| Author |
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 08:32 am: | 
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That wouldn't be ethical either. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 08:33 am: |
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Ping me with an email to sales at americansportbike dot com and I'll reply with the details. I don't have map stuff up on the website.
Do the right thing and remove any/all proprietary Buell ECM data from your site. Anything less is unethical.
Not understanding the difference between the two.
Both sell the data. One stores it for others to restore their bike for free and that is a problem? |
Xoptimizedrsx
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:51 pm: |
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everyone is always chasing me. well add to the list. i have found a few places doing the same thing.
http://www.musclecross.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id= 290
there is 6 places total hosting backup files if you totally mess yours up and forgot to save it. allowing you to start over with a tps rest after uploading.
i am not the only one.
mike |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 03:56 pm: |
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I don't give away or sell Buell's race ECM or stock ECM data. It isn't mine to do that with. Every race ECM map that gets to someone that didn't pay for it takes money from Buell. It isn't ethical, and we as a rule don't do it. If someone wants a race ECM, I'll sell them a race ECM, one that I paid Buell for to resell.
The maps that we sell are maps that were developed on a dyno by Terry at HD/Buell of Vallejo, or his new shop JT&S Performance. Considerable time is spent on every map that we sell, and Terry's and my bikes have been thrashed hard to develop these maps. When you buy a map from American Sport Bike, you're paying us (Terry and me) for that time, expertise, and wear and tear on our bikes for developing a map for a very specific combination of bike year/model/exhaust/intake.
Al |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:49 pm: |
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So is every fuel table, ignition table and eprom setting changed?
If not then you are in fact doing exactly what Xopti is doing.
Wrong. One is providing an exact unaltered copy of proprietary coding. American Sport Bike is providing 100% custom coding only that is superimposed upon the existing ECM coding.
I have no problem with what is happening.
Then your ethics are questionable.
It is the one rule for one and another for others that gets my goat.
The same rules apply equally for all here. Period. Your goat has no standing in how this site is run. If you don't like it, you are free to avoid, depart, whatever.
Blake
(Message edited by Blake on February 12, 2009) |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 07:40 pm: |
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Xoptimisedrsx - "everyone is always chasing me"
Please. You misunderstand the system, give wrong advice based on your misunderstandings and are unethical to boot.
__________________
Thanks Al! |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 08:39 pm: |
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I'm sure glad Powercommander offers MANY assorted maps for FREE.Glad my Ducati dealer E-mailed a custom map to me...............for FREE.
Sad that some poor Buell owner is stranded and everyone here can only argue patent law |
Turk
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 10:45 am: |
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If Powercommander offers their maps for free, that's up to them. If your dealer sent you a custom map from them, not Ducati, that's their call.
Sad that some poor Buell owner is stranded
How did they get stranded? By screwing around with the map in the first place (fine, but they should know what their doing and if they don't, that's on them)? If there's something wrong with their bike, their dealer can help them out. If they messed up the map, the dealer can reflash their bike for them and can rightfully charge them for fixing something they messed up, just like anything else. If you want to tinker, it's part of the risk you run. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 11:42 am: |
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carefully,and respectfully.
As an owner of Buell motorcycles i feel i have two licenses to the stock software map.
I feel entitled.If i have a licensed version of Windows and my disk gets damaged they'll supply a copy to me.Yes?
Fact is people are going to tinker.It's an affinity to some.
I'm off to tear out my oil pump drive gear.
Hope the guy gets resolution |
Turk
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 12:05 pm: |
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Simple resolution to a simple problem. If the guy needs a map to tune from, he can start with the stock map (like Gunter said, if he can't do it from that, any other map isn't going to change it). If he already messed with it and needs to get it fixed, go to the dealership and get it reflashed. It will likely cost a couple of bucks, but it's the risk of tinkering. Otherwise, for his combination, go to the dealer and buy a race ecm.
I'm off to tear out my oil pump drive gear.
And if all goes well, great. But if it goes wrong for some unforeseen reason (let's say for the sake of argument you turn the nut the wrong way and break the shaft), do you agree that you took that risk and so if you need to purchase a replacement, that cost is on you? |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 09:37 pm: |
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Anonymous,
With respect at least the guy is trying to fix the problem and trying to make the bikes run right.
After 18 months of ownership my dealer still does not give a shit and wonders why I only turn up for warranty work.
I bought the bike off them brand new despite being able to pick up the same bike second hand cheaper to keep the business local.
Every time it comes back from them there is something else scratched, stripped running rough etc.
If you guys do understand the system how about you tell the dickheads who sell the bike so they can deal with the issues instead of us owners having to become computer programmers etc just to enjoy what we own. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 04:36 pm: |
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Anonymous? |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 07:53 am: |
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Surely as an Anonymous poster you will still reply to your above statement.
Or perhaps a Troll has slipped in? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 10:36 am: |
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I'm confused as to what I should be responding to. Someone trying to make the bikes run "right"? Whether or not they understand the system (which he doesn't) is irrelevant on the topic of distributing stolen data or claiming to understand it all so well and that everyone is chasing him. Your relationship with your dealer and why you bought your bike there instead of a used one? What does that have to do with this discussion? The fact that you say your bike comes back scratched up or with something stripped? How is that relevant to this topic? If you have an issue with your dealership that sounds like a separate topic.
If your bike is has running issues, the dealer network is trained to address it. Of course, if you refer to them as "dickheads" you might fall a bit down the priority list just a bit. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 03:10 am: |
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Mate, I do not know what fantasy land you live in or where you are from.
From the day of purchase my bike has run like a ratshit Russian combine harvester.
The five times I took it back to the dealer about its erratic operation I was told that it was all in my mind and 'Thats just how they are' 'They put something in the fuel tank that makes them run rough' and so on.
The front tyre was continuously wearing on one side and was told 'It must be how you are riding it' by their tyre fitter(The right fork was not seated into the top clamp properly).
I have replaced the O2 sensor, the AIT sensor once each and the ETS no less than three times.
The ambient temp when running is no where near the real air temp so it is either the AIT that is stuffed or that it is continuously affected by heat soak.
I had the race ecm installed by the dealer and as a result one of the bolts that holds it and the headlight assembly was overtightened and stripped the fairing bracket it mounts to.
The list goes on.
The point is this - If it ran right or the dealer had a clue of how to fix it then their would be no need to ferret into the ecm to find a way to fix the thing at all.
The other stuff certainly adds to the frustration that clouds what could certainly be a world beater of a bike.
I believe in 'If it aint broke-don't fix it'.
Unfortunately for you this bike and the attitude from the supposedly 'supportive dealership' really is not in the class the bike deserves.
As an aside - I really enjoyed the post about the US soldier giving the local Iraq police a good ass kicking - I bet he would be pissed as off as I am about the semantic bullshit that has eminated from this topic.
No doubt he has his hands tied more times than is needed by beurecrats who must have all the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
Ubique.
(Message edited by Bombardier on February 08, 2009) |
Xoptimizedrsx
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 08:43 am: |
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the statement in everybody is chasing me.
it seems that i am the one that is doing the wrong thing when its clear others are doing the same. i know for fact as i have posted before. sponsors here do give out the stock data if needed.
if what i was doing was so wrong then i would not be allowed to host the few files i have.
i dont host the eprom break down or any other related data from the ecm. as to what every bite is and what it does.
i wont. it will make a mess of things.
I have the eprom dumps and the binary data as to what is on and off. this is all over the ecm. some things turned off turn into other features.
i know there are some that feel by me having a starting point from a used ecm data is wrong. thats your opinion.
why is it I am pointed out to be the only one doing it. when Its not just me.
or is it i dont sponsor here? so that makes me the target when known sponsors are doing the same thing but in emails.
if you want to point fingers look at your own hand there is 4 pointing right back at you. there is more than one guilty bird.
also seems anonymous has no balls. he has to hide behind a name link. whusss
i post on this forum. but man i know i dont have to. but i do. this is the hardest form to see the diverse knit picky argumentative group. why cant everybody get along. its almost like a pack of teen aged girls. it kills me. god forbid a newbee asked a question we all know there will be some jerk give a remark pointing down to him. be friendly or dont speek if you cant. its a small world and we only live once. have fun be safe and be good to thy neighbors. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 06:13 am: |
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What you are doing is unethical. Period.
That others unknown to BadWeB may also operate unethically is irrelevant.
The solution is simple. Remove public access to the proprietary ECM mapping. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 06:21 am: |
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"also seems anonymous has no balls. he has to hide behind a name link. whusss "
That is 100% inaccurate. Anonymous has very valid and reasonable justification for avoiding exposure of his/her identity.
Your derisive ad-hominem personal comment is out of line. That it is followed by a plea for everyone to get along is hypocritical.
I personally would not be at all displeased if you ceased posting here on BadWeB. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 07:36 am: |
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It has been fun but I will not be posting here again.
It would seem that free speech is not quite as free as some would have you believe. |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 04:58 pm: |
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Something to consider.....
If someone measures a stock cylinder and passes the info on to another owner, is that somehow an infringement?
Ok, now if someone reads the size of the main jet on a carb - and passes it along or publishes it - is that infringement?
Now, if the jet size isn't marked and the guy measures the jet and and publishes the info, is that infringement?
So, how is the jet size (and you can extend it to ignition timing / curve) any different than a fuel (or spark) map? Do you REALLY want me to believe that publishing a file that contains "10,12,24,23,20" is really that different than saying "10,12,24,23,20"?
The reality with a lotta this stuff is that nobody is buying software when they buy a vehicle. At least not in their mind. The privilege to tune, retune, or restore anything that determines state of tune can be argued to be a spec that should be made well known. Besides, are the manufacturers in the business of writing software or selling vehicles?
Seriously, the video game industry has released the freakin' specs to not only make new maps / playfields, but to extend the actual games with new logic, etc. id Software even released the freakin' SOURCE CODE to all of Quake a few years back. THEY'RE IN THE BUSINESS OF WRITING AND SELLING SOFTWARE!
By the letter of whatever law and possibly by whatever Terms of Service one may sign when purchasing a vehicle (seriously, I don't know), maybe it's illegal. but calling it unethical!?!?!?!? WTF.... Time to remove all cam specs, jet sizes, etc from this site if that's the case.
I understand that guys like Al and Terry spent lots of valuable time as well as vehicular floggage building these maps. I feel that they should be compensated. But sometimes when you bump into something that seems to defy enforcement, it may simply be time to reevaluate how that fits into your business. The entertainment folks are FINALLY just starting to figure it out with this obscure and annoying "internet" thing.
-Saro |
Aidan203
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:56 pm: |
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If I post a question lets say regarding a torque spec. and someone gives it to me because I diden't buy the "Buell manual" isn't that considered "stealing" info from buell. It's all the same. Its just help when we need it. |
Ithaca280
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 09:15 pm: |
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All I know is this, Terry re-mapped my XB-1050S and it runs much better than the race ECM did. After doing much work to my bike it runs great and I got what I paid for. Not to mention, Terry is a great guy who will talk to you and help anytime he can and I was happy to pay for his knowledge. Go ask a lawyer for free advice and let me know how that works out for you. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 11:28 pm: |
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There are competing interests here.
Fair Use Doctrine and copyright / patent law are an agreement between society at large and individuals that create things.
Its a given that creative things are virtually impossible to protect.
Its a given that without the ability to derive benefits from creative works, many fewer creative works will be created.
We in the US, with the force of law and through the government, made an agreement that laws will give you "rights" to things you create in limited ways for a limited time. The "copy protection" is that it is simply illegal to copy and distribute things you do not have "rights" to. In exchange, you create things and release them, and stop fussing when your "rights" expire. You then turn over everything to everyone for any purpose.
Thats why copyright / patent law exists, and thats why they expire. It's a balance thought to give the best benefit to all.
And for the record, both sides abuse the system badly. Copyright owners game the system to try and get "more" rights. Pirates freely distribute things illegally. |
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Need Eprom (fuel maps) for 05 xb9s with Jarine, K&N and air-box mod.
