| Author | Message | ||
     Rainman1ne |
Tuning aside, will our fuel systems support it? There is a station close by that sells it, it's cheaper and has a higher octane rating. I'm sure some tuning will enable the comp to run it. | ||
| Mikellyjo |
Rainman...I asked this question a while back and lamb basted for it. I think it says somewhere in the owners manual to not use anything over 10% ethanol based gas. | ||
| P_squared |
Owner's manual says don't exceed 10%. "IF" something went wrong w/ the bike & it could be traced back to the fuel being E85, c'est la vie to the warranty. In a practical perspective, I've got to think that warning is there becuase that extra 5% of ethanol is not good for SOMETHING in the system. | ||
| Steeleagle |
It's worse than you think. E85 is 85% alcohol. | ||
| Froggy |
In E85 cars, they run larger injectors than the Gas only counterparts, plus different hoses and linings in the fuel tanks to prevent corrosion that comes with the large amounts of ethanol. Also the computer has to adjust to the different mixture, and in some cases you can take advantage of the higher octane and advance the timing. You can potentially gain horsepower. All it takes is enough time and money. | ||
| Chevycummins |
BIG NO NO! E85 would make the bike run way too lean if it would even run on it in the first place. If you have an E85 car and fill up with it you will notice that the mpg will go down. The flex fuel module senses the percent of E85 mix and will add fuel so it won't run lean and cause melted pistons, valves, etc. That is one of the reasons why the fuel economy suffers when running E85. | ||
| Froggy |
Biggest one is the lower energy content per gallon in ethanol, but yes the higher flow rate of fuel hurts it too. More to life than MPG, and depending on the price difference you can come out ahead economically. | ||
| Dmanchild |
Talking about fuel and such, I work on tugboats pushing av/gas, jet, diesel, regular, premium, and what ever else my company tells me. Well currently there are 40 ships out there just sitting holding about 2million barrels of crude each. that's 80million barrels of crude. all just waiting till the price of fuel to go up and make more profits. Just a little food for thought | ||
| Boltrider |
Froggy nailed it - E85 is too corrosive. Even with a good tune, it would tear up the fuel system. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I just experienced this problem with my Aprilia- I had a fuel pressure regulator gasket replaced under warranty that had been damaged by ethanol. The Piaggio rep said that the European standard is fuel systems which can handle a maximum of 5% ethanol. Florida is currently at 10%, and about to go 20%. His only recommendation was to start using a fuel stabilizer that is made to deal with ethanol (marine-grade I believe). It seems to me the American consumer is being corn-holed with this ethanol bulls hit. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Locally, E85 is now more expensive than regular, while it was significantly cheaper last fall when gas hit $4+ per gallon. As for conventional fuels, I wonder if they're really putting that much ethanol in pump gas now that prices have come back down. When gas was $4/gallon, adding ethanol may have been a legitimate way for them to cut their costs. Maybe not so now. Everybody still has the "contains up to 10% ethanol" stickers on their pumps, but that could mean 0%. | ||
| Froggy |
Only corn-holing being done is by Aprilia for not making their vehicles compatible with the fuel in that region. Most vehicles are slightly different than a counterpart sold in another continent, to deal with local regulations including fueling and emissions and safety. 99% percent of gasoline powered vehicles on the road in the US made since 1990 will handle 10% ethanol with no issue. Even Brazil has been using E25 since the 70s. The Ford Model T was the first commercial production car designed to run on pure E100 ethanol. Aprilia can wake up and get to the 20th century whenever they want.
First time I have heard that, I only knew that 10% was being mandated state wide by the end of 2010.
It is the same as "Minimum Octane Rating". You can get 93 from a 87 pump. Once at my fathers station that happen. We were out of regular, and the gas co dropped the ball on getting us refilled. They ended up sending us a nearby truck that had only 93 left and it was put in our regular tank and sold (to us and customers) at regular price. It says contains up to 10%, because it is not allowed to be and higher, but I highly doubt you are getting anything less than 9%. Bring on the E85 only 1125R. Take advantage of the 104 octane, bump up compression ratio, next thing you know they will be banned in the Daytona 200 for actually being able to beat a Jap 600.  | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Froggy- I think the best way to respond is in a Courtly manner: "The statement above is inaccurate". Rotax builds the engine- not Aprilia, and regardless it's a world-wide issue, not just Aprilia. As I stated, the European manufacturing standard is 5% ethanol compatibility, and since the majority of the world insn't diluting their fuel with ethanol it's our problem- not theirs. Certain factions within the US have created this situation- and American consumers are paying for it. I'm surprised you have fallen for this BS. Corn Ethanol is not the solution- it creates bigger problems. Using food products for fuel is a bad idea. If our government forces ethanol fuel into a market in which it damages a majority of the vehicles, then we are being corn-holed by ourselves. | ||
| Indybuell |
www.change2e85.com Yes it is possible. Maybe not advisable. | ||
| Froggy |
The Rotax powered 1125 handles the ethanol content fine, why not the Aprilia? You said the gasket failed, why aren't they using gaskets that won't corrode so easily? Since in Europe most gas is 5%, how come there have been no real issues here with E10 in other European vehicles?
That is incorrect. Fuels containing ethanol are used in about half of the world. The only non-third world countries I can name that doesn't use any ethanol are Russia and Japan. Countries including Jamaica, Columbia, China, Australia, Thailand have been using it. We are leading the way to viable renewable energy, what is wrong with that?
No it is not, there are better more efficient and cost effective things Ethanol can be produced from. Sugar cane is 5 times more productive, reduces emissions even farther, and uses less land. Ethanol is also made from otherwise useless things including algae and waste beer. Just about anything that grows can be turned into Ethanol. About using food for fuel, only 1.7% of all corn crop goes to ethanol, and last time I checked there was no shortage of corn in America. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Froggy- they've "jigged" you good... I think you'll enjoy this conversation: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=171667&highlight=ethanol | ||
| Froggy |
Good thread, I didn't read all of it, but like most Ethanol debate threads, it is loaded with misinformation. Lots of good points, and I never knew about the land issues in Brazil, but they do not surprise me. | ||
| Ccryder |
E85 is VERY aggressive to certain materials. Back in 90-94' I worked designing fuel rails for the automotive industry. CHrysler wanted an E85 rail. Our normal process was low carbon steel components with copper braze. After testing it was determine that in an accelerated test that the E85 would leach out the copper braze in under 2 years. ENough to cause leaks. Not good to have pressurized fuel on top of a hot engine spraying all over the place. That was with steel rails. We also tried a typical molded plastic type fuel rail with Santoprene tubing between the pods. It failed to hold pressure in even a shorter time frame than the steel rail. There are materials that will hold up to E85 but the common ones in early 90' did not work. Material science can do wonders. So it really doesn't surprise me that that an FPR gasket failed if it was not designed to run E85. Just my $0.02 on the story of E85. Neil S. | ||
| Froggy |
Yea I understand that, but he is running only E10, its nowhere near as corrosive as E85. I can't believe that the gasket failed from that, I do wonder if there was some other factor that we didn't know about. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Now that it's out of warranty, the truth can be told: I frequently ran my M2L on E20 and even E30. The only problem I noted was that I needed to keep the engine partly choked longer during warm up. Positive aspects of E10 to E30 were less pinging due to higher octane and fuel mileage was unaffected, though the enthanol fuel was cheaper. Mileage on the M2L is now around 55,000 with no negative effects whatsoever from the ethanol use. Now if an old carbed Buell did OK on E10 to E30 fuel, the newer fuel injected Buells should wake right up and fly. | ||
| Froggy |
Actually one of the issues with ethanol is cold starting, so some areas don't use it in the winter. Good to hear its been running good for you. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Just got this e-mail, thought you'd find it interesting... New Honda motorcycle features unique fuel injection system Powersports Business Friday March 13, 2009 A Honda subsidiary will begin sales in Brazil of a motorcycle with a flexible-fuel technology that is the first of its kind, according to a press release. The company is planning to sell 200,000 units of the CG150 TITAN MIX starting this month. Honda has not indicated whether that motorcycle will be available in North America in the future. The motorcycle’s Mix Fuel Injection System enables a “flexible mixture” of bio-ethanol and gasoline fuels, the press release stated. Flexible-fuel technology is well advanced in Brazil as 90 percent of new cars sold there have flexible-fuel technology. Great news! But it also proves that current production bikes are not equipped to handle the mixed fuels. | ||
| Buellhusker |
Have you noticed the price of gas has been rising over the past three or four months. Here in Nebraska the cost had gone from $1.29 up to now $1.99 and the cost of oil has dropped from $75 a barrel to $40 a barrel. So it won't be long and the E85 will be the less cost fuel again. | ||
| Usmoto |
I read somewhere last year that ethanol is really substandard when it comes to engines. I'm summarizing to save space and time but the jist of it was that the problem with Ethanol is that it has only 2/3rds of the energy of gasoline and decreases the fuel mileage. You can learn more at this link: http://zfacts.com/p/436.html | ||
| Ponti1 |
I think that's part of why it's controversial and not universally adopted. I actually saw a program on Discovery or Science channel a few months ago where they were going over the process of making the fuel. In that show, they had a segment on the importance of needing to refine production process further. The reason was that they were saying it costs more energy to produce the fuel than the fuel can produce in return. | ||
| Buellhusker |
We have been running 100 proof Alky (menthanol) and ocassionally ethanol in sprint cars for many many years and I can tell you that is it works great. We run upwards of 15:1 compression in the 410 cubic inch motors with no pre detonation problems. In fact many times it is difficult to get the engin up to temp without really leaning it down at start up. Just go to any dirt track sprint car race & you can see for your self the use of straight alky. | ||
| Usmoto |
This is from some info I found online today. It is an article from The American Enterprise by Dr. Robert Zubrin. It is only part of the complete article. "Ethanol contains about 75 percent of the energy of gasoline per gallon, compared to 67 percent for methanol. Both thus achieve fewer miles per gallon than gasoline, but about as many miles per dollar at current prices, and probably many more miles per dollar at future prices". If you want to read the rest of it here's the link. http://domesticfuel.com/2006/02/13/ethanol-vs-meth anol/ Personally speaking, I won't use ethanol unless I have to. I've done a bit of reading over the last year about the topic of gas mileage and how to improve it. I'm no kind of scientist or anything but the what I've read is very interesting. Any reading of this kind always leads to the discussion of different fuel types. It's been shown that by the addition of some chemicals to gasoline, better mpg can be gained. Ethanol wasn't ever on the list as to any kind of benefit. I'm all for just leaving the corn as food. Heck I love my corn on the cobb. I've also read where it's used for corn whiskey.  Please note that my post is not to dispute anyone's use of ethanol or anything else for that matter. We all do what we want and that's how it should be. I'm only throwing in my .02 of how it affects me and how I feel about it. If you'd like to read something very interesting when it comes to gas mileage, go to: http://water4gas.com/ Rock on Buell!!  | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
We all do what we want and that's how it should be. Well, that's the trick- isn't it? I am all for ethanol-blended fuels-for those who want it... I have a problem with not being given a choice. Sell 'em both- let the consumer decide which one they want to use. | ||
| Usmoto |
I'm with you Red...., we should have the choices available. | ||
| Froggy |
Great news indeed, but it proves nothing. You only need flex fuel technology to run high concentrations of Ethanol.
Yes as stated in previous posts, Ethanol blends reduce fuel economy because of the lower energy content, but usually its cheap enough that financially it comes out about the same as gasoline. I love how at that link the guy with the Suburban thought higher octane means better fuel economy!
Nobody will ever say Ethanol improves fuel economy.
Blame the government for that. First they outlawed lead based fuels, which caused MTBE to be used instead. They found out later that it is bad for the environment also and have been switching to Ethanol blends that burn cleaner and do not harm the environment as much. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
So, we agree to disagree. Of course, I'm on the losing end because I don't want ethanol in my fuel- but I have no choice. I do blame the government, but the real enemy here is the corn lobby- they are damaging this country for profit. The facts are that ethanol is causing problems in autos, motorcycles and boats, and I won't respond to any more denials of this- it's true and I have been a victim personally. Walmart now has the Sta-Bil Ethanol Treatment in the motorcycle section, and the guy at West Marine went off when I stopped in to buy a bottle of Star-Tron for my bike- he's pissed it's messing with motorcycles the same way it's screwing up boats. From Fuel-testers.com: Engine Damage & Performance Issues Due to Use of E10 Ethanol-Blends of Gasoline - View List Below- Without necessary precautions and careful monitoring, ethanol alcohol blends of fuel now being widely distributed at public gas pumps may cause unnecessary and unexpected damage to your gas-powered engines. In newer engines E10 oxygenated gasoline can be safely used with only minimal inconvenience, such as decrease in mpg and fuel efficiency. However, many other types of engines are not designed to resist the damaging effects of ethanol (ethyl alcohol) fuel. All gas-powered engines can be adversely affected by alcohol-blends of fuel including automobiles, classic cars, trucks, recreational vehicles, marine engines, motorcycles, lawn equipment, etc. Often the motor damage results from avoidable and unnecessary causes; For example: - Lack of proper E10 sticker labeling at gas pumps, - View state-by-state labeling laws - - Improper blending resulting in E10 gas being sold over the legal limit of 10 percent. - View Alcohol Gas Test Kit - - Use of E10 in engines not designed or resistant to alcohol. (Check your owner's manual). E10 is now being dispensed everywhere in the U.S. due to federal renewable fuel laws and mandates (quotas). Unfortunately, several states still refuse to inform consumers when gas dispensed is oxygenated with alcohol. Until renewable fuel standards (RFS) become more consumer-friendly, with the state and federal laws requiring more careful monitoring at the gas stations and fuel distributors, we encourage your to test fuel for alcohol (link fueltest kit) and familiarize yourself with possible damage and problems that can result from the use of ethanol blends of fuel. Note: The list below does not include all documented damage attributed to E10 gasoline use. We have chosen to include only the most common damage/problems, based on verifiable reports and resources. E10 Parts Damage: Examples of reported damage, determined to be caused by E10 fuel. 1. Wear and damage of internal engine parts. 2. Damage to metal, rubber, and plastic parts of fuel system. 3. Corrosion of metal parts in fuel system and engine. 4. Deterioration of elastomers and plastic parts. 5. Deterioration of non-metallic materials. 6. Fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines. 7. Drying, softening, stretching and/or cracking of rubber hoses, seals and other rubber components. 8. Oxygen sensor damage. 9. Damage or premature disintegration of fuel pump. 10. Carburetor damage, including clogging. 11. Dirty and clogged fuel filters. 12. Clogging and plugging of fuel injectors. 13. Destruction of certain fiberglass fuel tanks. 14. Removal or fading of paint and varnish (both internal and external parts of engine). 15. Piston/bore failure through knock/pre-ignition. 16. Piston ring sticking. 17. Unsuitable ignition timing resulting in ignition failure. 18. Gumming-up of fuel injectors, carburetors, etc. due to release of accumulated deposits in engine from ethanol alcohol's solvent properties. E10 Drivability Issues: 1. Engine performance problems. 2. Hard starting and operating difficulty. 3. Hesitation and lack of acceleration. 4. Stalling, especially at low speeds. Ethanol Gasoline - General Problems/Issues: 1. Phase separation (P/S) of gasoline. 2. Water contamination (W/C) of gasoline. 3. Attract, absorb and hold moisture in fuel tank. 4. Increased occurrence of lean, water-diluted fuel. 5. Vapor lock or fuel starvation. 6. Drop in octane (after water absorption, P/S and W/C occurs). 7. Decreased fuel efficiency and mpg. 8. Decreased life cycle of parts and engine. 9. Decreased shelf life of gasoline. List update in progress 7-26-2008 - Contact Fuel-testers for more information. It's a crime that simply filling up can cause serious damage to your vehicle. It's been an interesting conversation, but I am done here. |
