am surprised not to see buells in WSB considering the Germans and frech have been succesful with the 1125r They haven't yet developed anywhere near the power to be competitive with WSBK levels. I think the Buell folks know the limitations of the design, and you won't see them show up in WSBK.} | ||
| Jaimec |
It can be as fast as anyone wants it to be. It just takes money. Harley is not willing to finance a full factory effort. It would be a REAL kick in the teeth if they fund an MV Agusta team, though. Frankly, I'd feel better watching it get beat by other 1000s than seeing it get beat by 600s. But that's just me... | ||
| Jimidan |
After watching with an admitted element of surprise as Ben has dominated the field, there is no doubt in my mind that if Mat had gone to WSBK too, that he and Ben would be running out in front of everybody else just like they did in AMA. No doubt at all. | ||
| Blake |
I disagree. Certainly it wouldn't be "just like they did in AMA." In AMA SBK Matt and Ben routinely finished eight or more seconds in front of third place. That won't likely happen in WSBK. I for one very much appreciate the new rules in AMA Roadracing. More brands and types of motorcycles racing and competing is better. A field of just 600cc IL4s is better? THAT's goofy! | ||
| Blake |
"I think the Buell folks know the limitations of the design, and you won't see them show up in WSBK." Are these the same limitations that allowed a near stock privateer 1125R, down more than 30 HP to the competition and in its debut Canadian Superbike race, to finish on the podium? BUELL 1125R MAKES HISTORIC SUPERBIKE DEBUT} New undeveloped bike, new track, DOT tires, down more than 30, even 40 HP, racing head to head against a former two-time champion and a podium finish ahead of said former champion. Limitations? You're funny. | ||
| Blake |
The above report from... http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/05/26/buell -1125r-takes-3rd-in-canadian-superbike-opener/ | ||
| Court |
>>>>"I think the Buell folks know the limitations of the design, and you won't see them show up in WSBK." The Buell folks indeed TO know the limitations of the design. Care to bet lunch?  I mean really. . . . do folks think that these American educated young engineers full of dreams and enthusiasm are stupid or lazy? | ||
| Bads1 |
John Hopkins WSB !!! http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=35891 | ||
| Davegess |
Care to bet lunch? I mean really. . . . do folks think that these American educated young engineers full of dreams and enthusiasm are stupid or lazy? Hell I'd bet more than lunch! Erik would do just about anything to be racing there. Might take longer than a month or two however. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Are these the same limitations that allowed a near stock privateer 1125R, down more than 30 HP to the competition and in its debut Canadian Superbike race, to finish on the podium? Canadian Superbike isn't WSBK. In WSBK, the bikes make 210+ HP. When Aprilia went to WSBK racing in 2000 with the twin, they knew the Rotax couldn't make competitive power, so they had Cosworth design them a motor for homologation and WSBK racing that did make competitive power. The Buell 1125 isn't big enough, and I doubt the motor can rev high enough and stay together to make similar power to the Ducati 1198 that's raced in WSBK. I'm not saying that Buell couldn't design an engine to compete in WSBK. I'm saying the 1125 is not the engine. To go racing and be competitive, they need to build a new or very modified engine with around 1200cc and around 200+ HP. And they need to build 3000 bikes with this new engine for homologation. Care to bet lunch? I mean really. . . . do folks think that these American educated young engineers full of dreams and enthusiasm are stupid or lazy? OK, sure you're on. I'm betting that Buell will not go WSBK racing with the 1125 this season or next. Will they go WSBK racing with a different homologated bike and engine in the next 5 years? Maybe....if they can afford it. I'll assume their engineers aren't stupid, and because of this they should know how much HP the competition has and what level is required from their design. Brand loyalty is one thing, realistic expectations are another.} | ||
| Jaimec |
The 1125R is already a bigger engine than the original 1098. Ducati had to bore it out to 1198 to make it competitive. Where does it say the 1125R displaces as much as it possibly can? What's the qualification, 3,000 homologation specials sold with 1198cc engines and chain drive and VOILA! Superbike competitor! 1125RR? But back to the reason I came here... just saw the article at Superbike Planet regarding Hopkins (listed above). TWO Americans on the WSBK grid! This really IS the series to watch this year! | ||
| Benm2 |
I hope Hopper gets a competetive bike! It would be great to see Hopper & Spies dicing at the front, "Duel of the Elbows"! I still have a background shot for my PC of Hopper draggin' elbow... | ||
| Xb984r |
" What's the qualification, 3,000 homologation specials sold with 1198cc engines and chain drive and VOILA! Superbike competitor! 1125RR?" Could 3000 1125RR's be sold, I would be surprised if they have actually sold 3000 1125's as it is now. | ||
| Jaimec |
People (at least in the States) don't buy bikes because they're practical... they buy them to make their dicks bigger. That's why people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a bike as miserably uncomfortable as a Bourget, and pass right by a bargain-priced Suzuki Bandit 1250 which would be a far more practical choice for the majority of buyers. That being said, if Buell sold an 1125RR model (even at a premium price) that could conceivably beat the Ducati 1198 or Suzuki GSXR, they'd sell a TON of them. Of course, you'd still have the problem of the sales being sabotaged by clueless Harley salesmen... but that's a whole 'nother issue. And back on topic: ELBOWS UP!! Hopper and Spies!! | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake Sez, I disagree. Certainly it wouldn't be "just like they did in AMA." In AMA SBK Matt and Ben routinely finished eight or more seconds in front of third place. That won't likely happen in WSBK. I for one very much appreciate the new rules in AMA Roadracing. More brands and types of motorcycles racing and competing is better. A field of just 600cc IL4s is better? THAT's goofy! Granted, I agree that the lead would not be nearly as great as in the AMA racing...that was my exuberance talking. Ben seems to be able to establish a 3 second lead and maintain it as long as he wants to. But what I meant to say was they they both would be leading the field, as I believe that Mat could definitely compete with Ben at that level. It will never happen, but it would be fun to watch. I like the new rules too...variety is the spice of racing. | ||
| Jaimec |
I gave up on "N.A.S.BIKE." Mladin will win again not because of any rules changes but because he's head and shoulders above the rest of the grid. If you want to know how much better, just look at what the guy who beat him the last three years in a row is doing in WSBK. Unless they force Mat to ride with his right arm in a sling, they're not going to change the outcome. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Hopper in WSBK is great news. I think he is a top rider and very spectacular. He pulled the best wheelies in motoGP. The picture below is from Valencia in 2007. He was at the podium that year. I hope he gives Haga, Biaggi and Spies a fight we will never forget. The season looks very interesting . Well done for Honda for signing him. Lets hope HRC backs him, so that they have a chance to see a Honda bike win a race.  | ||
| Jaimec |
Wonder how superstitious Hopper is? He won't be allowed to run "21" in WSBK, since that number was retired (along with Troy Bayliss). Sometimes, the stupidest-sounding things can have a big effect on a rider. At Indianapolis last year we all had a big laugh at the different rituals every rider went through during practice. Rossi's routine is most familiar... He squats down and holds his right footpeg while lowering his head... he then mounts up and as he rides through pit lane he'll stand up on the pegs and "adjust" his leathers. Edwards always did a little zig-zag wiggle every single time he exited the pit lane (didn't observe anyone else doing this). Stoner would wave everyone past him on the sighting lap. Even though he was in the first row, he was always the LAST rider to return to his grid position. I'm sure these rituals mean a lot more to the riders than they do to the fans in the stands. Kind of like Willie Mays tagging second base every time he ran out to the outfield... | ||
| Blake |
"Canadian Superbike isn't WSBK. " That is an accurate statement. I'm just trying to understand what "limitations" exactly you imagine puts the Buell at such a disadvantage. "The Buell 1125 isn't big enough, and I doubt the motor can rev high enough and stay together to make similar power to the Ducati 1198 that's raced in WSBK." ... To go racing and be competitive, they need to build a new or very modified engine with around 1200cc and around 200+ HP. DUH! You mean just like Ducati does with their R-version engines? DUH! So the "limitations" you imagine are all in the engine. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. What you seem to be saying is that the 1125 in its current stock form is unlikely to compete in WSBK. Good call. I'd to would expect an upgraded ~1200cc racing version for that job. But then you make a leap too far, implying that the Rotax/Buell 1125 engine platform is inadequate. I have no first hand knowledge, but based on common sense, I'd tend to imagine that Erik's enthusiasm for competition and racing likely had him thinking about Superbike racing when he and his associates at Buell spec'd out the Helicon engine platform and what it's capabilities ought to be. Maybe you forgot that the 1125 engine is the only one at the time to include Formula 1 type valvetrain technology? Not capable of revving high enough? Based on what? We know that in a matter of mere months, the 1125R was race kitted and putting down around 180 HP and has been holding together quite well. So despite what some may choose to believe for whatever reason, the facts do not support the idea that the 1125 engine platform is incapable of competing at Superbike level. Early racing results indicate that the rest of the bike/chassis surely is. Just wondering... how many Ducatis have ever finished a Daytona 200? Buell 1125Rs went six for six in their first ever attempt at that brutally challenging race. I'd say that to discount the engine for lack of capability is a strange stance given the facts. I'm not sure, have we heard of a single engine mechanical failure in any race anywhere of any 1125R? Please explain then how one comes to "believe" that the Rotax/Buell 1125 engine platform is inadequate to support racing in Superbike. | ||
| Diablo1 |
But then you make a leap too far, implying that the Rotax/Buell 1125 engine platform is inadequate. I have no first hand knowledge, but based on common sense, I'd tend to imagine that Erik's enthusiasm for competition and racing likely had him thinking about Superbike racing when he and his associates at Buell spec'd out the Helicon engine platform and what it's capabilities ought to be. Maybe you forgot that the 1125 engine is the only one at the time to include Formula 1 type valvetrain technology? Not capable of revving high enough? Based on what? Erik's enthusiasm is no substitute for horsepower and engineering. Finger followers don't make the bottom end hold together at 13,500 rpm. What's the redline on the 1125, vs the Ducati 1098R with titanium rods. } We know that in a matter of mere months, the 1125R was race kitted and putting down around 180 HP We don't know that at all. According to anonymous, the Canadian Superbike engine was putting down 150 HP at the end of the season. If they had 180 HP available, why didn't they let Higbee in on the secret for the Superbike race at Fontana, or loan him a motor? Since he was a Buell employee and test rider up until a short time ago, one could only assume he had access to all the latest information the factory has to make the most power with the 1125. The big point you keep missing is that WSBK requires 3000 homologation bikes to be built in order to race. So, they can race the 1125, but not a "1200 special", because they have no plans to make or homologate a "1200 special". You can tell me I'm wrong on the day that Buell announces they are developing a 1200cc - 200 HP chain drive bike to go Superbike racing. If this were to happen, Buell would most likely have to kill production of the 1125 belt drive model in order to insure they sell out the 3000 units of the 1200 special. }} | ||
| Jaimec |
Diablo, we're getting WAAAAY off topic here. The 1125R was built as a STREET BIKE, NOT a race bike, so the redline and state of tune is slanted towards that. That doesn't mean the components are incapable of the stresses you indicate, and that's what race tuners are paid to do. Next race is in two weeks. Be interesting to see how Hopkins does on a Honda Superbike after all of those years in MotoGP... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I hope Hopkins wins and give even more excitement in WSBK. | ||
| Diablo1 |
The 1125R was built as a STREET BIKE, NOT a race bike, so the redline and state of tune is slanted towards that. Just like all the other bikes used in WSBK, they all exist as DOT legal streetbikes. The difference is that the 1125 can't be race tuned to the power level needed to compete because the basic specifications are too far removed from the competitive requirements. The WSBK rules don't allow you to change all those components on the racebike, unless they exist on the 3,000 homologated bikes. The 1200cc limit for twins in WSBK was not created before Rotax designed the 1125. So Buell did not have the motor designed with the intention of competing in WSBK. The 1125 was over the max displacement for WSBK when it was designed, so everyone knew it couldn't be used in WSBK. Now, the engine is too small for the current WSBK rules. Yes, they would be allowed to race, but no, they couldn't make competitive power with the 1200cc Ducati.} } | ||
| Jaimec |
Again, it's not that the 1125R CAN'T be tuned, it's that there isn't any organization fronting the MONEY required to do so. If you have a bottomless supply of money, I'm sure Erik would LOVE to talk to you about starting a factory effort in WSBK. | ||
| Blake |
"Just like all the other bikes used in WSBK, they all exist as DOT legal streetbikes." Double talk is fun for some, but I lose interest after so much disingenuous bickering, or maybe it's just plain ignorance. If you think for one second that the machines being raced in WSBK are the same as the machines offered for sale at your local dealership, you are woefully mistaken. Just last year, Michael Jordon asked to purchase a Yoshimura Suzuki GSXR1000 superbike, he was told "You can;t afford it." Wake up. Even comparing the Ducati 1098R versus the 1125R is comparing a racing machine made street legal costing $30K+ versus an $11K street machine that can be raced. "The difference is that the 1125 can't be race tuned to the power level needed to compete because the basic specifications are too far removed from the competitive requirements." Please provide specifics to support that theory. You won't on account of you cannot, on account of you have no idea of the honest facts. Your ignorant pontificating grows tiresome. Please try contributing some actual facts for once that back up your wild assertions. The 180 RWHP is for real in a racing version of the 1125R. My source is 100% absolutely credible and reliable. Why isn't it racing now? As you yourself indicate, homologation is an issue. DUH! Buell built 50 XBRRs just to allow it to enter FX racing here in the AMA. Once Buell and Rotax have it ready to go--which may or may not ever happen; I have no idea--I don't see a 3,000 build of an 1199RR world beater out of the question at all.  Given the success of the 1125R and CR, the bikes would likely sell out in short order even at a hefty price tag. | ||
| Blake |
"Now, the engine is too small for the current WSBK rules." Let's test that theory with some simple mathematics. Your theory is that for the lack of 75cc compared to the twin cylinder limit of 1200cc of engine displacement, the 1125R engine is incapable of providing competitive performance at the WSBK level. Did I get that correct? What percentage are we talking about the 1125cc engine being down compared to 1200cc? 75/1200=6.25% Sorry, given that the bikes are putting down upwards of 200 RWHP, 12.5 HP give or take just won't make much difference at any but the fastest tracks and then with top speeds upwards of 200 mph, the difference in top speed is small. Given that acceleration is wheelie- and/or tire-spin-limited up through 4th gear, the extra HP just isn't that much of a factor. Surprising to some, handling and traction control trumps peak HP in today's WSBK competition. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Sorry, given that the bikes are putting down upwards of 200 RWHP, 12.5 HP give or take just won't make much difference at any but the fastest tracks and then with top speeds upwards of 200 mph, the difference in top speed is small. " 12.5Hp of difference can be the difference finishing between 1st and 15th at a good level of racing. I think this is the case with BMW at the 4 races so far in WSBK. | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake: In an interview I read several years ago with Valentino Rossi and Jeremy Burgess, Jeremy said most tracks have only one long straight, but thirteen or more turns... so which would YOU tune the bike for? Pretty much sums it up in my eyes. Just look at what Ben Spies has been doing in WSBK despite not having the fastest trap speed in the straights. Same goes for Rossi. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Blake: In an interview I read several years ago with Valentino Rossi and Jeremy Burgess, Jeremy said most tracks have only one long straight, but thirteen or more turns... so which would YOU tune the bike for? " This did not help them in 07'. | ||
| Jaimec |
In 07 he was having tire issues. Once they were on the same rubber, it certainly did help. Casey was a LOT faster than Rossi at Laguna Seca... but in the end it didn't help him having better top end, did it? And before you bring up '06... he WOULD have won it had he not blinked in the last race of the season and gifted the championship to Nicky. Hey, he's human after all. |
