| Author | Message | ||
     Mainstreamer |
World Superbike season 2009 begins this weekend. Shaping up to be the best motorsport to watch. How awesome will it be? Check out the fastest test times: 1. Michel Fabrizio (Ducati) 1:32.19 2. Noriyuki Haga (Ducati) 1:32.30 3. Ben Spies (Yamaha) 1:32.36 4. Max Neukirchner (Suzuki) 1:32.59 5. Yukio Kagayama (Suzuki) 1:32.78 6. Troy Corser (BMW) 1:32.93 7. Jonathan Rea (Honda) 1:32.96 8. Tom Sykes (Yamaha) 1:33.10 9. Carlos Checa (Honda) 1:33.3 10. Ruben Xaus (BMW) 1:33.53 11. Ryuichi Kiyonari (Honda) 1:34.0 Wouldn't it be nice to see a Buell in the mix?? | ||
| Hellgate |
Watch those new BMWs this year, if they stay together, with Corser and Xaus as pilots they could really do some damage to the Japanese bikes. As the saying goes, "Ducs are Ducs." (Duke is Duke). | ||
| Chadhargis |
I love to see Xaus ride, but he's got the same problem I do. He's too damn big. You've got to me damn near horse jockey size to race bikes these days. | ||
| Brapbrapbrap |
Here he is on one of the smallest bikes you can get.  | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Wouldn't it be nice to see a Buell in the mix?? ABSODAMNLUTELY!... however, to be competitive Buell would need to be less "different" and more "conventional" when choosing racing components. Additionally, imagine the racing budget if it were supported by large sales numbers of Buell models actually marketable to the majority of m/c enthusiasts. Maybe someday... | ||
| No_rice |
hmm, i find it odd someone basically saying to win you have to conform. i always thought the innovators were the ones coming up with the new ways to make power or better handling or better brakes... if your just the same as everyone else, wheres your winning advantage? | ||
| Mainstreamer |
This guy knew how to be different, fast, and make it beautiful. He was a winner!! http://www.britten.co.nz/history/history.html | ||
| Jaimec |
Ducati is doing just fine with a 1200cc twin. I see no reason why the 1125R engine couldn't be punched out to 1199cc and entered. BMW is a big disappointment to me. After years of interesting innovation on their street bikes in terms of engine management, suspension, braking, etc. when it came time to build a race bike, they built a GSXR... Me, I'm pulling for Yamaha. GO BEN!!! | ||
| Clarkjw |
BMW's engine has finger followers and can make any power curve it likes up to 20k revs. Not a GSX-R. They also will boatloads in engine management/electronics. Yamaha(Spies) or Ducati(Haga) will take the title. | ||
| Hellgate |
Innovation is good to a point, but different for the sake of being different can be very expensive to a racing team. Honestly if Ohlins and Brembo work well, let them be the innovators of their specialty. A team needs to focus on being a team and preparing the rider and the machines for race day, not innovating, that is done years ahead of time. I agree fully with Junkie, it would be great to see Buell in there but the cost is simply too high for a small company. If I'm not mistaken Kawasaki dropped out of MotoGP this year, simply too much cost for the times. And like any sport, so much of being successful has to do with the athlete, not the technology. Lance Armstrong could ride a radio flyer tricycle and still kick ass in the Tour. | ||
| Court |
>>>He was a winner!! Explain to us why. I'm not taking you to task but there are decidedly differing camps. I always enjoy hearing folks opinions. | ||
| Elvis |
At the moment, we know of one example of a Buell racing at a superbike level and that was Steve Crevier in Canadian Superbike last year. In that series, we know that he was 40-50 HP below the competition (and we know that for a fact from post-race dyno runs) and yet he finished the season at #7 in points. Based on that anectdotal evidence, I'd say that all those quirky Buell things must be doing something right and it's just a matter of more power from the engine (rather than improvements to the chasis, brakes etc.) and money for a full scale effort that are the primary barriers between Buell and the top classes. Shawn Higbee will be racing AMA Superbike this year, so we'll see how he does - on a shoestring budget and down 50-60 (70 or more?) HP against the competition. If he can hold his own, that will speak well for the future of Buell racing at the top levels. (Message edited by elvis on February 25, 2009) | ||
| Mainstreamer |
"Explain to us why. I'm not taking you to task but there are decidedly differing camps. I always enjoy hearing folks opinions." SEE MY POST ABOVE..... Also, I know of no one that has seen his motorcycle and was not in awe at the beauty of that creation. He overcame dyslexia and was able to design, engineer, and build a winning bike with many advanced features for that period. Please tell me about the other school of thought. I want to hear the reasons he would not be viewed a winner. | ||
| Edmbueller |
Elvis - I had the pleasure this winter of talking to Crevier for an entire weekend at the motorcycle show in my city ( I was working the Buell booth) and then I was at Trev Deeley's service department last week talking to the race team technicians....they will be underpowered again this year, but only by about 20hp....should be a VERY exciting season in Canadian Superbike.. | ||
| Elvis |
Edm, Cool! Thanks! That's actually the first confirmation I've heard that he'll be racing again this season. *edit - I notice you imply Deeley will be racing, but will they have Crevier?* By the way, the DVD of last season is available on the Canadian Superbike Website for anybody who's interested. I ordered mine but haven't received it yet. (Message edited by elvis on February 25, 2009) | ||
| Brapbrapbrap |
No_rice Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 11:50 am: hmm, i find it odd someone basically saying to win you have to conform. i always thought the innovators were the ones coming up with the new ways to make power or better handling or better brakes... if your just the same as everyone else, wheres your winning advantage? True, but you have to be hunting the right trail. History is littered with attempts at new and different only a few out of thousands of attempts will survive as there is a con for every pro and vs versa. Different to be better, not different to be different. | ||
| Mainstreamer |
How different do you want to be.... or do you want to succeed? Take a look, here's 'different': http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090225/CARNEWS/9 02259987 | ||
| Elvis |
There seems to be a disconnect between theory and reality in this thread. Time after time, in every race the 1125R has run, it has gone up against much more expensive, much more refined, much more powerful competition and it has CONSISTENTLY finished at or near the top of the field. From Hockenheim to French Pro-twins to Canadian Superbike to Canadian Thunder to Moto-ST to Willow springs etc. etc etc. we have seen the 1125R beat bikes it shouldn't have. Can anyone name me a single race in which an 1125R has raced against big-time competition and not come out at or near the top? There are two, simple reasons that Buell would not be able to compete in WSBK at this moment: 1. They haven't yet produced a maximized output version of the Rotax engine designed for competition at that level. 2. They haven't yet devoted the money required to win at that level. That's it. Those are the reasons. It has nothing to do with being "different". Don't agree? Back up your statement with real race results that show the 1125R can't be competitive. Just saying they can't compete because they're different doesn't make it true and there isn't any evidence to back that sort of statement up. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
By the way, the DVD of last season is available on the Canadian Superbike Website for anybody who's interested. I ordered mine but haven't received it yet Yes! I was hoping to see some of the races, but this will have to do. Thanks for the heads up. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Don't know if it has been mentioned, but Crevier placed on the podium (3rd) in the first Canadian Superbike race of last season--against machines that would be considered 1000cc Superstock in the AMA. Absolutely amazing stuff. | ||
| Mainstreamer |
Elvis, in theory, do you believe the 1125R would be competitive in WSBK. C'mon, share your theory here.  Remember, winning on sunday = sales on Monday! | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
From Hockenheim to French Pro-twins to Canadian Superbike to Canadian Thunder to Moto-ST to Willow springs etc. etc etc. we have seen the 1125R beat bikes it shouldn't have. All impressive results- but the reality is none of them are comparable to WSBK. Additionally, I believe some of the European 1125's are running "conventional" upgrades like dual-discs up front, and the Canadians have relocated the radiators to a more "conventional" position. The 1125R is an unconventional, great-handling, controversially styled, performance street bike, which is fine- but not the best platform on which to base a WSBK race bike. Just look at what BMW has done with their "unconventional ways" after deciding to make a serious attempt at WSBK- they're out the window. In reality, if someone were to campaign an 1125R in WSBK, after squeezing a lot more power out of the Rotax mill, installing top-shelf suspension, changing the final drive (and swing arm?), changing the cooling system, changing/adding bodywork and who knows what else... you probably would not even recognize it unless it had Buell emblazoned on the side. For what it is, the 1125R is doing an outstanding job on the track- and I'm sure we'll be seeing even better things to come. But, in reality, WSBK is a totally different world, and it has the bar set higher than an 1125R is designed to reach. Otherwise I agree with you- in theory. | ||
| Elvis |
Mainstreamer, with a powerful enough engine and enough money to support an effort . . . absolutely. How can I support that? Ducati wins in WSBK. When horsepower matched 1125R's have gone up against horsepower matched Ducati's (such as in Moto-ST and Canadian thunder) the Buell's have run right with them. Why then, is it not logical to assume that with similar power and similar team support the Buell's couldn't run with Ducati in WSBK? Additionally, when nearly stock 1125R's have run against much more powerful $40,000 1098R Ducati race bikes with traction control etc. the Buells have generally beat them. Look at Hockenheim, look at what Shawn Higbee has been doing against 1098R's etc. etc. etc. The simple fact is there is no evidence that Ducatis dominate Buells in head to head competition that would support the idea that Ducati makes a markedly more competent race-bike. Particularly when you consider the cost, power and support advantages Ducati generally has over Buell when they go head to head. I'm willing to listen to any evidence - sighting head to head competition - that anyone can offer to the contrary. I follow these things fairly closely and I don't know of any firm examples of Ducati's superiority. | ||
| Elvis |
Redbuelljunkie, Nearly all of the Buells I've been citing use ZTL brakes and I'm not aware of anyone relocating the radiator. Some are running with cut-outs to allow more flow past the radiators, but they're still in the same position. | ||
| Elvis |
. . . and at the moment, BMW has won exactly the same number of WSBK races as Buell. . . . while winning far fewer "lesser races". | ||
| Elvis |
Here's a concept to think about: BMW has to take the conventional route because they're not doing the kind of down and dirty real racing work that Buell is doing. They have to take advantage of the work others have done and copy those ideas because they want to jump in at the top level rather than working their way up as Buell is doing. | ||
| Dentguy |
Additionally, when nearly stock 1125R's have run against much more powerful $40,000 1098R Ducati race bikes with traction control etc. the Buells have generally beat them. Maybe you should say the 1125R rider beat the 1098R rider. Sorry, but the 1125R just doesn't compare to the 1098R. | ||
| Elvis |
As I've said, I'm open to evidence to support the superiority of Ducati. Show me the evidence and I'll concede. | ||
| Ponti1 |
The Duc is a great bike, no question! I would certainly like to see the 1125 tear her pants off this year though... If a 12K (retail) bike can even compete with the 40K bike, I'll vote that the 12K bike won in a head-to-head. After all, when I can race you and have two spares for the cost of your one bike, I'm certainly ahead of the game. | ||
| Clarkjw |
When the 1125R can do 1.25's at Laguna Seca or 1.50's at Miller Motorsports Park (Salt Lake City) then this debate is valid. Please somebody show me proof it can lap even 1 second off the WSBK pace. Clearly, many posters in here aren't avid race watchers. I've given you two hugely popular American circuits. Find the fastest lap times and I will pay pal you $100 if Buell is on pace. I think 1125r would stack up evenly next to the 1198 if it were bored out and ELECTRONICALLY CONFIGURED (which it's obviously not) to perform in hyper competitive races. It handles well and has a near perfect torque curve, but the suspension needs updates and better setup and it's power/FI are sub-par. Aerodynamics would also suffer at WSBK pace. I know we're all Buell fanbois (we bought the bike). Let's not lie to ourselves. A competitive bike can be run in WSBK without factory support. The '25r just isn't there If any of Valentino Rossi/Nicky Hayden/Ben Spies/Colin Edwards/Kevin Schwantz/Troy Baylis/Loris Capirossi/Shinya Nakano/Troy Corser/anybody that's won in WSBK or raced in MotoGP rides both rides and just one votes Buell or if Buell can even podium in BSB, that would decide it for me. The 1125r is a street bike. The 1200RR, could be another story. } |
