| Author | Message | ||
     No_rice |
so the end to last year and the begining of this year is just plain sucking. about a month ago we had to put a power steering rack in the gf's beretta, about 2 weeks ago had to put a new head gasket in my 94 plymouth acclaim(2.5 4cyl) now last night it was extremely icy so i drove the gf to work in my blazer. went back later to pick her up. so far so good. about a half hour later went out and got in the blazer to drive him and it started then died. every time i tried to start it it would fire then die for about 10-15 minutes. then all the sudden it fired up and ran fine. drove the 15 miles back home with no problem. hmm well, got me. now on to the real problem. today i was driving the hour to go see my daughter. about half way there the plymouth dies. going down the road about 65 and thats it. just stops running. i coasted to the side and tried starting it for awhile while my dad was on the way to tow me. nothing at all. it just cranks over. take the air cleaner off and cant seem to make the throttle body spray fuel when i open it. he shows up and we dump a bit of fuel in the throttle body. fires right up and idles away. ok, so we decide to try and drive it to my dads. make it about a mile and it up and dies again. now we dump a little fuel in the throttle body and it fires then dies. no go so we drag it the rest the way. start messing with it and cant seem to still get any fuel. i am pretty sure i used to hear the pump kick on when i would turn the key and now nothing. no one around has a relay for it they all have to order one. $55 frikin dollars for a relay... so i go and check the wires running to the fuel pump in the tank. no power. hmm, ok. so i decide there are only 2 wires. one should be power and the other ground(now i wonder if maybe it has 2 powers and the pump grounds its self? didnt try that) so i try running a hot mire to it and grounding the other wire. nothing. no whinning from the pump. i am getting power to the fuel gauge right beside it though. i look at the coloring of the pump wires(one green with black stripe, and one black) and go back up to the relays. find the relay that has the green with black strip wire(for some reason there are 2 of them hooked into the same connector though so im not sure where that other wire runs to). i run a hot wire to that relay wire and now i have power at the back to the pump. still no running of the pump though. im not sure what feeds power into that relay and out to that green wire that runs to the back though, but obviously its not feeding it power. i realize its POSSIBLE, but what are the odds of the pump frying and taking the relay with it? i get a couple codes to flash on the check engine light, but im not sure how correct the description of those codes is. my info i could find is older. i get a 52 "oxygen sensor stuck @ rich position" 13 "map sensor or vacuum line may not be working". now some of the vacuum lines were replaced bacause they were completely shot when the head gasket was redone. but how would that affect the fuel pump. the map sensor (from what ive read) could make it so there is no power sent to pump. but im still stuck with a pump that doesnt work even when i hook seperate power to it(as long as one wire is power and one ground) any brilliant ideas? with a $55 relay and a $150 dollar fuel pump and who knows what else im not about to start throwing parts at it. ive heard of inertia switches giving out and shutting the fuel down also, but im not even sure it has one. | ||
| Xbduck |
Noise from the fuel pump can be heard better by opening the fuel door and removing the gas cap. Now as to the relay, I tend to look for another somewhere else that is exactly the same and I know is good and then swap it. After that check for power with the key on. As for the inertia or rollover switch, it would be found in the trunk of the car and its location should be on one side or the other and well marked, pull out the carpet a little to find it. If its tripped or dead no power will even get to your relay. So I guess I'd say start there and work through the relay to the pump testing as you go. Sorry I have no greater wisdom to bestow, an electrical problem is a true PITA. One other thing is that sometimes a big bump in the road can trip the rollover switch so try just resetting it first. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"what are the odds of the pump frying and taking the relay with it?". . . . .Oh, pretty good. In dissecting my 170K miles pump,I found the actual pump mechanical part(about as big as a stack of 4 quarters)to be virtually brand new in condition, but the drive motor was shot. If it stuck on you(shorted), it very well could take the relay with it. Most likely,it would stick the contacts shut and then take out the coil. Cooling off, the contacts popped back open, but the coil can no longer energize the contacts. (Just an educated guess) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Stating the obvious here, but have you checked the fuses? (You don't mention it in your post.) What's the weather like there? could the pump be frozen? Have you picked up a load of contaminated fuel? You may have a fuel blockage between pump & throttle body, frozen filter maybe, if the line is still under pressure the pump won't kick in. Don't know if it's an external or immersed pump on that model, if immersed they're a PITA, usually tank out. For an older car I rarely fit new parts (except wear items obviously) usually go to the breakers. If it's a known model fault, they'll know by the demand for the part & price accordingly. | ||
| Tom_k |
I don't think MAP and O2 have any control over pump, only provide info to computer. Start with the fuel filter. If I recall correctly it should be a fist sized can located under the right side of the car ahead of the rear tire. I've had (and have) a bunch of Chrysler products of this vintage, and if they aren't getting fuel and the in-tank pump is cycling this is usually the problem. The filters have a "quick connect" style attachment, so you will have to buy a little tool to unlock it or get creative and improvise something. I've had a couple of rusted through fuel lines cause the no fuel at the throttle body, too. Even a small pin hole in the line will cause the pump to lose prime. My money is on a plugged filter. As for the fault codes about the MAP and O2 sensors: Does the car get less mileage than you think it should or smell like it is running rich? My daughters '93 Duster started getting poor mileage, got harder to start and wouldn't stay running, then just failed to start at all (she didn't mention any of this until it quit running completely). I got both of those fault codes and replaced both items: starting and mileage problems solved! When I've had problems with these cars it is USUALLY simple stuff. Hope this helps. | ||
| Ratbuell |
If you're not getting the pump cycle at key-on, you have a power issue or a dead pump. Filter makes no difference - you should hear the whine when you turn the key from off to on. I can check when I get home, but I think the only books I have are '91 (for my 91 Daytona CS Turbo). Same fuel system, though...I'll see if it lists placement for the ASD (AutoShutDown) relay. Yes, pump replacement is tank-out - it's submerged. Check turbododge.com, turbo-mopar.com, fwdperformance.com, or turbosunleashed.com - they're all turbo websites, but like I said, the pumps and tanks are the same for TBI/turbo. You can usually find a decent deal from one of the sites if you look (the first 2 are message boards like badweb). | ||
| Etennuly |
I'm with Grumpy. Two vehicles, same problem, same time, I gotta think you got gas with water in it and it froze in the tank/pump/filter/injector-tb/or line. I had a GM p-u do that once, it iced in the little hose between the pump and the exit tube, split the little buggar. Start/quit, start/quit, no go. | ||
| No_rice |
checked all the fuses, no one has a relay around here so i will have to order one if thats the decision i make. the only thing i cant seem to remember and my dad doesnt either is checking that green/black wire for power at the relay. im sure it doesnt though, because once i run a hot wire to it at the relay i get power on the test light back at the pump. i am pretty dang sure i could always hear that pump when i turned the key on, before i would start it. either way now laying under the car and running power straight to it i cant get it to hum. i took the filter off also and it was full of fuel. the lines also drained fuel out when i unhooked them from the filter. tried running the pump with no filter attached and nothing would come out even with the hotwire job. i did think maybe a blockage there. thought maybe it had enough pressure built it just wouldnt kick on. doesnt seem to be the case unless it is in the short line from pump to filter. it has been right at freezing around here that last couple days. had an ice storm so the roads are slicker than i remember them being for along time, but warm enough that the water would bead up on the cars instead of freeze right away. i have kind of hoped that the pump or something froze. its sitting in a heated shop so i guess we will see. i dont have to much faith though since it seems as though im not even getting power to the relay that runs the pump. so both the pump(hot wired and still no running) and the relay seem as though they may be culprits since the green/black wire running out of the relay to the pump isnt getting power either. the mileage has seemed to be down a little, and a couple times i thought it smelled a little fuelie recently. but even with that, i wouldnt see it not running though. it has been harder starting though, which i just atributed to the fact that now it has the correct compression(previous mechanic cobbled 2 headgaskets in it) and its not bleeding compression between cylinders. i have thought of the bad fuel problem. both vehicles got gas at the same station. both had a full tank. the blazer had been full for awhile but i dont drive it everyday. the plymouth i filled less than an hour before and had probably gone about 40 miles before it just suddenly konked out. no running problem on the way that i noticed before hand. | ||
| No_rice |
damn blazer is dead too. took a few tries to get it started then it ran for about 5 min an died. will fire and run and die right away. got it to run for a bit. idled so i have it some gas and it ran fine for a few min then started to sputter and then run fine again. then nothing. wont even fire. i put some heet in the fuel system and that was before i was able to get it to run for awhile the last time. then it died and wouldnt restart. i can hear the fuel pump kick on though. but not always. if i crank it over for a while and it wont run. when i stop and turn the key back on the fuel pump doesnt run. but... let it sit for awhile and then try it and it will fire and die. and you can hear the fuel pump. i am on my way to go get a fuel filter and some new line(damn fittings are froze to the line even though i got them loose from the filter). i am hoping that it is just clogged and after sitting a bit it has bled some fuel through and lets the blazer fire. i am thinking maybe thats why the pump will run then to because it has lost some pressure between it and the filter. this is all wishful thinking and still doesnt address the damn plymouth though. ugh. im running out of vehicles fast. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I think you are on the right path with the Blazer if you hear the pump. The Plymouth is DOA. My pump installation instruction sheet said the pump will go about 160K. I had 170K. Brushes ate the commutator and............dead! | ||
| No_rice |
lol, well the plymouth has 155,500 miles on it. garage is in the basement, so the house smells like fuel somewhat. jenn is already pissy about it and i havent even cut the fuel lines yet...  (she really loved it when i spent 3 days painting the 9 in the garage mid winter also) just got back from oreilly's. off to the garage again. | ||
| No_rice |
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGG I CANT FN WIN. well as of right now the blazer is running. wouldnt start with the new filter very well so i sprayed some more fuel in the throttle body. fired up and ran well. then started to sputter and then died. repeated procedure and this last time it ran for a good 5 minutes and then i shut it off to finish up mounting the clamp on the fuel filter. hit the key and fired right back up. YIPPIE i think to myself. until i am backing out of the garage and the brake pedal is spongy and the brake light comes on. WTF WTF WTF. look under it and theres a puddle of brake fluid. about 6 inches from where i was working on the fuel line one of the brake lins now sprung a leak. wiggling stuff around must have cracked a rusty spot. ******************************************* edit, i started typing the first part as the blazer was running. it died after about 10 minutes. got it started again and after it struggeling a bit it ran for maybe another 10 minutes or so. then its dead and wont run again. im loosing ground instead of gaining. i siphoned about 5 gallons of gas out of my nice full fuel tank. have to find some more cans to borrow and then one to fill up with some different fuel to see if maybe the gas is just crud. atleast thats my latest idea?.?.?.?. currently the blazer is the one getting the attention because its the one in my garage. the plymouth is an hour away in my dads shop. still at a loss on that one i am getting very frustrated.  so far the tahoe is still running. that thing has a full tank to but i cant remember for sure where i filled it. and jenns grand marquis has a full tank and is running good but that got filled at a different station. | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
The blazer is famous for bad fuel pumps. It is common for them to be able to start and then die. The fuel pressure is most likely 3 or 4 psi below the minimum required to run. I am a mechanic and put them in real regular. Good news is they are pretty easy. Bad news is they run about $400. Im having the same luck as you. It started with my coffee pot leaking all over the counter and went down hill from there. The bearings in the head on the vaccum and melted the plastic...Junk. Then the trans nuked on my dually taking the transfer case with it. As Im laying on my back pulling the trans out in the garage my daughter comes running into the garage telling me the washing machine is flooding the house. Ive dropped 2 grand in the last 2 weeks just to get my things back to the way they were. | ||
| Xb12mel |
Hey man, I feel your pain. i've got a 96 Dodge Caravan with about 230K miles on it. I'm on my 3rd Fuel Pump. One other thing to keep an eye out for is a sensor on your tranny (if it's an automatic) once after changing a fuel pump it still didn't run, so after all else i changed the engine. (just happened to have a spare) and it wasn't even that. It was this dang little sensor that sends information to the ECM to let it know that the fly wheel was turning. (It's part of the ASD circuit) It cost me $400 to replace a $24 sensor at the dealer after the engine swap to find that out. Just a couple more options for you to try. Another good resource is www.allpar.com. look in the repair forum / tech help section. (Requires registration) Good luck man! | ||
| Ulywife |
i've got a 96 Dodge Caravan with about 230K miles on it. Oh, that gives me hope...my 96 Dodge Caravan has 156,000 and runs great. No_rice - good luck on your car issues. It really sucks when they all want to break down at the same time. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I was told to go with genuine GM fuel pumps as the after market ones are cheaper for a reason. Local shop has had many after market pumps fail and will now only use GM pumps. Mine retailed for $750.00! I got it from my local Chevy dealer for something like $450.00 ...the most expensive part I have ever bought in my 40 years of vehicles(Boo!). I never checked, but I don't think I got hosed......it was an emergency.....have to get to work every damned week day ,you know. (Message edited by just_ziptab on January 05, 2009) | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
I was told to go with genuine GM fuel pumps as the after market ones are cheaper for a reason. Not all aftermarket is junk. Ive never had a carquest fuel pump come back, ever. Ive literally installed easily over a hundred. (Message edited by rpm4x4 on January 05, 2009) | ||
| Froggy |
No_rice, when it rains it pours. It will all be worth it in the end. Hopefully you don't wind up hitting a deer on the first voyage after getting it all fixed. I remember my dads old Blazer, at one point we would occasionally have to tap on the fuel pump with a screwdriver in cold weather to get the thing to start. | ||
| No_rice |
thank god! i have signs of life. just got the new pump in the blazer. swaping the pump and un bolting the tank were the easy parts. you just can not get to those damn lines on top of the tank. just not enough slack to reach them. so i ended up cutting the lines infront of the axle and yanking it out. i used compresion fittings to hook them back together after the pump swap. man i kicked the pump on, waited a second and she fired right up. started it and let it run about 6 times for a few minutes each! only problem is i nicked the return line so im going to have to stick a new chunk in but i can get at that without to much effort. the tank is just held up by rachet straps now so i will have to still bolt it in right and then fix the brake line(what a pain) but its atleast kicking again! now i just have to drive a damn hour sometime soon and start on the acclaim... ugh. (Message edited by no_rice on January 08, 2009) |
