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Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 10:58 pm: | 
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BMW has to take the conventional route because they're not doing the kind of down and dirty real racing work that Buell is doing.
They have to take advantage of the work others have done and copy those ideas because they want to jump in at the top level rather than working their way up as Buell is doing.
Wow, I thought I was engaged in an intelligent conversation until this statement... you're not really serious, are you?
Search this website and you'll find photos of German and Italian Race Teams running dual discs, and you'll find a pic of Crevier himself on an 1125R with the radiators rotated 90 degrees from the stock position. ZTL is a great brake set-up, but if you think a WSBK team would try and run them, well, you'd probably also believe the statement highlighted above, too.
I would love to see Buell field a factory WSBK team, but Buell does not even have a factory race team at all. If they did, I guarantee it would not be an 1125R- and if they were smart they would do what BMW is doing and design a race bike first, then make a street version (like Ducati and Aprilia).
As far as race development is concerned, BMW probably has more experience in this area than Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati and Aprilia combined. |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 11:06 pm: |
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Finally a sensible poster. However, Ilmberger does make carbon fiber ZTL's now!
BMW, are no fools and they gave thought to their options. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:23 am: |
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Wow, I thought I was engaged in an intelligent conversation until this statement... you're not really serious, are you?
Search this website and you'll find photos of German and Italian Race Teams running dual discs, and you'll find a pic of Crevier himself on an 1125R with the radiators rotated 90 degrees from the stock position.
You start with an ad-hominem attack and then present information that isn't relevant and isn't even completely true.
80-90% of the races and bikes we're talking about are running ZTL's. The primary modifications are chain drive and bodywork. Many even ran with stock pipes.
Hockenheim:
French Pro-Twins:
Canadian Superbike:
Canadian Thunder:
Moto-ST:
Willow:
And I'm well aware of Crevier's radiator experiment. If you can find the photo, you'll see that I'm the one who posted it. You'll also see that it wasn't rotated 90 degrees (at least not around the axis that would have made it more "conventional"), but looked more like just a larger, custom job.
. . . and if you read the info following that photo, you'll find that he only tried it very briefly (I can't remember for sure, but I think he may have only tried it in practice and never raced it. He quickly went to the flexi-glass bodywork with standard radiator and cut outs:
The fact that some teams have tried some variations to the standard set-up is completely irrelevant to the primary topic. Racers fiddle. That's what they do. |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:32 am: |
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God damn Elvis, yer funny.  |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:40 am: |
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Let's keep our eye on the key point:
My Premise: The Buell 1125R platform is a competent platform that - with a more powerful, race-designed engine and money and race expertise - can run with the Ducati 848/1098/1198 platform and other top platforms.
Opposing Premise: The Buell 1125R is not nearly as capable as other platforms (such as the Ducati 848/1098/1198 platform) and would need radical modification (other than just increased power) to be competitive.
As evidence to support my premise, I have offered the roughly 30-40 races in which the Buell platform has raced against the Ducati (and other top platforms).
In those races, the Buell has either been dramatically underpowerd or equal in power to the Ducati (and other platforms) and it has run right with them - with a variety of riders on a variety of tracks.
That provides me with convincing evidence that the platform is sound.
I have yet to hear anyone offering real evidence disputing that point.
Is the 1125R ready to jump into WSBK? Of course not. They would need more power and money as I have said all along. If you agree with that point, then you don't disagree with me.
You can insult me and call me a fan-boi all you want, but if you want to actually argue, facts would be useful. |
Hellgate
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:53 am: |
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Elvis - I'm not trying to dog pile, but for the various races series' that you cite what do the rules say about modifications to brakes, exhausts, etc.? Even at the local club level there a limits to what can be done. Stock vs. SS vs. Formula, etc. Perhaps in those classes mods couldn't be made, or at the time there weren't any aftermarket options available. I mean we are just getting a few better exhausts to market now, not too much last summer.
So much is rider too. I mean you could put my ass on the best WSBK and I'd finish dead last.
Thanks for posting all of the great photos! 
(Message edited by hellgate on February 26, 2009) |
Mainstreamer
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 09:01 am: |
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"Is the 1125R ready to jump into WSBK? Of course not. They would need more power and money as I have said all along."
Elvis, your enthusiasm is refreshing... good going man!!
One might be able to say the same for my KLR.... with more power and money it could do anything. Yep, if pigs had wings they could fly! |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 09:03 am: |
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Hellgate, I think the biggest problem with WSBK will be the limited engine modifications allowed and that's why I've been harping "engine, engine, engine".
Buell would need an homologated engine for WSBK and, unfortunately those limits are going up (I believe it's at 4000 now - pretty tough for a company that sells 10,000 bikes a year). BMW's big advantage is they know with their sales volume they'll be able to sell the minimum number of homologation bikes without much problem.
In Canadian Superbike, Crevier was allowed unlimited engine modifications (while mainaining stock bore and stroke) so he had a lot of freedom that they wouldn't have in WSBK (but even with that, Crevier only went from about 130 HP at the beginning to 150 HP at the end - against 180 HP competition).
It will be very interesting to see what Shawn Higbee can do in AMA Superbike. According to his blog, he'll be running a stock 1125R for the first couple races, but he hints he may be able to get some improvements as the season goes on.
That will be a big step. If Buell and Rotax can get him the power he needs in AMA Superbike and eventually homologate those modifications for WSBK, the idea wouldn't be so crazy anymore.
. . . but I stand by my mantra: "engine, money, engine, money, engine, money . . . "
That's what they need.
The low finishing position I expect for Shawn will be because he's down 70 HP, not because there are problems with the platform.
(Message edited by elvis on February 26, 2009) |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:22 am: |
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WSBK allows exemptions for small manufacturers AND if the they sell 1500 one year and 1500 of the same exact bike next year, they are already in compliance. |
Hellgate
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:24 am: |
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Very good points and thanks for the insight. I don't really follow roadracing anymore. Like everyone else here, I assume, I hope Higbee has a great season and is able to surprise us all, it would be great. We'll know soon enough! |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:01 am: |
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Thanks Clark. I remember it was going from 1000 to something like 3000 or 4000. But from what you've posted, it sounds like they could sell the 3000 over two years.
. . . still, that's a lot of 1195RR's.
They'd have to keep the price well below the 1098R. I'd think they'd have to try to keep the price in the low 20's to sell enough to qualify. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:41 am: |
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I don't follow it and could care less about racing but still predict that Buell will do some amazing things and be a major name in motorcycle racing.
I have no facts but I have an excellent track record.
 |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:50 am: |
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They don't need to sell 1200rr bike with the trickest components. They could easily have 2 versions = one without Ohlins/Race ECM/Race Muffler/Magnesium Wheels/Race Pads, etc.
If Buell wants to be in WSBK, the will have to discontinue the 1125r (see KTM) and only produced fully faired 1200RR's. A stock version could easily be priced at current MSRP. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:58 am: |
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Clark, in the particular case of Buell, I think the issue will be the engine. Not only would maximizing the displacement be nice, but they'll likely need some higher quality engine components to get the kind of power out of the engine they'll need.
Fortunately, the AMA rules (for now) allow some of the kind of modifications they'll need without having those modifications homologated (the Japanese teams complained that they needed those modifications for their engines to be "durable" enough).
So my understanding is that they can make some of the logical engine upgrades for AMA Superbike that would help get the needed power.
. . . but unless I mis-understand the WSBK rules, they wouldn't be allowed to modify as much for WSBK and would need to homologate that engine.
You're right though. Suspension etc. can be upgraded to some extent for WSBK. That's why I'm so fixated on the engine. |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 12:24 pm: |
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No displacement changes are permitted for WSBK. Bikes must also have the exact same aero dynamic qualities as street versions. The chain conversion kit could also be a problem. Also Buell's willingness to pay the homologation fee to FIM. WSBK has made accomodations for Ducati and Aprilia (but they are both Italian like WSBK). I'm not sure they helped BMW. We'll see how they respond to KTM, as they are the best analog to Buell.
AMA will be true test of the bike.
TBH, Buell doesn't need that' much HP. Ducati won the title with the 999 having very low HP (about 160 in race trim).
Assuming Buell can get to 180 RWHP, they'd be fine at nearly every track. The AVERAGE speed for the fastet track is less than 115mph. Given that Buell can carry more corner speed and accelerates at least as hard (high torque) as IL4's, it will be ok. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 02:54 pm: |
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All Buell would have to do is sell a homologation special with chain drive and an 1199cc engine to get around WSBK regulations. |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 02:55 pm: |
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All Buell would have to do is sell a homologation special with chain drive and an 1199cc engine to get around WSBK regulations.
Yeah, all they have to do is sell 3000 of those. Easy as pie. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 03:01 pm: |
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I'd think they'd have to try to keep the price in the low 20's to sell enough to qualify.
I see a RR model with engine upgrades mainly in the mid-teens and an "trick" RR for a hair less than 20 |
Clarkjw
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 03:07 pm: |
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Yes, having Rotax bore out is nothing. Hiring a good electronics tech who's worked on Magnetti Marelli is 150k. Getting Ilberger to provide his CF molds for full fairing is < 20k. http://www.ilmberger-carbon.de/DSC07160.jpg
The stock version wouldn't need many other updates.
If FIM allows for a chain coversion kit exemption, all other relevant upgrades are allowed as part of the racing rules. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 04:00 pm: |
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Here's your photo, Elvis... it looks like 90 degrees from stock to me:
Somehow, this thread has turned into a pissing match- and there's no reason for it. We are all Buell enthusiasts, and hope to see Buell be successful on the race track. The reality is, though, that Buell builds street bikes, and they're designed to be unconventional- not for racing sake, but because they choose to be different. The successful race bikes do not use similar equipment because they don't want to do R&D, they use what has been proven on the track. If Buell had a race team, and if they decided to race WSBK, they would build a bike capable of winning (like BMW is doing). I think your enthusiasm for the 1125R is refreshing, but it was never intended to, or capable of, being a contender in WSBK.
I am confident that 1125R's will be successful in AMA, Canada, and Europe in their respective series- but WSBK is a different level. Honestly, if the 1125R was such an amazing platform- there would be teams interested in running them in WSBK... but I don't think that's gonna happen.
Buell is in the catbird seat- if their products win in racing, they get the credit, and if they don't- Buell doesn't build race bikes (or have a race team, for that matter). I would love for Buell to get serious about racing, and I'm confident they'd be successful- but they don't have to... they're better off in their current position. If the number of people who share your enthusiasm continues to grow, Buell might take notice and give serious thought to creating a factory race team with dedicated racing motorcycles. I'm all for it- but it's not reality... yet. |
No_rice
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 04:21 pm: |
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that is an interesting picture thats for sure. whos bike was that? and any idea on the setup they used. im sure its probably one off. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 07:42 pm: |
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The reason it ain't gonna happen is that Buell isn't fielding a factory team. You think someone just woke one day and said: "I think I want to race an unknown Aprilia model!!"
Sure would be nice if the mothership got behind Buell in the world racing stage. Maybe it's just me, but I think it would be a bigger feather in Harley's cap to field a winning BUELL team, than to field a winning MV Agusta team.
And it would make up in some small way for the way Erik was "dissed" in the days of the VR1000. Think "Fuel in the Frame" was an idea Erik came up with in 2003?? Read "25 Years of Buell" for the whole story... |
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