| Author | Message | ||
     No_rice |
ok, i have some questions about things that dont seem to make any sense to me. we will start off with the fact obviously im pretty pro drummer because i have had a few pipes over the years and now all i run is drummers. why? because i have great luck with them, apparently im not alone in that. so take whatever i say however you want. i read things about how someone saying the bike feels amazing. power everywhere and yanks the front wheel easier than before. saying how pleased he is with its performance. then i read someone bashing him and saying how glad they are thats a scientific way of deciding if its good or not. i dont remember anyone saying its scientific, but i do know thats how most consumers decide what works and what doesnt. its hard to have something that produces good results for a consumer, and have it be a big pile of crap at the same time. it just doesnt work that way usually i find it odd that the jardine and the d&d come out and no one really bashes on them. neither have ever really been known for being that great of a pipe though. the d&d is amazingly loud(if you like that) and has a big midrange kick, but never seemed to produce much other than that. the jardine has always had some power dips, but its main down fall has always been rattling apart or blowing apart over time. but no one really mentioned any of this stuff. but some jump on a pipe by a producer that has a very proven track record of great quality and performance/sound, saying there is no way it could possiably be any good. then i have seen some mention the collector and how it changes the length of the headers so they are no longer the same equal in length in relation to each other. how do you figure? i look at that collector and the y part sure seems pretty equal in length to me. thats the part that would have to be different to change the header length. once it combines there is no way you CAN change the length individually. that would be like saying the y part on the stock exhaust changes the headers to an unequal length. or for that matter the TM exhaust since it has a very similar collector set up. funny how no one questioned that one and it sure looks like the y has 2 different length pipes. the one that connects to the rear cylinder seems longer and has a little different bend then the one connecting to the front cylinder. maybe its just the pics?! but why not question it incase it is? im not trying to cast much doubt on another system because honestly i dont care. im just curious as to why the completely different reactions to 2 pipes. all of that testing for that pipe has also been done on a dynostar or some such dyno. ive never even seen one of those. everyone i know of uses a dynojet including us here at my shop. on top of the fact that there is extensive tuning being done to that bike. but again no one really seems to care that things are not being compared apples to apples. doesnt make alot of sense to me. if someone is so damn worried about tunning their bike for the pipe go right ahead. as i have said before, in all honesty i will probably do it at some point on mine also. just because thats the way i am. but also as i have said before it will be AFTER people alot smarter than me when it comes to that stuff have ACTUALLY figured it completely out. even though people try and tell me some have i find that hard to believe given some of the things i read by some of those people on this board. if there isnt even a 100% consensus on how much the ecm can adjust or even what its max readings can be how can it all be figured out. but again, i couldnt tune a bike like this if my life depended on it. i do know that there are a couple i would trust to tell me when that time is. Al Lighton spent alot of hours tuning on my XB9 and Terry(Buelldyno_guy) even had a hand in it, all at the exhaust shoot out. i do know that my SS drummer and their tuning made my 9 a force to be recond with in the xb catagory and its never been touched since then(how long ago was that again. seems like forever). but then again, what do i know. i just ride the living $hit out of my stuff. | ||
| No_rice |
man i type slow... | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
But you make up for it with a prolific, well thought out perspective! Good post! R | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
got to get to wal-mart and get another batch of those Monza turbo mufflers for your bikes AAAAaaaaHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAaaaaaa! I knew it! Rob | ||
| No_rice |
an added note, what i have said about the TM muffler was not ment as a bash on someone elses product so please dont view it as that. thats really not my style, especially something ive never been around. now on that note, if i got one of them(or any other product for that matter) and it was a pile of junk i am one to state so. im not about to vouch for someone or something i dont believe in. all i have is my word(especially on something like the internet) and its important to me. i say what i think when i think it regardless of wether people like it or not. im the same way with my friends. i actually spent a LOOOONG time talking to Dris at homecoming and found him to be a pretty good guy. | ||
| Easyrider |
No Rice, The dyno never lies, I hope, people, can test there bike in The USA with our exhaust, lets see whats happening over there. The thing that counts for racers is torque and HP, in a RPM range where racers need is. I promise you, that is for street use also very Good. Lot's of torque at low RPM. At the end what counts is, is the customer happy. The customer can be a racer, dragracer, streetracer, or daily driver, or dyno testers. I am really happy with all feedback to make a better performing exhaust. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Geez...still no answers, only defensive responses. After all the previous pipes...why should any potential customer take any word without proper education and q/a's? Is previous pushrod and HD experiences expected, by those sponsoring herein, to get by with customers/owners coming from Italian, Japanese and other engine designs/brands? "You" want a $k for a pipe, no problem, prove with data why. "You" start a thread and then admit to a lie with it seemingly as a joke...ok but what did that do to help here? "You" pay for sponsorship here, learn from others here and then post ads voicing the way you do things like it has been your way all along...ok but don't be so quick to judge. Just post credible data relevant to the thread so that you do not call those better in the know out to help defend consumers that might not have the balls to publicly question "you", "your" post(s) and/or "your" product or service. FWIW, previous "developed" exhausts cannot be given away now. Some have even been wondered to being the cause to why a handful(?!) of 1125 engines have been wounded. No tuning required with this one? Great, prove it with honest data and back it up like any good business should do. Again, I hope "you all" sell thousands of the Drummer and understand the tuning within a modified Helicon. I also hope that the sponsored tuners make dyno and shop $'s within this cause. Why we have to keep coming back to this type of posting BS is why some of us keep involved. Honestly, we are only trying to assist in HELPING this sport, this brand, this motorcycle effort and those involved. If any reader takes this post in a negative way then he/she should look in the mirror. With the above said, may we get back to the thread and the info related to it. mm | ||
| No_rice |
With the above said, may we get back to the thread and the info related to it. mm well with that being said, then this is an update on how he likes it post. not a how he should really tune it post... looked in that mirror yet?  .... | ||
| Ponti1 |
I see both sides of the argument...This should be conducted as healthy debate, and not viewed as personal attacks though. Here are some quick thoughts, just to promote discussion. I have no particular side chosen, but would definitely like to see this play out in a productive manner. It does nobody any good to agree to disagree. Why were the other exhausts not scrutinized in the same manner? Completely valid question. My guess is that they didn't post huge gains, so the main customers are those that "just want a pipe", "just want any small gain", or those that "just want something loud". Why do we not have more data, or any '08 AFV info for comparison? Also, completely valid questions. I think the answer to the lack of '08 AFV is that BuellGator is the only '08 owner in possession of the pipe, and has not been on any of the forums where I usually see him post. I personally doubt that there's a conspiracy, though it certainly makes for interesting discussion. I would guess he's busy, as he said he is. Why no additional data from dyno testing? What specifically is it being requested, and what are the reasons for the request? It seems to me that, once we factor gains of both best run OEM versus best run Drummer, the gains are well within the realm of possibility. Need for dyno testing on a different dyno? Maybe, since the room is described as having inadequate ventilation, and there are differing opinions as to what effect that could have. However, won't that happen in due time, by other owners? I'm sure I missed lots of things...The threads have been LONG, and I have poor short term memory. Let's bring up all the points for both pro and con, and discuss them objectively. | ||
| No_rice |
"You" pay for sponsorship here, learn from others here and then post ads voicing the way you do things like it has been your way all along...ok but don't be so quick to judge. i myself am curious ast to the story behind that post?????? | ||
| Ds_tiger |
I love my CR! I love my Drummer! I love you all!!!  | ||
| Clarkjw |
Fine, just be careful. I can't imagine such different AFV's are good for your crank. | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
Huh, huh, he said, "crank" Huh, huh.... Rob | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
How has a discussion about the 1125 Drummer become such a "my gun is bigger than your gun" debate. It is going to be a great muffler. The fact is that there are those who tune to achieve numbers regardless of how he bike performs. My answer to that is, I can't do it that way, it just doesn't work. Tuning and Dyno Tuning can be two very different things. We are not riding a Dyno down through turn six with a trailing throttle, then rolling it open at the apex. Kevin builds mufflers that will kick you in the ass when you twist it open. I Dyno tune bikes using his mufflers so that when you do roll or snap the throttle open it's ready to do what he designed it to do. Sure I care about power and torque, but not at the price of a good clean running engine. I guess I believe if our customers make good decisions about the bike configuration the bike will be tuneable and numbers will be what they are and I have no problem with that. Terry - JT&S Performance | ||
| Ds_tiger |
My this post is taking itself into new realms of "I do" ..."He does" Lighten up just a little here folks. Its a bike with a pipe that one guy likes If this is a "this is my livelyhood so I take it seriously" forum Gee- maybe we need a place to post other than this spot, one for articulated scientific banter and debate rather than the same post we're replying to that also debates "which color is the fastest" FWIW Steve | ||
| Ponti1 |
Let's not dismiss the debate...It's a valid one. Let's talk through the points of said debate. Kevin builds mufflers that kick ass" is not in question for the XBs, simply because it is proven as fact. The specifics of this particular discussion are pertaining to an all new pipe for the 1125. All new engine, all new specs. | ||
| No_rice |
Gee- maybe we need a place to post other than this spot, one for articulated scientific banter and debate rather than the same post we're replying to that also debates "which color is the fastest" lol, thats along the lines of what ive been thinking for awhile now. it seems like half of the posts i open end up not being about anything to do with the original post. instead they all get transformed into something like this one has. i am all for knowledge, and im all for voicing your opinion. but damn i am not for someone constantly trying to shove it down my throat no matter where i look... the great thing about this forum is that any member can start their own post about basically whatever they want instead of trying to take over everyone elses post. if so many people wanted to have the conversation about tuning and afv and all that stuff thats perfectly fine. wouldnt someone have started their own post about it and carried it on there? heck, this board even has this cool feature called the knowledge vault and that section even has this neat place called engines. in that place there is a sub topic called fuel systems. seems like there are alot of topics on tuning and jetting and stuff like that there for some reason. (although there is this cool section on exhausts in there also lol. never said i was that great at implementing that section either) | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Don't want to start another round, but the Dyno is only a tool, it can help, hinder, brag or even lie. There are different methods of calculating both HP & TQ and different brands use each for their own purpose. Some advertise "Honest Horsepower" while others are considered to "Happy" meaning they like them selves a little or a lot. One of the major Dyno shops here in the bay area uses step tuning and a three gas set-up. And while I have never seen a AFM rider use step RPMS through a turn, I will be tuning Jimmy's big 350 HP turbo using brake specific HP/Fuel Flow. But again I find my self guilty of hi-jacking a thread about Kevin's new muffler, sorry K. Terry | ||
| No_rice |
Let's not dismiss the debate...It's a valid one. Let's talk through the points of said debate. im not about to say your wrong because i dont believe you are. i am just sick and tired of looking at the bitching no matter what thread i open. common sense would make me think one of those people would have started their own thread about the topic along time ago and made a point of trying to keep it open. heck, if they dont get the traffic they are looking for in that thread there might even be a polite way of trying to get some more responses to it. such as sending the person you would like to comment on your post a pm and asking them to take a looksee. or maybe just maybe even posting on something like this thread and politely asking them here if they would mind seeing if they have a comment on the other post about the other subject that had been started. then when i have the time or the interest to sit down and sift through that i will. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
So to any Moderator out there seeing all this please drop me a PM. I have had an idea like no-rice's for a while but want to bounce it off the wall a few times before someone on the board throws it back at me. Terry | ||
| Ponti1 |
True that...Point taken, and agreed with. I hate, probably more than most, all the bitching on this forum. WAY too much opinionated bickering. I think the Drummer is probably being placed under excessive scrutiny, and I think the fans of the Drummer are also being overly defensive, so I thought I'd throw out a request for level playing field. However, you're absolutely correct that a new thread would have been the right way to do that. This one had a specific purpose, and I apologize to the original poster for my part in taking that away. My overly-long post above stands, and anyone wanting to talk further about it can expect me as a participant in the new thread that gets started. Peace out (pouring a little out for the exhausts that didn't make it).... | ||
| No_rice |
so anyway steven, how many miles did you have on that bike when you put the pipe on and how many have you put on it now that you installed the drummer? i am assuming you wear a helmet when you ride. how is the sound in the helmet when your riding? i know my d&d(on an xb though) really resonated in my helmet and would bug me after a bit of riding(although it sounded wicked). the drummer i replaced it with still has a great tone but doesnt seem to hit the frequencey(or something like that) that bothered my ears so bad after a long ride. ium wondering how the 1125 pipe is treating you when it comes to things like that. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
edit-moved to technical details thread (Message edited by fresnobuell on February 26, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
+1,000 Tim (No Rice)! | ||
| Blake |
I'd not put much stock in "experts" poo-pooing the positive results of others. The folks at Drummer have a solid longstanding reputation for providing products that perform exactly as advertised. Folks with no product of their own on the market facing scrutiny are laughable when they show up trying to deride the honorable and sincere efforts of others. | ||
| Spectrum |
Seems like we tend to forget common courtesy and proper etiquette when it comes to internet forums. I manage a large number of "business professionals" in my day job. One of the things I have to remind folks of from time to time is "we praise publicly and criticize privately". If you have questions (want more information) it's perfectly fine to ask in a forum. If it's on topic for a thread post your question else create a new thread. If you have issues or criticism, send a PM. Public berating someone in an internet forum or other wise is just disrespectful behavior. More importantly if you don't have any skin in the game you have no grounds to stand on. If you don't like someone's product or service then don't buy it. If you bought it and are dissatisfied then try to work it out privately. Public criticism should be a last resort and only for those that have had a direct business link, a legitimate unresolved complaint and have exhausted all other options to negotiate a solution. (Message edited by spectrum on February 26, 2009) | ||
| Ds_tiger |
No Rice- I have 300 miles on the bike since installing the Drummer- I had a Jardine on there for 2000 miles before that. Stock one got jettisoned early on. I do wear a helmet, and earplugs (regardless of the bike I am riding- loud or quiet). As I mentioned the pipe has a very satisfying aural quality to it: Aggressive, and deeper than the Jardine. It is loud though. I would imagine most folks that can put up with a pipe with more "personality" that stock will love the sound. If you like Drummer on an XB (like I did) and you are pumped up about the 1125 in my opinion, you will more than likely really like the sound of the pipe. If you like moderate or quiet- I haven't heard any pipe on the 1125 that will suit to date. I live in the Texas Hill Country- just outside of Austin: If someone want to hear it- I ride almost every weekend here and there- I can certainly hook up with a local Bad Webber and they can share their thoughts on it. (I already have one request to do just that) I posted this because it seems that so many people were dragging along on the original Drummer exhaust post for the 1125, and so many people saying that they were wanting/ waiting for one- well, honestly, that some of the pictures and riding impressions would be nice to see > since I got the first one. Steve | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
Here is an answer!!!!!!!!!!!!! The drummer on the 1125 bike yes its high and yes its nice. That pipe will be 100% fine. There was a lot more development than most people will ever know on the pipe. The ecm is well with in scale and adjust perfectly to the pipe once mounted. You dont need to re-tune the bike. Again the ecm will learn the pipe fine. No re-tune is necessary for the pipe. you can retune to get even more out of the bike but thats a personal decision not needed as a bolt on. The pipe is not a slip on its a mid pipe and muffler. Kevin Drummer is one hell of a guy and went through great measures to make it. its expensive. It has the correct lengths in each part designed by him. numbers were ran through many programs then backed up with proven measures. once all was said and done it was made. this was not a winged project. I know that for a fact. I would not run logos or pipes from him myself if it was a issue on the ecm's. There are no issues on his pipe and the stock ecm on the 1125 bikes. Its one hell of a improvement the best out there. Bolt it on ride it 30 mins and the ecm is learned and ready to give it all it has. note: a lot of the mass produced companies are making a ascetic looking pipes. True, but its not the correct length or size tube to make power. tube length before the collector barrel size and length tip length and angle all go into it. the length of a pipe sets the revision point get it right super be off as little as a 1/2 inch and it a totally different story. Kevins pipe is correctly made for the stock engine components. bore, cams, stroke, valve sizes, and ect. if I had a 1125r my bike would have the drummer just because its correct lengths. mine would be blacked out though except for the very tip. a shiny ring. mike | ||
| Ds_tiger |
... this thread...  | ||
| No_rice |
lmao |
