I'd take the 1 or 2 less horsepower (if that)a carbed bike makes any day to get rid of the off idle runnability/mapping issues these EFI bikes have along with all of the ECM/electrical stuff/crazy wiring that come with it (all EFI motorcycles). My carbed Sporty doesn't cough or sputter at all (like zero) off idle or anywhere else and it just all around runs better than my Buell. Have any of you guys seen the new EFI Sportsters? The wiring on those bikes is insane and really sad to look at. What used to be one of the simplest/cleanest bikes ever made has become an electrical nightmare. Obviously, emission regulations have forced manufacturers to go this route, so we don't have much choice in the matter unless we buy an older bike. Please don't try to convince me that EFI is an improvement for any motorcycle (other than exhaust emissions). I wonder if anyone ten or fifteen years from now will have the desire or the parts to fix one of these EFI bikes once an electrical problem shows up (Buell, Harley or any other bike made for that matter). Probably cost more to replace the electronics than the bike will be worth. Fifty years from now which bike do you think will still be running, the old carbed Sporty or the EFI bike? The same issue applies to classic vs. current cars. Funny how the computer/electrical guys on this forum think that adding more electronics and electrical stuff is always the answer. I've always found the opposite to be true. Absolutely nothing simpler to work on than a CV carb. You could tear one apart and fix it on the side of the road if you had to (not likely, I've never had one fail), can't do that with an fried ECM or bad injector.....I guess that's where the ultimate in electronics.....the cell phone....comes into play.. Fortunately, there is so much other stuff on my Uly that I really like, I'm willing to put up with the cough....cough.....cough off idle. Geez, enough rambling, already...
I would have to agree Danger. I was looking pretty seriously at the Moto Morini and the Binelli Trek, before deciding on the Uly. And if either of those two had any kind of dealer network in the US, my decision for the Uly would have been more difficult.
Yup, it's a sad day for all us old codgers with screw drivers and wrenches. We'll have to trade them in for laptops and EFI programs........ Danger, that there's one of my favorite non-Buell scooters. Love the layout of the headlights on that thing.
Prowler, remind me to give you a tow when your bike won't start because its too cold for the carb. I will never touch a carbed vehicle again, I am done with the poor reliability, imprecise fuel delivery, poor emissions and inability to adapt to current conditions.
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rid of the off idle runnability/mapping issues these EFI bikes have
The few EFI issues the bikes have are due to the EPA. Remap it and you are good to go. It is like re-jetting your EPA compliant carb, except without the fuel economy hit.
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Have any of you guys seen the new EFI Sportsters?
Yep, and just like the DDFI3 Buells, they are smooth as silk.
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Have any of you guys seen the new EFI Sportsters?
Sorry but I got to at least put the facts on the table, what you do with them is your call.
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I wonder if anyone ten or fifteen years from now will have the desire or the parts to fix one of these EFI bikes once an electrical problem shows up (Buell, Harley or any other bike made for that matter)
You make it sound like parts won't exist. You can still get parts for a 1990 RS1200.
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Probably cost more to replace the electronics than the bike will be worth.
How is that any different than say, a leaking gas tank on a rare 30 year old bike, the only replacement you can find is in Russia and its going to cost $150 to ship the thing here.
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Fifty years from now which bike do you think will still be running, the old carbed Sporty or the EFI bike?
Short of a EMP, I would bet my life that the fuel injected bike will work. More complicated, but more reliable. Oh and if it didn't work, a quick check with the wireless internet chip in your head will tell you the battery is dead and to charge it.
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The same issue applies to classic vs. current cars. Funny how the computer/electrical guys on this forum think that adding more electronics and electrical stuff is always the answer.
Classic cars belong in museums and occasional car shows. Sure, take it out for a Sunday cruise once a month, but don't blame me when it just suddenly dies and no trouble codes to work off of where to start fixing it.
At least on modern vehicles, "Hey, system failure, loosing fuel pressure! Pull over in a safe place before you get creamed by the 18 wheeler"
If more electronics aren't the answer, find me a single classic vehicle that is safer, more powerful, does better on gas, pollutes less, and is more reliable than a modern vehicle.
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Absolutely nothing simpler to work on than a CV carb. You could tear one apart and fix it on the side of the road if you had to (not likely, I've never had one fail)
I never had to plug a tire on the side of the road, doesn't mean it will never happen. Your carb can have a total failure while the EFI can go into limp mode to get you home. Hell my mothers 99 Tracker lost a fuel injector and ran (like crap) on 3 cylinders. It still got her home and with my dads help we fixed it in 15 minutes.
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can't do that with an fried ECM or bad injector
Scroll up.
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I'm willing to put up with the cough....cough.....cough off idle. Geez, enough rambling, already...
You don't have to, but if you went carbed you would have to put up with more headaches than its worth.
Classic cars belong in museums and occasional car shows. Sure, take it out for a Sunday cruise once a month, but don't blame me when it just suddenly dies and no trouble codes to work off of where to start fixing it.
At least on modern vehicles, "Hey, system failure, loosing fuel pressure! Pull over in a safe place before you get creamed by the 18 wheeler"
If more electronics aren't the answer, find me a single classic vehicle that is safer, more powerful, does better on gas, pollutes less, and is more reliable than a modern vehicle.
Yeah, but they have no style, no soul, no mojo baby. really cruising around in the new Toyota Venza is never going to be cool compared to the Chevy Nomad. Sure it has it beat in power, economy, safety and comfort... The Nomad wins every time in style and the 'it' factor.
Geez, froggy needs to take a pill. If I didn't know any better, I'd guess he'd never even seen the inside of a CV carb. It's never been too cold for a carb on any car, bike, snowmobile I've ever owned (down to -35 deg. in upper Michigan) The damn battery will puke long before a carb freezes up). So you're saying that if you remap the EFI so that it burns more fuel, i.e. richer mixture, like richening up a carb, (oh damn, what happens to the emissions then???......) It's better than a carb? what?? Is an RS1200 fuel injected...da? My 1200 Sportster gets 50-55 mpg so it can't be puking out that much more pollutants than my Uly which gets 45 mpg. If you think that these new fake/sudo retro muscle cars are pimp'n, (oh, yawn, by the way) I'm obviously conversing with the wrong person, for sure.....(probably drive an Eclipse or Civic....) If you need trouble codes to figure out what's wrong with your ride, you've said it all. (i.e. no computer, no fixie) Have you ever driven a high performance car with carbs? Kid's these days. Your quote: "I am done with the poor reliability, imprecise fuel delivery, poor emissions" etc..... your kidding, right? Up until a year or two ago, harley's had no trouble meeting emissions with carbs, so how is EFI so,so much better in fuel delivery if you have to richen them up to get them to run well???? Let's see how many 2008 model Honda Civics are on the road 30-40 years from now. I know I sure as heck won't want one...... I've got two 40 year old early air cooled VW's in the garage and they are freakin' fast, fun, simple cars to work on, drive and own and both of 'em are running big bore stroker motors with two huge down draft Dellorto carbs which I will never replace with any type of EFI. Cityslicker nailed it regarding classic cars. Own one some day and maybe you'll understand. You're obviously clueless regarding classic vehicles and carburetors.
Saturn, Pontiac... Aren't they going the way of the dodo soon?
Instant collector cars
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Geez, froggy needs to take a pill.
Friendly debate
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If I didn't know any better, I'd guess he'd never even seen the inside of a CV carb.
I have, I can't figure out how the hell they even work.
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It's never been too cold for a carb on any car, bike, snowmobile I've ever owned (down to -35 deg. in upper Michigan)
I am glad I haven't had the luxury of owning many carb vehicles, and it was pure luck in the dead of winter if I was going be able to start without flooding the engine. EFI, just push the button and go.
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So you're saying that if you remap the EFI so that it burns more fuel, i.e. richer mixture, like richening up a carb
Fatten up some parts, slightly lean out others, can't have both on carb.
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oh damn, what happens to the emissions then???......) It's better than a carb?
Yes you can still come out ahead of a carb emissions wise. Hell you could possibly just make adjustments to remove decel popping, and still pass EPA smog tests.
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Is an RS1200 fuel injected...da?
Nope. I was referring to parts availability, that was your concern.
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My 1200 Sportster gets 50-55 mpg so it can't be puking out that much more pollutants than my Uly which gets 45 mpg.
More to the equation than MPG.
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If you think that these new fake/sudo retro muscle cars are pimp'n, (oh, yawn, by the way) I'm obviously conversing with the wrong person
I will be getting a 415hp G8 Sedan soon.
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..(probably drive an Eclipse or Civic....)
I wouldn't be caught dead driving Japanese garbage. I got a Monte Carlo.
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If you need trouble codes to figure out what's wrong with your ride, you've said it all.
They aren't required, but they are a significant help. If the computer points out the problem for you, it cuts diagnostic time significantly.
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Have you ever driven a high performance car with carbs?
None for an extended period of time. My father has a 73 Firebird, I drove it once, it ain't my thing. It was exhausting to drive it, even on the highway. It was my dads first car, thats why we still have it today.
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Up until a year or two ago, harley's had no trouble meeting emissions with carbs
Up till a few years ago regulations were so laxed that you could of put a 1960's dump truck on the test and still passed. They are still pretty relaxed, but getting tighter every few years, hence one the reasons for the switch to the EFI. Catalytic converters are going to be on the way next.
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so how is EFI so,so much better in fuel delivery if you have to richen them up to get them to run well????
You don't have to richen them up to run better, they run fine with the stock mapping, but when you remove legal restraints you can get significant improvement. Same with carb.
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so how is EFI so,so much better in fuel delivery if you have to richen them up to get them to run well????
Hopefully none.
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I've got two 40 year old early air cooled VW's in the garage
Awesome, I would love to see them sometime.
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Own one some day and maybe you'll understand. You're obviously clueless regarding classic vehicles and carburetors.
To be sure, when EFI is working properly a carbureted engine can't touch it for user-friendly operation. To be equally sure I don't need a laptop to diagnose or fix most ANY problem with a carbureted engine that I have worked on professionally for the last 35+ years. There are pros and cons to any engineering endeavor. I once read something like "as complexity increases the mean time between failures decreases". So true.
Froggy, good responses all, and what I would expect from someone brought up in the EFI age (not necessarily bad, just expected). If you ever are in southeast Wisconsin for a Buell homecoming, shoot me an e-mail and I'll buy you a beer (or soda) and give you a ride in a fast old Beetle (with some huge nasty gas smelling carbs on it). You might find religion......
Hey, Old Guys! Remember when Harley first went to Electronic Ignition and all the Hardcores were pulling them out and putting points? The logic was that you can set points on the side of the road, if they close up; bit if the electronic ignition fails, you have to get the bike towed. My '78 Superglide had electronic ignition, and it never gave me any trouble in 72,000 miles, and I never had to adjust the points or set the timing. Riding became a little more "User-Friendly". Fuell injection is here. Carbs are dead. It's called progress. Learn the new technology, it is easier to tune a FI engine than to play with jets, needles, float levels, slide cut aways, etc. The hardest part is learning how to do it. but it's knowledge worth having.
Chalk me up in the EFI camp. Here's why....true life example.
1995 Ducati Monster 900: -Rough running, hard starting. -Pull carbs, clean them, reinstall them (having to damn near dissemble the bike to do this each time) -Problem still exists -Buy rebuild kit -Remove carbs, replace seals, jets, diaphram, etc....and re-install (again!) -Bike still runs like $hit -Purchase $800 set of flat slide carbs (with no choke function) -Remove stock carbs, install flatslides. -Bike runs better, but still not right -Go to dealer for dyno tune -Remove carbs, rejet, and reinstall (again!!!) -Bike runs great! -Have to stuff towel in airbox to start bike when it's cold (Arrrrgh!!!), but it runs GREAT! -Oh now....riding at higher altitude now...bike running too rich. -Sell old a$$ antique of a bike for something with fuel injection
Time spent: too many hours to count Money spent: $1000+ dollars (on a $3000 bike!)
2006 Buell Ulysses: -Install Race ECM -Purchase ECM Spy cable for $50 and download FREE software -Do square idle mod to fine tune
Time spent: Less than an hour Money spent: Maybe $300...could have been $50 if I'd have just reprogrammed the stock ECU and disabled the exhaust valve
So...tell me again, why are carbs better?
I had the same experience with my KLR650. Damn carbed bike...depending on the weather, the thing either ran great, or it had some sort of issue...worse if it was really humid outside or hot.
Suzuki GSX-R600....first year of FI for that bike. Add power commander. Flawless!
Yamaha FJR1300....add power commander. Flawless!
Kawasaki ZR7-S...carbed. Very lean. Had to purchase jet kit. Remove carbs. Install jets. Drill out idle circuit plugs (without damaging the screw underneath), shim needles....pray that it's right or else you'll have to do it all over again.
Only FI bike I ever had that had a big flaw in it was my BMW 1150RT. It surged like crazy. I ended up putting in a European ECU program in it, and it helped, but still surged. Crashed it before I had a chance to remap it or put a Techlusion box on it.
Carbs are to fuel injection like the abacus is to a computer.
Yeah, you can do calculations on an abacus....but it's hard as hell, only a few people who know the black art can do it, and it's a SLOW process.
Poorly calibrated EFI is no different than a poorly jetted carb. I bet most of us have owned examples of both. My '96 Honda XR400 had horrible carb jetting, and I never got it right. My '95 KTM 620 came ultra-lean to be street legal, but putting the dirt version jets in made it fantastic (for competition use only, naturally).
I will concede that the laws of physics make it less likely that a carb bike will suffer from abrupt on/off throttle calibration problems we sometimes see on bikes (BMW and Buell most famously). My '06 Uly is definitely not the best calibrated EFI I have owned (my '99 Ducati ST2 was), but it is quite good once you get it warmed up and moving.
EFI is just easier to screw up, because the calibrator can (try to) make the engine do things it really does not want to do. We had these problems in the 80's-90's when diesels went electronic, and saw higher warranty on electronic versions than on the mechanical injection versions. Part of this was the slightly higher power (done at marketing insistence to justify a higher price), but some was inexperienced calibrators putting in programs that asked the engine to do unnatural things (like peak torque 500rpm lower than the mechanical version).
Of course, we eventually learned how to set our calibration rules, and life improved, since we could now do things that no mechanical system could (shut off half the cylinders, much better cold starting, fancy double injection strategies, etc).
I like 'em both, when done properly. I admit that I am not quite sure about embracing EFI for a dirt bike just yet. EFI did do great things for snowmobiles, though.
I love nasty aircooled VW's, yes I know the water thumpers are more advanced yadda yadda, but given a stack of bills, I would put one of those classics in the garage before even considering a new 'Beetle'
(got pulled over for doing 135mph in my 66 Bug, judge threw it out because the officer wasnt present and he didnt think a VW could go that fast)
I sold my Saturn for a Saab. I guess GM hates me. Or I'm a chronically cheap bargain hunter and they can't turn a sustainable profit on me
The Saab has a CAN bus with everything instrumented and controlled. It made me really nervous at first, but the frequent error codes (i.e. Front Headlight Out) on the SID ("Saab Infotainment Display") LCD are really growing on me.
The CAN bus is so advanced, you can plug a controller into it and have it drive an IPOD and control it with the stereo buttons (FF or RR) and show the songs titles on the SID.
It tells me when a connector falls off, or when a vacuum hose cracks, whatever. It makes a fairly complicated turbo charged motor very simple and livable.
Its quite a shock going from that to my 85 KLR-250... The only pro with that primitive technology is that tons of stuff can be broken and you don't even know it. It gives the appearance that things are more reliable... for a while, until the snowball gains momentum, and then you are trying to fix 5 simultaneous and interrelated but different problems...
My XB9 seems to have nailed the "be as simple as possible, but no simpler" sweet spot. No water cooling, simple and straightforward fuel injection, two cylinders, etc.
Just my opinion, but I'd rather deal with a little abrupt on/off throttle than have to deal with EVER removing, rejetting, installing, and fiddling with carbs.
Of course, with a carb you have to drain the float bowls for extended storage. Be sure you don't use fuel with ethanol either...it dries the seals (not good for FI either I might add....but more harmful to carbs as the fuel sits in them).
You also have to re-jet for altitude changes.
Don't forget the choke. Pull it on....and don't forget to turn it off or you'll have fouled plugs unless you have a fine steed like my little $1900 Kymco scooter....electric choke!
I've got a friend who has an old Ninja ZX-6R and when we ride up at high altitude, his bike puffs black smoke from time to time....and I enjoy passing him on my EFI bike who's ECU has adjusted the mixture for the right Air/Fuel ratio.
I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm a computer guy. I make my living that way. I have had a computer since I was 10 years old...way back in 1982. They pay my mortgage. I love 'em.
Humm....I just thought of something. I probably should sync the throttle bodies on my 600. Now, where are my carb sticks? LOL!
This vehicle up there with the BMW Meagamoto on the Big Dave ‘Most Desirable Motorcycles’ Shelf.
It’s quite a weird looking unit but it doesn’t care. Bulbous headlights in canisters on either side of a beak might not work on a lot of motorcycles, but the Mother of all Ohlins hanging off the back, Marzocchi upside down forks with 50mm stems and 190mm of wheel travel, the tasty Excel rims, serious bash plate, the Verlicchi high strength steel tubular trellis frame and the overall demeanour of the rest of the machine tell you that this is one is all about doing the business. ‘Enduro Veloce’ the factory calls it.
It tips the scales at 198kg dry and the detuned Bialbero CorsaCorta engine develops 86.5kw (118hp) @ 8,500rpm and 102 Nm (10.4 kg-m) of torque @ 6750 rpm. (How am I doing there, Ed?)
It gets along.
That monster Ohlins single shock, with separate tank is preload, spring height, rebound and compression adjustable. It offers 200mm wheel travel to the cast aluminium swingarm and it soaked up all of the test loop conditions admirably.
I left the Sarge on the seal and punted the Granpasso up some marble strewn side roads with great interest.
Even without properly tuning the three way adjustable front end it proved neat and tidy and rather easy to get the Metzler Tourance shod rear wheel lit up. The Front Tourance is a 110/80 ZR 19 and the rear is a 150/70 ZR 17 and they were sweet on the tarmac and ‘not-knobbies’ on the dirt roads.
I was just sweet on the bike to tell the truth. My only gripe was I found it pretty easy to stall after coming off the gas. Once aware it was OK if kept spooled up.
Apart from that everything worked exceptionally well. A dream to punt through the twisties, wheelies on demand, light, chuckable, very comfortable for a tall man (870mm saddle height) and with a full inventory of the names you’d want on any component wish list.
The factory claims the 25 litre fuel tank will give a range of over 300km and the saddle felt like it would be good for several few tankfuls in a day. The small screen has some adjustability whilst on the move too.
Eighty seven degrees doesn’t make smoothest vee twin, nor does it shake like some others, but it is one of the most potent engines in an ADV style bike. It has simply fabulous punch and corner exiting drive.
. Fortunately, there is so much other stuff on my Uly that I really like, I'm willing to put up with the cough....cough.....cough off idle. Geez, enough rambling, already...
